He Built a $B Travel Empire—Then Watched It Almost Disappear | G Adventures Founder Bruce Poon Tip

[00:00:12] When Sarah reached out, thank you to Sarah for helping us out with all of this. You have a lot of great staff on your team. I think that's the first thing I really want to say. Everyone I've met is incredible. From the guides that were on the ground in Jordan, by the way, some of my favorite people I've ever met. But then the staff here in Toronto have been incredible too.

[00:00:32] When I got to Jordan, I was thinking that G Adventures was going to be very similar to whatever else already exists in the market. And then I really got to experience a country that I've never been to, but I got to experience it in a way very different than any other travel I'd ever done. And I've gone on press trips and I've been to places just on my own dime and all those different things. And that was probably one of the core travel experiences I ever had.

[00:01:01] And then when you and I sat down and chatted, I really got to understand a little more about you in particular, how you actually built this thing. Because it's very easy for people to see what you've built now. But what they rarely see is... The struggle. Yeah. And I've seen the smirk on your face because I think you know exactly where I'm going with this. So why don't we start there? Firstly, if someone doesn't know,

[00:01:31] about you... Yeah. Who is Bruce and what do I need to understand about you to understand the man sitting in front of me? Me? Oh God, you've gone deep right away. Yeah. I thought we were talking about G Adventures. We will. We're going to get to it. I wanted to preface the conversation with that. I mean, I guess at the heart of who I am, I'm a passionate entrepreneur. And somewhere along the way, I guess I turned to a compassionate entrepreneur.

[00:01:56] And that was probably around 96, 97, which is so long ago. But I started G Adventures. I had three companies before I turned 16. So I was a bit of an unusual kid. I won a gold medal in Alberta for the pilot program of Junior Achievement back in the early 80s when I was 14 years old. And I started a bookmark business for the company's program, which is quite commonly run with Junior Achievement in schools now.

[00:02:19] But I was in the pilot program in Alberta. And I'm that kid. I'm just that kid still realizing, you know, when I started three businesses before I turned 16. But when I got a job, I got a job at Denny's and I got fired within two weeks. And then I got... So I got a job at McDonald's and I got fired during the training program. And it was really traumatic. I kind of say it as a joke now, but as a 16-year-old getting fired... It's a big deal.

[00:03:14] And how it can, you know, it's really leading change in the world right now. I mean, big NGOs aren't really the ones that are changing the world right now. It's entrepreneurs like Bill Gates, Ted Turner, you know, Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk, to a certain extent, love him or hate him, are really going to change the future of the world. And I'm just really passionate about that and how business transforms lives.

[00:03:39] Yeah. So walk me through how you decided to open up G Adventures. What was the catalyst behind it? What triggered all of that? Well, it was originally just me wanting to start a business. I moved to Toronto from Calgary with $800 in my pocket. And I told my... And my parents were against it. They're even threatening to disown me for leaving Calgary. I said, I'm just... I'm going to start a business in Toronto. I didn't want to be in Calgary. I didn't want to be... I wanted to be in the biggest...

[00:04:08] The biggest pond to be successful. I didn't know anyone. And I just knew I wanted to start a business and I was... But entrepreneurship didn't exist. The word entrepreneur didn't exist. We didn't have 27-year-old billionaires in 1990. So the idea... I didn't know... I didn't say I wanted to be an entrepreneur. I just knew I wanted to start a business.

[00:04:30] And when you... You know, when you're that young and you're guided by... You know, youth is wasted on the young. I always believe that. I wonder if today, if I'd be able to do what I did back then, but probably not. But I was passionate about... Doing something I loved. And I actually came to Toronto thinking I was going to start a record label. I actually did. And I actually kind of started to form one when Nirvana came out. Really? Okay.

[00:04:58] And changed the face of music. And the two things that I was passionate about were travel and music. And so I knew I was going to do one of those two things. Because I'd gone to tourism school back in Calgary. And that was my other passion. And then when I went traveling as a backpacker with a guidebook and doing it all myself, I realized that there was this, you know, a huge gap in the market between the mainstream traveler, which was cruise and compound resorts, which were, you know, putting people behind walls

[00:05:28] and creating, you know, like Western experiences while you're in other countries. Yeah. And then there was these backpackers that had guidebooks and were doing it themselves. Those are the ones that wanted these grassroots real experiences. And that was my eureka moment as an entrepreneur saying there's a space in that market between... Because I didn't really want to backpack and organize everything myself, but I was by the choice. Or I went on a coach tour, a compound resort or a cruise. Those are the other options at the time in 1990.

[00:05:53] And so my eureka moment was when I was backpacking, saying that there are young people with disposable income that want this organized for them and want that experience, that freedom and flexibility and independence, that cultural exchange you get from traveling on your own. But you don't want to organize it. Yeah. And that was when I came back and said, I could create something that no one has ever seen. And you have very rare moments like that as an entrepreneur.

[00:06:23] Steve Jobs had them every day, but other entrepreneurs have them once in a lifetime. Yeah. And you're lucky if you get one. Yes, exactly. So, okay. So you come up with the... You have your eureka moment. What happens next? How do you go from... And in the 90s too, right? The internet is not necessarily... There's no... People cannot imagine life before the internet. Right. Life before phones. Exactly. You've got no phone. Even a fax machine. How do you build a business in that environment?

[00:06:52] Well, at the time, it was to build my first trips. I'm going to take people on trips. And at the time, the concept really is organized backpacking. Right? Organized backpacking is what is in my mind. But when you think about it, like before fax machines were common even. My first... So I organized my first trips in Ecuador in South America. And, you know, I tell people this all the time that I made my first hotel reservations by mail.

[00:07:21] I mailed my request to a hotel. Oh my goodness. And it took three weeks. They mailed me back for a deposit. I went to the bank and got an international money order. I mailed back that money order. They sent me back a confirmation that I had these rooms holding for six months in advance. Wow. And then I showed up six months later with passengers. And then it was my job then to fill that group. And so I used to just... It was guerrilla marketing for me. I had no money. I was out at local travel schools, colleges.

[00:07:50] I had a longstanding... For those of your audience that are in Canada, we have MEC, Mountain Cook-Macoa. Every Wednesday I'd speak in the middle of their shoe department giving lectures on travel. And I'd spend all week putting posters up all on the walls down the streets of Toronto for people to come to my talks about this new revolutionary style of travel. And I had to get enough people. I had six months to get those reservations that I'd made by mail to take people on the first trip.

[00:08:19] And I got six people to sign up on my first trip. Yeah. Have you been in touch with any of those six people? Yeah. Yeah. I'm still in touch with... Not all of them, but as a matter of fact, I'm having a reunion in October with three of our original passengers who took my trips in the early 90s. Wow. When I didn't have anything, I'm still in touch with three of them. One of them has taken, I think, 80 trips with us now. 80? 80-something. Wow. And they still travel with us. Yeah.

[00:08:49] But these three are special. And I'm leading them personally on a road trip through Spain. I rented a Volkswagen van. And I'm putting them in the back of the van. And I'm celebrating my 35, 36 years and thanking them for believing in me all those years ago. Wow. Yeah. Good for you. 35 years. Yeah. What's the biggest lesson you've taken away after all those years? I mean, there's so many.

[00:09:18] But I think it's probably the lonely, but the evolution of leadership. That it's, that you're, you know, the most painful thing of, for an overconfident entrepreneur is the constant self-evaluation and the evolution of leadership that's needed to continually grow. So we've had 35 years of double-digit growth at G-Adventures. And the biggest challenge is always me, my ability to grow and completely evolve as a leader.

[00:09:46] Because there's been so many different chapters in my evolution. And I know that if I stop growing, the company will stall. I felt it at certain times in history where I wasn't comfortable or wasn't ready for the next chapter. And the entire company will stall. And it's really hard because to do what I do or to do what any entrepreneur does, you have to have a super, you have to have an unusual level of confidence.

[00:10:14] Some will say megalomanic like crazy or self, self, like, like, yeah. Yeah. You have to have an unusual self, a level of self-confidence, but you also have to have an unnatural tolerance for risk. Yeah. And those things come naturally. I don't think you can teach. I think, I think entrepreneurs are born generally and you can't teach it. And I've had this discussion because you can get a master's in entrepreneurship now in some schools, which I think is interesting.

[00:10:43] Just go in the business. That's your lesson. But that constant self-evaluation is painful for someone who's, who's overconfident or who's, who's self-centered like an entrepreneur. And that's why most entrepreneurs, you know, sell businesses after, you know, five years or 10 years because they reach the end of their capacity. And I've been doing it for the same company for 35 years. And I, every year evaluate, am I the best, am I the single best person in the world to lead this company? Because if there's someone better, I should step aside. Yep.

[00:11:11] And I have to promise that to the people that, that, you know, give their lives for my company every day. The hero's dilemma. Yeah. As a matter of fact, Forbes did a story on me. When you think about it, I think they did the story in 2010. It's called the founder's dilemma. Founder's dilemma. Sorry. That's the word that I was thinking of. And it was, it was celebrating my 20th anniversary. And the Forbes, Forbes magazine was questioning me back then at 20. Are you still the best leader for the business? And this, this leader, this, this, this writer came out of retirement to write the story.

[00:11:40] And I said, yeah, I am. I don't think anyone else could do what I'm doing right now. There's not a single person in the world that could lead this business right now through the things that I'm doing. And that's the standard that I keep. But that's why G Adventures has been amazing for 35 years. Because we, in the last 18 months, we've launched three of the best, the biggest launch product we've ever done in all my 35 years. But holding to that standard is what keeps me, you know, excited about coming to work every day.

[00:12:07] So how does a founder navigate the ego of, I, no one will do this better than me. And the self-awareness of maybe I do need to find someone who can do it better than me. Yeah. Like, how do you know when you're being egotistical and when you need to pull back from that? It's when you start losing your instincts, making decisions through instincts. So anyone can make decisions through data.

[00:12:35] Like, data will direct many companies. It'll tell you where to go. But the combination of instinct and data is where, like, extraordinary things happen. So right now, we are doing things that I know that no one else would have decided to do because data wouldn't send them in that direction. My instincts are telling me that we should do that. You know, the last three products that I talk about, G-LUX, Soloish, our National Geographic Signature Programs.

[00:13:04] These are programs that data would have never told you that we could do. But, and so if we're doing cool enough stuff that I know I'm the only person that could lead us through it, then I know I'm the only person that can take us through that. And it is fewer and far further between now, after 35 years, I must say. And I have two CEOs now that are making the main decisions in terms of direction of the business.

[00:13:30] And those products that I just mentioned were mainly, for the first time ever, were mainly their ideas. But when you think of some of the stuff that we've done as a company, whether it's Guaranteed Departures, Ripple Score, our, you know, our Trees for Days, these programs, they're so revolutionary, so innovative,

[00:13:54] that no one else could have ever led the company through these things and really created these ideas because data didn't take us there. It was instinct. And so, and these things are what make us special. And, you know, gee, I've never met another company in the world. And I ask all the time, and I know a ton of leaders of businesses that can say they've had double-digit growth for 35 years. Outside of the COVID years, of course, with us, we've had double-digit growth for 35 years.

[00:14:24] Which is understandable, a travel company, middle of the pandemic when no one's allowed to travel. Yeah. Outside of those two years, we've had 35 years, or 33 of our 35 years, now 36 years, of double-digit growth. And we are, we achieved that. And so, and that answers your question, that's a long answer to your question, but if we slipped into incremental growth, which is single-digit, five or six, there are a thousand leaders that are better than me to lead this company. There's no question in my mind. And I tell that to my people.

[00:14:53] If we're happy with just slipping into incremental growth with, you know, five or six percent, I hire these marketing people that talk about someone who came to me from KFC, and they hold champagne parties when they grow one and a half percent. That would kill me. And there's a hundred thousand people that would be better at leading my business than I am. But we're constantly have this change-your-dime mentality. We have a five-year window where every five years, we want to look back and be unrecognizable as a business.

[00:15:21] And to maintain that level of standard, I don't think there's another leader that can do it now. But I have to say, my next birthday is my 60th. I've had meetings internally within my people that I can feel that, you know, that there's the leaders in our business now that are really running the business. The leadership team that we have, our global leadership team that are so passionate to carry on the flame past me.

[00:15:49] All of our meetings right now, all of our decisions, and I'm guiding my entire leadership team to think about the next hundred years. Like, think beyond me now. And so, yeah, my time will come. Like, I'm 60 soon. I'm seeing my own limitations. Yeah. What do you see when you look in the mirror and you think about that? To me, it's a celebration. To me, it's a graduation.

[00:16:17] I say it now for this podcast, but, I mean, it's taken me a while to get there to believe that. But I had a very famous gathering with all of my leaders last year. This is going to be very personal. But I got all of my leaders last year to meet me in, I think we met in Copenhagen first, then we ended up in Sweden. And, you know, 34 leaders from all over the world, from every continent in the world. Everyone met me up in Copenhagen.

[00:16:44] And I entered the room with a t-shirt that said, me versus everyone. And I said, I think, you know, it's the way I feel right now. Either I have to go or all of you have to go. There's no in between. Because I feel like I'm, for the first time ever in my 35 years, I'm up against everyone. Because you guys are going in a direction that I'm not, it doesn't reflect me anymore.

[00:17:12] It doesn't reflect the direction I think that we should be going. And so we had that meeting. And that was the first time I felt that, like outside of my own company. But that's a great thing. Like I was saying it in a way that was a celebration of me graduating. Maybe it's outgrowing me. There's going to be a time. Yeah. Because our leadership team is so amazing right now. We have the best people around the world that you even mentioned starting this podcast.

[00:17:38] We have some amazing people at some point I have to, you know, step out of the way. And so we had another meeting this year, which is last month actually. And I kind of did this new kind of, you know, I'm revealing a lot on this podcast actually. It's only just begun. But realizing my role of becoming a mascot for G Adventures, I've become Colonel Sanders.

[00:18:05] And I use the image of me as Colonel Sanders because I am becoming a mascot for the business. You know, I've been in the last little bit filming television shows in Finland and doing speaking in keynotes in Australia, in Malaga, Spain. Just these all in the last month. And I'm up on stage there as the G Adventures mascot, the best representative of the company, that kind of the hero of my accomplishments for 35 years.

[00:18:32] But having less to do with day-to-day decisions, but being responsible for the leadership team who I'm trying to get them now to trust their instincts. To mix that data decisions with raw instinct. It's hard for some people that aren't entrepreneurs. And so all of our conversation now about G Adventures is, you ask anyone, it's about the next 100 years.

[00:18:59] How do you cultivate a leadership team like that? It takes a long time. I mean, when you, you know, our main, everyone in my C-suite, my two CEOs, one's been 25 years, one's been 15 years. Everyone else has been 18, 10. Like there's no one that's, we don't recruit new. Look at all my VPs, they're all, you know, 10, 15 years minimum. There's so many people that are hitting 20, 25 years.

[00:19:29] Gee. So it's a long-term investment in people understanding our purpose for a very long time. Being, you know, just believing in what we do outside of just being a great travel company. What do you look for in these people? I know you said you don't necessarily recruit at that level. No, but we do recruit. I mean, a lot. And we're doing even more now than we've ever had.

[00:19:56] And probably the biggest challenge and opportunity that we've had over the last 35 years is COVID. Like it was a disaster for us, obviously, but we laid off over 2,000 employees and lost over 2,000 minds we invested in for decades. And we came back after COVID with 65% new people in the business that didn't know the struggle. Yeah. That didn't know the pain and just thought, gee, it was a cool place to work.

[00:20:23] And that's when I started to feel alienated myself from my own business, my own company. That's when the whole me versus everyone came up. It came up out of the return from COVID. But it was also the greatest opportunity we've ever had because we brought in new people. We could rebuild the company. We were able to think like a startup because we had to rebuild from nothing. We were in survival mode through COVID. And we were, we built back completely different as a business.

[00:20:53] And so the people that we brought into the business, our culture was so different. Like we built office, you know, these cool offices all over the world connected to people and communities. And our culture was based around that. We came out of COVID and people didn't want to come back to office. People didn't value office being together. And I was like, how can I lead that? I don't even know how to, how to relate to that. And people fighting us, like people fighting, threatening to quit if you make us come back to the office.

[00:21:20] Those kind of new challenges that I'd never experienced. And, you know, originally made me very angry. But it took me a long time to see the opportunity to, on where we could, where we could be on the other side. Expanding our talent pool. Yeah. From 50 kilometers around an office talent pool to a global talent pool. It's reframing the problem into an opportunity. Yeah.

[00:21:48] But it was also getting the chance to think like a startup with 30 years experience. What's the benefit of doing that? Just, you know, prior to COVID, we were a certain company. We built bootstrapping for my college credit cards in 1990. Over time, you do all kinds of things to build your company. But, you know, you lose speed. You lose the speed to market that's needed to be a nimble entrepreneurial organization. You become somewhat of a fat cat that you can't move. And if you're a company like ours, it's also so committed to our people.

[00:22:19] It's very hard for us to pivot. Like we don't fire people and we don't shift departments and get rid of departments. We could never move that fast. We lost our ability to be nimble as an entrepreneur that prides itself on speed to market and innovation, right? So when we lose everybody because of COVID, which was terrible, I wouldn't want that to happen to anyone. But we scaled down to the bare bones. We had no revenue for two years. We were at zero. We were in debt for the first time.

[00:22:48] We were in survival mode. Like there were days where we didn't know we were going to make it, right? And you come back on the other side of it and you have 30 years experience. You've now scaled down to the bare bones and you get to rebuild completely differently. There's nothing that's the same about what we do because we got to rethink of everything and act like a startup.

[00:23:11] But with all that experience we've had, it was an extremely exciting time and an incredible gift. But it takes a long time to get there. And how we operate and how we look at everything now. And that same process I just mentioned about our five-year window where we look back and look at, you know, this is a, you know, I wrote this book in 2013 called Loop Tail that I talk about our cyclical cycles, our five-year cycles as a company.

[00:23:38] Our standard is every five years to look back and be unrecognizable in every aspect of what we do, whether it's just finance or IT or technology or operations and hold yourself to that standard. So when I look back at 2025, back where we were unrecognizable as a company in 2020, like there's nothing that we did that was the same. When I look back from 2020, 2015, we're unrecognizable as a company from 2015 to 2010.

[00:24:06] And that standard is really hard work. It's really tough on certain people. We can only attract a certain people that can live by that change or die mentality because a lot of people like structure. They like to know where they're going or what they're doing. And there's very few people that are excited about that kind of environment because it's a tough environment of self-evaluation, constant self-evaluation, never being happy, never settling and constantly pushing. And people get exhausted by that.

[00:24:36] But some people thrive and learn to love it. And it's recruiting those people. I'm, you know, after 36 years, I'm actually in the moment doing a lot of interviews of junior people. I interviewed someone just yesterday who's getting a job just to answer our phones in our call centers. This woman was in the UK. And I'm doing interviews right across the business of everyone that comes in the business. Why?

[00:25:02] Because I'm excited to see and I want to know that the new people are going to be that next generation. And I want to be part of that decision making. And I want to also learn. And it was amazing what this young woman said about us. Because I lose touch of our customers and our people because, you know, we're pretty big now. And we have operations in 100 countries. And I got to stay in touch with that.

[00:25:29] I got a story yesterday, actually, from Australia where someone applied for a job and they said, you know, why did you want to work here? And they said, I saw this amazing documentary. And I showed it all my kids and we changed our lives. It was my documentary, The Last Tourist. But they didn't connect it to G Adventures. And in the interview, they said, our family saw this documentary, changed how we travel, how we lived. And now my kids want to work, you know, one of the children want to work here.

[00:25:57] And I want to get his other brothers and sisters to work here because of this documentary that they saw. And they started talking about The Last Tourist, not connecting it to us. And that person who did the interview sent me a Slack message to tell me, you know, this funny story that just happened. But I think, you know, I think just the future of our business. I wrote a new book that's coming out in November in Canada and January in the UK, I think in Australia. It's called Communitieship.

[00:26:25] And my new book is about our new culture of community. You know, we were a people first culture before and we're a community first culture coming out. And it's a very different environment on how we do everything. Doing these interviews have been very interesting for me because I want to see the motivation of why people are coming to G now. Why do they want to work now? Because I'm more passionate about our culture driving our performance than ever before.

[00:26:53] And not everyone believes it yet because we have so many new people in the business. Well, it's interesting you talk about culture the way you do because it's such a powerful tool, metric, whatever term you want to throw in here. That helps define whether a company is going to be successful beyond just data. Because you've got people in place who treat it like it's their own. Yeah. And it's funny because I think about sports analogies a lot.

[00:27:21] And last year the Toronto Blue Jays were in Toronto, had this incredible run to the playoffs. And just yesterday they interviewed the ace of the Blue Jays pitching staff, Kevin Gosman. And he talked about how the culture in the clubhouse is not the same as it was last year. A couple of people left. They didn't realize how powerful that person's personality and presence was to holding the team together.

[00:27:42] And when you talk about G Adventures, it has me thinking about how having the right people in place, but also the kind of people that have been there for so long have been through the trenches together and have come out the other side. Who went through COVID and didn't know if there was a paycheck next week or a job next month or what was going to happen to the world. They made it through that, came out the other side. They carry those battle wounds, but they're so much stronger for it. And that's a culture that you can't just simply go out and hire. No.

[00:28:12] You can only cultivate. Yeah, I was just speaking about this actually earlier this morning at that, how battle tested we are. The strength of and resolve that we have as an organization. Because right now we're going through the Iran war and it's impacting the business also in a very, in a big way differently and not nearly as extreme, of course. But it's just such a smooth transition for us. It's just like a bump in the road compared to what we've been through.

[00:28:41] And you asked the question earlier of what do I look for? You know, when you run a company that's like ours, that's so driven around its purpose and the idea that we can change lives and transform lives through the product that we offer people. It's very easy to be soft, you know, because we're so compassionate.

[00:29:04] We're so about, you know, being inclusive and being a company that respects cultures and people. How travel can be, you know, the fastest path to peace on this planet. If more people knew how other people lived in other parts of the world, there'd be less ignorance and violence in the world. You know, when you live by those things, it becomes easy to be a hippie. You know, gee, adventurous.

[00:29:30] We've had periods of times where we're just run by a bunch of hippies that just want to change the world. It's not a bad thing. But what really works is also people that are tough. Yeah. Like that are mentally tough and resilient. It's so easy. It's easy to join a company that, you know, that wants to do good and is idealistic. But do you have the wherewithal and the toughness to also build a fantastic company, build a strong company?

[00:30:00] Because a lot of that takes a lot of tough decisions as well. And you have to make a lot of tough decisions to be great. It doesn't come like by accident. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of self-reflection that has to happen in those moments too. Because there's that element of you as a leader and as a compassionate human who has to decide whether that decision, compassion aside, will actually help or hurt the business. Yeah. I mean, because everybody has great ideas.

[00:30:27] But the people that actually make them real and put them out there in the world and actually make money, because we're a for-profit business. We're not a charity. That takes a ton of small, little tough decisions. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, and you know, there's that fine line where you have to act like a business sometimes that's cold. Yeah. Business can be really cold, black and white cold.

[00:30:54] Now you can layer that on top with all the compassion in the world, all the purpose in the world, all the, as meaningful as you can do it. But ultimately you're a business that is aggressive, you know, to, you know, with market share, growth, innovation, all these things, speed to market, just all these things that are important to you too. And those things take tough decisions and tough people that have that, both of those kind of parts of their personality.

[00:31:23] And those are the hard, those are, those people are rare. They're very rare. How do you find them? You, you can find parts of them. You can make them. It's trial and error. However, I mean, I tell you, we have, we have our fair share of miserable people at G Adventures. Let me tell you. We have our fair share of snowflakes at G Adventures, like every other company. Not unique. No, it's not unique. But we create an environment where there's an opportunity to rise.

[00:31:52] And when you rise, there's opportunity for people to have that runway for 25 years and the runway to be, you know, and really contribute to something special and be part of something that's really unique. And it's, it's, and there's a path, but you have to want to take the path. We can only supply the path. We say all the time at G Adventures, you know, happiness is free, but you have to want to achieve it. Like there's, we have our share of miserable people that don't want to achieve it.

[00:32:19] But, you know, we can create an environment where you can achieve happiness through our business model. But ultimately you have to want it at some point. The, the old adage, misery loves company. I've had this conversation with other entrepreneurs and founders on this podcast about how they cultivate certain cultures. How do you prevent bad apples from poisoning the entire batch? It's, I mean, recruiting is the first step, right? Like how you recruit.

[00:32:46] And that's why, honestly, that's why, like in, uh, I'm, we're, we're learning that, learning that ourselves. Cause we're changing how we look at people too. Like prior to COVID, um, we used to search for people who are like us. And, um, you know, there was this big celebration when we found someone who was amazing. It was like, like, as if you found them almost cult-like, right?

[00:33:09] Um, but today it's about celebrating a diversity of opinion and how a diversity of opinion in different communities and cultures coming together, um, makes us stronger. If we learn to work together and share a unified purpose and values. And it's hard, but it is trial by error and people evolve too. You, you hire someone for 10 years. It's great. And they fall off the wagon and they're no longer great.

[00:33:31] And the people that I've had people that, you know, have come back that were, who left the company, um, not necessarily in, you know, for, for the best reasons gone out into the wild had, you know, their own experience and come back more committed than ever. Um, but you know, we, I think we do an amazing job at recruiting and finding the right people because we're lucky because we build a great company. We have another thing that she mentioned about, about the field of dreams.

[00:34:00] Like we are, uh, a field of dreams company and that's, if you build it, they will come. And when we put out a, uh, uh, uh, you know, I need a position filled. Sometimes we get a thousand applicants. Um, so we're lucky that way that people want, and it, and for us, it's about finding the right, the right person. But I think what's really more difficult. I think the question that you're asking is managing people within the organization. Um, and that's hard.

[00:34:26] The idea of, you know, um, hire slowly, fire quickly. It's also a model for us. Finding those people that are toxic or don't share the same values or that don't, that become, you know, that participate in culture, but don't drive it. Don't lead it. Don't act. Don't, they, they see culture as entertainment. They think it's a cool thing to be part of, but they don't want to actually help perpetuate it. Yeah.

[00:34:54] Um, and you can't find those things out until someone's actually in the environment and how you deal with those people, um, becomes the most important part of, um, a business. And, and again, going back to, um, what we were just talking about before, these are tough decisions sometimes. You know, we have the star mapping program at G where you, we constantly deal with our bottom 10%. That, that Peter principle. But no matter what group of people you have, no matter how good your team is, there's always a bottom 10%.

[00:35:22] Um, I think it's called the Peter principle and they use Harvard as an example. These kids that arrive at Harvard being defined their entire lives by being the smartest in their communities, in their families, whatever. And then they get to their class and there has to inevitably a bottom 10%. Um, and how you manage that bottom 10% um, is really what makes good companies great. Yeah. Yeah. How do you manage that bottom 10?

[00:35:47] Because similar to the analogy of the kids that end up at Harvard, who've been told their whole lives that they were superstars, you know, a lot of people who enter the workforce, you know, sometimes will come from environments where they were the best at what they did. And then they suddenly find themselves not in that upper echelon. And that's a bit of a shock to the system. Yeah. There's a bit of an identity crisis.

[00:36:08] You know, that's, that is one of the hardest things to do when you're managing people, especially when you manage a, a, a culture like ours that the scene and it's, it's award winning all over the world is being, um, great. It's the, it's, it's, it's, you have to be intentional about how you manage it. And it is about managing 10%. I said, we have this, a star mapping program that, you know, we, we, we manage our bottom 10%.

[00:36:33] So what we do is we have to, our managers, directors, VPs, they all have to, um, learn how to identify and, um, our bottom 10% all the time. Yeah. And then there's a program you to manage them up or out, you know, you manage up, up, like help someone manage them up into the, you know, out of that group. But if they, they don't have the, the will, don't have the capacity, then it's managing them out. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:37:00] The, I want to go back to the, the pandemic for a moment as the, the leader of the organization, you've got insight and view into basically every aspect of the business. You're not making any revenue. What's going through your mind there? It's easy to say now in hindsight, like it's a blessing, which you did.

[00:37:25] And maybe saying it's easy is not the right word, but like you can say that now because you look at the grand picture, but in that moment. Well, dude, you know, you're going deep. This podcast is going. So first of all, it didn't happen right away. If you can remember when we sent everyone home, it was for two weeks. Yeah. So we, it was. We thought everyone was going back. Yeah. Two weeks became four weeks. I was on. So we sent everyone from Friday the 13th, March. Let's go back to Friday, March the 13th. Yeah. I'm in New Zealand.

[00:37:51] I'm doing, I'm on the stage in New Zealand, on a stage and doing a morning show on the 11th. And I hear that borders are closing. I got to go now before I get trapped in New Zealand. And I'm thinking, what? Like the world turned into like a bad Will Smith movie, right? I heard, I heard, I remember hearing Morocco's closed. I was like, what do you mean? Morocco's closed. It's not a theme park. The borders of Morocco are closed. And, you know, and I'm in New Zealand and I'm on a radio show and I did a morning show that day.

[00:38:20] And they, and all they could talk about was this. And I'm, and I, if they, if anyone ever goes back and watches those things, the things I said, it's just a flu. Why are people panicking? I'm saying all this kind of stuff on TV. It's, it's, it's just awful. And I'm trying to just save my business, but not knowing anything about what I'm talking about. So, so let me get to the, the, you know, the, the emotion of your question. It was an evolution, right?

[00:38:47] So after two weeks, when we, when we were just sending people home for two, let's get a hold of this virus. Everyone go home, do their part. And then it went to a month. And then we had our first round of layoffs. And then our second round of layoffs. Third round. And now the fourth, we're talking, we're in August now, I'd say after that. And it's real now where our stores of cash are starting to, we're starting to think how long can we survive without revenue and all these people that we're paying.

[00:39:16] Now, Canada had great programs from the government to help us. You know, you know, a bunch of companies did, but we have people in a hundred countries. Like in South Africa, they didn't give us very much. Like in Ecuador, Peru, where we have 500 employees, they're not going to give us, there's no social programs. So we're making these decisions on cutting people. And it was the worst time of my life, honestly. When the, you know, I built this company on people and culture.

[00:39:44] And I'm looking at people as departments. I'm deciding between two different people, which one to keep, which one's going to help us on the other side of the zombie apocalypse. And which one I just have to let go. I'm not looking at them as, as people. Really, I'm looking at them as like in a cultural heritage preservation lens. Because I need to preserve our culture on the other side. What's the best person that's going to help us survive on the other side? And I never want to be in that position ever again.

[00:40:14] It was like the worst feeling in the world where I was looking at positions and preserving our culture and our, on our operation. And it was almost like the people were irrelevant. And they were, and making these tough decisions round after round of layoffs just to survive. And, you know, we were lucky because we, we had very little debt, if any. And I'm, I've got a hundred percent ownership of G Adventures.

[00:40:41] So I don't have other people that I have to answer to, but we have a limited amount of cash stored to keep, stay alive. And, you know, we made pretty tough decisions early on, which we were heavily criticized for. We made some serious decisions in April, a month after. And many people in the industry criticized us. You saw what was coming, though. I think I did. I don't even remember.

[00:41:09] It's, it's so, it's so dark at that time. And I didn't even make all the decisions. I had, I had, it's a whole leadership team decision. Of course, I take responsibility for it. But we had people doing, you know, medium store, median stories about, you know, Bruce Puntin fired me by Zoom and all this kind of stuff.

[00:41:32] And when we made those tough decisions, the first round in April, which was huge, even because there was so many government programs available to maybe delay the decisions. I think if I didn't make, if we, I don't say I, if we didn't make those decisions, then I'm not sure we would have survived. And then the next round was even harder. And so many companies, our competitors, many companies never made those decisions.

[00:42:00] They were willing to keep their people on government programs and pay whatever and get people to work 20% of the time and share salaries and all that. But I knew on the other side of this, I wouldn't need these people. And my view, I thought I was doing the humane thing because I knew no matter what happened, even on the other side of this, I'm not going to need these people. So they should get on with their careers instead of me holding them in limbo until the government program ends, then fire them and then have to get rid of them. And then they're stuck. Yeah.

[00:42:29] So they could still be on government programs while they searched because I knew. Nobody sees it that way, though. No. And so that was the difference. That's the hard part. I think that's the difference, the way I looked at it, because I knew even if we come back on the other side, we're not going to need 3000 employees for a long time. So for me, holding these people in limbo because there's government programs just to keep them around is not doing them a favor. So that was my view. Now, at the time, it seemed very harsh.

[00:42:56] So looking back, I think, you know, many times you get to ride back like a hero. In this case, I think we looked great that we handled it differently but better than a lot of people did. But it's just the luck of the draw. I mean, there's no credit to anything. You handle things with the information you have in the minute. Right. Those are the decisions we made. You're making those decisions in real time in the middle of a global pandemic. It was a dark, dark time, though, man. Like, I mean, I never want to go back there.

[00:43:27] And there was that point where, you know, I started talking about, you know, the phoenix rising from the ashes and how some of the greatest companies of our generation came out of the Great Depression. You know, when the chips are down, the companies that stay aggressive are the ones that.

[00:43:49] And so, you know, we started to change with, you know, we had, you know, 10, 15 percent of our people. And I own a bunch of other companies in the UK. I scaled them down even more. Some companies, one company I own had two or three hundred employees. We went down to 30 just to keep the lights on. And and and then telling everyone we need to still stay aggressive.

[00:44:15] We put out a product in the middle of a new product called Romy's in the middle of in the middle of COVID. And I remember just being so proud that we were launching, like we were still building and staying true to who we were. But all of those things couldn't have prepared us for the outcomes and the opportunity that it slowly turned into. Yeah.

[00:44:39] I want to ask you, as we're wrapping up here, how old did you say you were when you moved from Calgary to Toronto? I was 22. OK. Yeah. I want you to think back to 22 year old you, knowing everything you know today. If you can go back to that version of you and share one piece of advice, one piece of guidance, something maybe he needed to hear as he was starting this incredible journey that was probably very daunting to him. What would you say to him?

[00:45:10] I don't know about advice, but what I would say to him is, you know, everything's going to be OK. OK. Because nobody else would tell me that. So when I moved to Toronto, it was against everyone's will. When I wanted to start a company, it was against what everyone thought I should do. No one agreed with it. And then when I did start my business, I thought it was like there was never a moment that I thought that I wasn't doing what I was meant to do.

[00:45:40] But no one else believed in me at that time. And I didn't have the capacity to dream as big as we'd become, of course. But I knew what I was doing was right. I knew I was fulfilling my destiny, if that makes sense. It's I never felt for a minute, like even in our darkest times where we could have gone bankrupt or we could. There was a point where I bounced everyone's paycheck one week. Everyone who worked for me, there was not very many people then. But paychecks bounced.

[00:46:05] I never once doubted that's where I should, that I'm not doing what I'm supposed to do. So that's a magical feeling, but it was also a lonely feeling because no one ever said to me, you know, you're going to do great. You know, what you're doing is amazing. Because I was creating a company and doing something that no one had ever thought of before. The style of travel that I'm doing didn't exist prior to when I did it. So when I was explaining it to people, they didn't understand what I was doing.

[00:46:35] They said, why don't you just get a job? I remember getting offered a job at IBM just to get an entry level job. And why don't you just take that job? I said, I don't have the pins in my eyes. Like, I mean, I really didn't. And the number one question I get from entrepreneurs all the time is, how do I know if I'm an entrepreneur? How do I know how, if you don't know, then you shouldn't do it. It should be, you should feel burning desire.

[00:47:00] Like you should feel a burning desire that your ideas are burning in you and you have to get them out. And make them real in the world. And that's what makes great entrepreneurs. And, you know, define entrepreneurs though. Like an entrepreneur can own a franchise or start a corner store, family corner store, you know, a convenience store. That's an entrepreneur, right? But entrepreneurs that, you know, change industries or rethink how to do things that have been done differently forever.

[00:47:27] Like Michael Dell and how he didn't really invent anything. He just did everything better than anyone else could. Those entrepreneurs are, they're born. I think they're not made. And they're very rare. And not, if everyone was like that, they'd think they are. The world would be a very ineffective, inefficient place. We can't all be Batmans. There has to be Robins. Yeah, that's true. And so, yeah.

[00:47:54] So I would tell my 20-year-old self or your 19-year-old self, you can be anything. You can do anything. And it's going to work out. It's going to be okay. That's what I would tell myself. Because there was never anyone that ever said that to me. I've never had a mentor. And no one ever said to me, you're doing great. Amazing. And so, I don't know where I got that, because I don't know if I have it now. But then it was the most natural thing in the world for me. It's amazing.

[00:48:24] Bruce, thank you so much for coming in and joining me. Thank you for having me. I know you're a very busy guy. And just to be able to have this conversation, I loved listening to you chat. And I'm excited to see this next evolution of your journey. Yeah, me too. You strike me as a very reflective man right now, sort of going through this process. And I don't want to say there's a fork in the road, but there's something that's coming down that you're going to have to sort of decide.

[00:48:52] And it's interesting to watch someone go through that. Well, when you think about it, when we were in the middle of COVID and we didn't know we were going to survive, I thought I was going to start slowing down at 55. So, when COVID hit, it was, what, six years ago now? So, I was 54. I was planning to move to Barbados. I was planning to not quit, but start slowing down. COVID hit when I was 54. And that's when, you know, I told my family, I told people, we have to double down. We've got to get back in the trenches.

[00:49:22] Let's fight through this. And then I promised my team, because everyone who I work with said, how much gas do you have left in the tank, Bruce? And I said, you guys, I'm with you until I'm 60. And I thought that was forever. But here I am. I'm six months away from 60 now. And everyone's like, look at me. Okay, you're 60. But what's next? And I'm saying, you know, I'm saying, I'm kind of turning into Colonel Sanders. Like, you guys are going faster than me now. So, we have to start thinking about it. And you're right. It's reflective time.

[00:49:52] But it doesn't have to. For me, it's not negative. It's a graduation. Absolutely. And it's a celebration of, and I say to my people, you guys should be super happy if you outgrow me. Yeah. Like, don't be afraid of it. Don't be afraid to outgrow me. Don't be afraid to do better than me. And the last three products that they've launched without me have been the best three products that this company's launched in the last 35 years. So, I don't know what that means, actually, at this stage. Because I am loving what I'm doing. And I'm loving my team right now.

[00:50:20] We just finished this five days in the Netherlands together. 36 of our leaders from around the world. We had the best time. And I love my team right now so much and love what we're doing. And so, I'm going to take, I'm going to, but I am reflective. I'm super reflective. Like, it seems like I'm constantly living in a, you know, Wayne's World dream sequence. Like, I'm constantly thinking, this is amazing. But, you know, and it'll come to me. I mean, the universe always opens up for me.

[00:50:49] So, I know my, I just, I just have to listen. Yeah. Destiny tells me where I need to go. Amazing. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thanks. Thanks for having me. This has been great. Thank you so much, everybody.