The Man Behind the Mask: Why This Fitness Creator Says He Shouldn’t Be Idolized - Billy Lovatsis

[00:00:13] You said you're the second youngest? Second youngest, yeah. Do you have that young kid syndrome? What's it called? The one where it's like you're the youngest? No, well I'm not the youngest. You're not the youngest, but there's the second youngest? I don't know. You were the youngest at one point. Yeah, at one point I was. But what is the syndrome? It's like if you're the youngest sibling, you're the one that needs the most attention. Well, my little sister got the most attention definitely. So no, I didn't have that. What's the age difference to me? She's four years younger than me.

[00:00:42] So my oldest sister is four years older and then she's four years younger. So there's like an eight year gap between the oldest and youngest. Is there a big difference between you all? Yes and no. Yes and no. Like there's a through line. Definitely. We're all very similar. But we all are kind of individual and then we all share similar things with each one of each other. So yeah, it's funny because I think each one of us might even say that we're the black sheep in the family. So, you know, which is which is kind of like a funny kind of a funny way.

[00:01:12] Way of looking at it. But why would you be the black sheep? I was very rebellious. Was so not anymore. Yes and no. I mean, like my life is not traditional at all. Like I do content. Right. And I was always just doing things my way. I always had a hard time with authority and just accepting cultural rules. I always needed to test them my whole life. Why? Because I wanted to see why they were a thing and no one could really answer why. You know, no one had a really good like vocal answer as to why these cultural rules were rules.

[00:01:41] And I was I just needed to test them because I just don't like accepting things. I don't like I like to scrutinize everything. And I also just want to make sure that I'm not being past something that doesn't make any sense and I should just abide by it. So I think it's I think it's a lot of the searcher in me that really wants to investigate whether this rule is real or not. And the thing about culture is that most of the time nobody knows why you do the thing.

[00:02:08] But there's deep, deep reasons as to why you do the thing. It's just hard. It's just been so long that people forget the actual reason why. But they're there for a reason. And so a lot of my exploration led me back to being like, oh, I get why we did this. You know, but it was very much me just trying to figure my own way through life. I'm very independent, too. So what do I need to know about you to understand the man that's sitting in front of me?

[00:02:35] Oh, I don't even know how to answer that question. It's so complex. That is such a complex question. I think I'm a very complex person. And I'm not saying that like in an arrogant way. I think that, you know, I'm I'm very dynamic in ways and I'm not your typical individual, I would say.

[00:02:58] So I'm quite unique in the sense that, you know, I mean, in many ways, like in just interests, how my psyche is split up. And it's very difficult. I would say like the best, the best way to describe myself would be dynamic.

[00:03:13] I think that's, I mean, there's a lot, there's a lot of different faces to me, you know, like I have a lot of very different interests. I have a lot of unusual things, I would say that are, you know, not typical of like, if you took someone in this room, they're going to do it. And you got them to judge me, they'd probably be completely mistaken.

[00:03:33] Well, that was part of the conversation that you and I had when we talked about this coming on this podcast. And one of the biggest surprises was your outward facade is very much a facade. Totally. You are not what you look like. Well, that's the persona, what you're talking about. And the persona is socially crafted. And social media really does a good job at yanking the persona in certain directions, because it validates it through views, right?

[00:04:00] Right. So what you're talking about is my persona. And keep in mind, when I started doing social media, I was a very different person. So I started at like, I don't know, 27 or whatever, 26, 27, something like that. And now I'm 33. So I've been doing it for five, six years. And when I was 27, I was an idiot, right? And that persona was working very well socially in my world at the time. And then on social media, it started doing well as well.

[00:04:27] And then it got yanked, because that's, that's how, that's how personas work, like how you develop a persona is like, you test something, if people accept it, then you're like, Oh, people like that. So that's going to be a part of me. And that persona is like, all the things that are socially acceptable, essentially, and then it rejects the shadow, which is the things that you, you don't want to be a part of what you're whatever.

[00:04:48] Well, the shadow is just things that you reject. Right. And so my persona, you know, it's kind of, it's kind of interesting, because online, you know, if someone were to just see my content, you know, I'd be interested. No, I guess, I guess the best thing is when we had our conversation, you're like, you're really not like your persona. And it's, you know, the thing about personas is as they get more exaggerated, the further from the truth they become. Right.

[00:05:14] And in the persona, there's always truth to it, right? The persona is still part of you, but it's a social mask, you put it on, right. And it works really well on social media. But, you know, I think the reason why personas are developed and become so extreme, there's multiple reasons. One is insecurities. But two is because of the fact that it's just succeeding so much, and it's getting the validation that you want. And especially in social media, it's a validation game, right?

[00:05:39] So being your true self on social media usually doesn't land that well. Because like, you're just usually a boring person. Like I like coffee, and I like reading books, you know, I actually don't like talking to people. I love chilling with my I like simple things, like really, really simple things. I do like extravagant things too, as well. But if I was like, hey, welcome to the day in the life, like if I was really doing it, it'd be boring as hell, right? So that's kind of why you create a creative persona to you know, in that in that sense.

[00:06:07] So well, the irony is when I saw your content the first few times, you know, from the gym videos to the, you know, like the ripping bags of sushi and like slapping your, you know, I was gonna say your meat, your bread and stuff on the table. Holy shit, it's not OnlyFans. I was just like, I get I get the visual appeal. And from a content creation perspective, I'm like, this guy knows what he's doing. He's calculated. It's great.

[00:06:36] But you but you don't follow me. No, I wouldn't follow me either. Because I was like, I don't. There's no value here for me. I wouldn't follow me either. To be honest. Why do you say that? Because I don't find I don't follow anybody. Like actually like content creators, like I don't really follow anybody because I don't find any of them that interesting. None of it is real. Yeah, it's not real. And even if it's not real, it's not even that interesting, even in its falseness. You know what I mean?

[00:07:01] So I follow content creators because like, it's like a mutual respect thing, you know, but I don't like consume content. Like I read books. That's the content I consume. That's like, if Carl Jung was alive doing Instagram, which you'd never do Instagram because he's Carl Jung, then I'd follow him. But you know, like, I don't have anybody that's like, my favorite content creator, right? So that's why I say I wouldn't follow me either. Like my favorite content that I do has been recently,

[00:07:26] I've been doing some book videos and stuff like that. And that's what I really love to do. I also like my gym content, like when I'm actually just, you know, doing a heavy lift, like that's fun for me, but the rest is fun. But it's like, it's just entertainment stuff. And I don't know, there's not much exactly what you said. There's not much value in it. So yeah, if you want to be entertained, sure. But like, I don't go, I don't look, I don't go to social media for entertainment, right? That's not my form of entertainment. I would way rather read a book or I'd rather have a conversation or watch a movie or listen

[00:07:56] to music, you know? So what do people need to know about you then to understand the man behind the persona? And does that persona ever, as you adopt it, you get the validation, the cycle rinses and repeats, you see the numbers grow, you start getting brand deals, you're like, wow, okay, this persona is worth something. It could be very easy for that persona to start to creep into your personal life. Oh, it always does. So the problem with the persona is that, see, most content creators don't

[00:08:26] understand that they're wearing a mask. They think that they're actually that. They're not that at all. That is totally their persona. Now there's some truth in the persona, but that's the reason why content creators are, you know, like you can meet a content creator and he'll be super arrogant. Like his nose is up in the air. And it's like, dude, people like your mask. They don't like you get it. Don't get it twisted. You're not the value of your mouth. You just put that thing on. Right. So that's why it's hilarious to me. Like people come up to me all the time and they'll be like, oh dude, like I thought you were going to be an asshole because you're a content creator. It's like,

[00:08:54] no dude. Like I, like I know what I am. I'm like, I'm exactly like you. I just have this mask, this social mask that does really well. Right. And so yeah, content creators just don't understand that. And what happens a lot of the times is they, they, they're always wearing the mask and that's a big problem. Right. Because the further you are away from yourself, the further you are away from like the self and that's, that's wrong. Like that's not who you are. That's not true. So it's

[00:09:21] not a good thing. Right. Now personas come in handy. Like they're super important. You go into a room, you go into a party, you know, you're going into a business meeting. You need to have some type, there's a reason why you develop them. Right. Obviously they have utility and they're not all bad, but you have to have a lot of awareness to understand that a persona is exactly just that. And a lot of the times people think they take off the mask, but there's fragments still on their face. They don't, they can't, they can't take it completely off because they don't know the

[00:09:47] difference. And it takes a lot, a lot of in-depth like analysis and a lot of thinking with yourself and a lot of reading these types of great thinkers to really understand the difference because people just don't know. They literally think that they are the guy online. It's like, dude, you're not that guy. You have to understand that. Right. Nobody is. No, you're not. Rarely have I ever met someone who I've seen online. Uh, and I've been fortunate in having some pretty interesting people come on this

[00:10:14] podcast and rarely are they ever what you see online. Well, the P the people that are truly themselves are like just the great thinkers of our day, right? Like they're well integrated people. They've actually really learned how to, you know, become integrated with their persona and who they are and all those things. Right. So, you know, there are some people that are definitely not just pure persona, but like the average content creator is totally just, it's just persona. That's what it is.

[00:10:42] So the, this content creation game, do you enjoy it? Yes and no. As, as time goes on less and less, definitely. You know, when I was young, like it was kind of like, oh, it's so cool. I'm going to be famous, make money, you know, get to do content. Cause I do like making content. And then as you get older and you become more aware, you're like, wow, this is just like a root of all narcissism. And it's, I have to like, when you become really, really self-conscious and not self-conscious,

[00:11:10] well, I guess when you become self-conscious, you also become insecure. That's kind of like the thing that happens, but the more self-conscious you become, the more you realize how much of an act you're putting on. So sometimes like think videos that were super easy for me to do before. Like if I'm going to do like a super arrogant video where I'm like, yeah, I'm the fucking best, you know what I mean? Kind of a deal. And then I watch it back and I'm like, like my insides are melting. Right. Cause I'd rather just be like, I'm not, I'm just a fucking regular dude. You know what I mean?

[00:11:36] I guess then you do take a look at some of the content that you record where you give off, where that mask is fully on. You're very much playing that. I do that all the time. I have to, right. It's part of it. It's also my job. And sometimes the thing is, it's like, as long as I'm aware of it, it's okay. Right. So as long as I'm aware, like that's totally a mask. You don't lose yourself. You don't lose yourself. You should never lie to yourself, right. But, um, you know, the thing that's really interesting about content is you actually get

[00:12:02] to see your unconscious. It's really crazy because most people that are in media up until content creators were trained, like it's politicians, it's actors, like you're trained, right? It's not, it's never been the case. You throw a phone in your face. You just free ball. Right. So then when, when you free ball and you watch that video back, you notice things you've never noticed before. Cause now you're observing yourself. So you actually get to take a look into your unconscious. And when you become self-aware, you see like, Oh my God, I'm so narcissistic right there.

[00:12:32] That is like so much. Oh my God. I'm actually really insecure. Like I'm so hurt here, you know? And then, then you start doing an analysis on yourself. And then now it's like really difficult to create content in the persona. Cause you're just always analyzing everything. And this is what I do constantly. Like it's, it's, it's kind of a curse, but it's also a blessing. So how do you balance that? How do you balance the joy of creating content? Because all the

[00:12:55] conversations we've had have been around your creative outlets. Um, you obviously get joy from creating the content, but the stuff that comes with it is the part that seems to, you know, get on your nerves maybe. How do you balance that? Well, what I'm trying to do is shift the direction of my content. And that's partly the reason why I'm on this podcast is because, okay, listen, like I built a persona and there's a lot of truth to it

[00:13:23] there, obviously, but I built this persona around an older version of me. It's outdated, right? It's at times maladaptive even. And I want to start slowly integrating into this new type of content that I'm going to be doing to, to just show who I am. Because, you know, before I was really much a slave to the algorithms, right? You're like, okay, this does really well. This series, I have to do it because it's going to get a ton of views and I'm going to get brand deals. I'm going to make money and I'm going to live the content creator life. And it's going to be second. That was really the

[00:13:50] beginning. Right. Um, but as time goes on, like I said, with the self-awareness, I've been like, okay, I'm not doing any of that. Like I've cut three or four extremely viral series off at the knees. Cause I'm like, I'm not doing this. Right. And I could have, I would probably say like three times the following I do, if I just continued doing the things that I didn't want to do that we're doing really well, but I choose not to. So I've always been at least somewhat conscious of

[00:14:16] like, okay, I'm not going to completely just go off the rails here. Um, but the whole point of what I'm doing now is really just a shift over from being like the young, joking, stupid Jack guy flexing with the square packs and like, it doesn't give a fuck about anything. I'm the best. You know what I mean? To like, just more of a mentor role and, um, someone that's, you know, a more integrated person and, uh, more sophisticated and, and show just my real colors. Like even in my videos,

[00:14:43] like I'll post videos and I'll put a little piece of me playing piano and singing. I can't fucking sing dude. You know what I mean? I just started there. Cause I'm like, I play piano. I don't care. You know, I'm not going to be a slave to the algorithm. Right. So slowly as time goes on, I'm just moving away from the old type of content and just going into this new direction, which is way more around the philosophical, you know, philosophical, psychological route, because that's all I care about. Like, I'm not interested in talking about curls. I think we

[00:15:10] talked about this, right? Like, like, you know, God bless the guys that really love like, you know, anatomy and kinesiology and exercise science. Like that's a science and totally like all the respect to them, but it's the most boring shit in the world to me. It's like, Oh, this curl over this curl gives you 1% more growth in your body. Couldn't care. What did you say? You know what I mean? Kind of a deal. So for me, whenever I have a conversation, I can't talk about the gym. Like the gym is so important in my life and everyone should do it. And you should take care of your body. And you,

[00:15:39] in my opinion, I think you should try and see what you're capable of becoming. And, but I just can't really talk about it because it's just so boring and dry. So my, my, all my life revolves around deep conversations about like psychoanalysis and religion and, you know, culture and those things, art, music. How do you handle social, social gatherings and environments? Well, you strike me as a guy that really values, like you said, the deep, meaningful conversations as do I, which makes

[00:16:07] it so hard for me to go to outings and events and parties because I'm like, I don't care to talk for 30 seconds to a minute and then never see you or hear from you again type of thing. I hate those kinds of interactions to surface level. Yeah. Well, okay. It's exhausting, obviously. Right. Like nobody, I don't think anybody really likes those, you know what I mean? Unless you're just really good at it, but yeah. Unless you're just so vapid and shallow and you just are so unconscious and it's like, you know what I mean? Maybe those people really, really truly love that. But

[00:16:35] you know, I mean, listen, at the end of the day, then that's when I pull out my persona. Right. And it's like, I have it. So it does really well in those settings. You know, at least I think I do. I'm like, maybe people fucking hate me. I don't know, but it does well enough that I don't get into any conflict. Um, but you know, those, those things are exhausting. They're very exhausting and I don't like going to them. So that's why I like, I don't hang out with people too much, to be honest. Like I don't do the content creator thing. I don't have content creator friends and do content creator parties and stuff like that. I don't do any of that stuff because I just, I'm like,

[00:17:06] you're so fucking vapid. Like, what am I going to talk to you about? You know what I mean? Like how many views we got, you know? And the thing is, is like the average content creator is just the average person and the average person is incredibly shallow and vapid. So there's no conversation happening there, but you know, sometimes you're forced to be in those settings and like, you just, it is what it is. You just pull up the persona and you just kind of see, and then you find the one person you're like, Oh man, you're like kind of deep. Maybe I can get something from you. And then, and then you kind of get into a corner and you just

[00:17:32] courted the person. Yeah, totally. Totally. And like, I always like, you know, the funny thing is, is that I never really go out anymore, like to the bars or anything. But when I do, I always just have, like, I find someone and I just fucking, you know, have that in such a deep conversation. You know what I mean? Cause it's, it's like, I actually kind of like it cause it's such a contrast. Cause you're at a bar, everyone's just like, right. And then you find someone and you're like really looking in their eyes and trying to understand them. And if they're open,

[00:17:58] then you have this really amazing conversation. Right. So that's kind of what I do. And if it's just a bunch of shallow conversations, then I'm just exhausted and I have to leave eventually. And like, you know what I mean? But I don't, I'm always planning my exit as soon as I get in. And if I survey that room and I'm like, it's going to be one of those, I'm ready to leave. Totally. If I can't have a meaningful conversation with someone, I don't want to be here. Yeah. It's just, it's exhausting. It's torturous actually. Yeah. And you have so many of those

[00:18:25] conversations daily already. If you could limit those even better. Yeah. The, we talk about persona, we're talking about the way people perceive you. Yeah. How do you think people perceive you? Let's start there. Someone had to describe you right now. What would they say about you? I don't know. Because like, you know, I'm not knowing you. Yeah. Without no, they don't, they don't actually know you. Yeah. They've just seen your content and they, they kind of see how you show up at events or down the street type of thing. What do you think

[00:18:54] they would describe you as? So they see my content. They've never met me personally. They've never had an interaction with me. Yeah. Um, so there's no surprise as to who you actually are. What do you think people see when they look at you? I don't know because like people, I mean, people send me messages a lot and they, they, they kind of tell me what they think about me and it's very different. And also I interact with people that know me from online. Right. So it's like two things. It's, it's a mixed bag. It's either like, they're like, man, I love your videos. They're so funny.

[00:19:23] Like that. And it's like, we have like a little bit of a laugh or it's someone who's like, you changed my life. Okay. And, and that you really helped me transfer. And I get a lot of those too. So it's, yeah, it's beautiful. And it's a 50 50 kind of a thing where I get like people that are like, so like grateful for me. And it, that is the most amazing thing ever, by the way, when those people come with you, when, when the other people come with you, it's fine. It's like, it's really nice. And then like, I appreciate it and stuff, but it's not the same gravity as like someone coming up to me and saying, I changed your life. You changed my life. Right. So it's, it's a bit of

[00:19:52] both. And like, I think some, I think some people see me as very motivational. I see some people see me as just like kind of a goofball. Um, you know, so it just depends. It also depends on the platform. Like if you go on my YouTube and my long form, like those guys would probably say Billy is just like fun, but he's deep and he's intricate and he's kind of, it's kind of confusing who he really is. And honestly, it has a lot to do with the fact that my psyche is so fragmented too. Like in my content, even like I'll sometimes go through my stories on Instagram and I'll be like, dude,

[00:20:22] how, how do people even relate to me? Like one story is me making a joke. The next story is me like under a tree with like classical music playing with a NJ quote, you know what I mean? It's like, you know, so it's so, and then the next one's me like deadlifting 700 pounds. Like, what is this kind of a deal? And really it just has to do with the fact that I do have a pretty fragmented psyche and I, you know, don't we all, are we not all just a complex assortment of different personalities?

[00:20:48] Yes. Yeah. But I think that, um, I think that people that are more in tune with themselves become more integrated and they become more like one cohesive package, right? Like I think that's actually probably what happens as you mature and develop properly and transform and individuate. Right. But maybe I'm wrong on that. I don't know. Um, well, if you're saying that your psyche is fragmented, it sounds like you're not quite there yet. I'm not there yet. What are you doing to get

[00:21:15] there? Everything I can, to be honest, like this is the reason why I read so much and I'm, I actively take myself out of situations that I know that I'd want to be in that I know are wrong for me. Like, you know, so for example, I'll tell you what, like where my, how my psyche is split up. There's three ways. It's like, I have this one part, which is the hedonistic part of me, right? It's the hedonist. It's the one that wants to go out and party. It's the one that wants views. It's the one that wants attention. It's that right. And I really don't like this part of me,

[00:21:44] right? But it's a part of me. So I have to learn to like it. Then the next part is my super ego, which is like time to work. That's enough partying. That's enough playing. You have to work. Like I have a really intense super ego that makes me do a lot of work because I work a lot. And then I have this third part of me that's very calm and peaceful and just deep and just wants to be spiritual. And all three hate each other. They all hate each other because the hedonist is like, fuck off. I just want to party. I just want to have fun. I just want this moment right now. Right. And there's nothing wrong with it. A little bit of hedonism is okay. Like you want to be in the

[00:22:14] moment. If everything is just delayed for the future, then you just never get it. So you never get it ever. Right. So like there, there, there is good things and bad things in the hedonism, but it never wants to do anything, but live in the moment. Then my super ego is like, hedonist, you're a loser. Calm guy. It's time to work. We got to get shit done. Right. And then the calm part of me is like, no, no, no, you guys don't understand life at all. You guys are just ridiculous. The whole point is to be in tune with nature and art and live beautifully. Right. So they

[00:22:42] hate each other. Right. So that, that's the thing right now where I'm really trying to figure out how to, how to, you know, kind of connect those three pieces because you see them in, in my content all the time. Those are the three things. Right. So yeah, it's, it's, it's a pain in the ass actually. You want to know the honest truth. What are you reading right now? Uh, a hero of a thousand phases, a hero with a thousand phases. I think it's by Joseph Campbell. It's pretty much,

[00:23:07] do you know psychoanalysis at all? Freud? Yeah. Jung? Yeah. So what this book is about essentially is it, it tries to analyze mythologies from all different parts of the world to find a universal structure. And through that universal structure, it tries to understand kind of like human nature. So for example, like, um, why are these, you know, for example, these cultures, why do they have similar stories, similar underlying structures? And the whole thing is the hero story,

[00:23:35] the story of the hero in, in so many different cultures that have had no contact with each other. We have these similar stories with what the hero, what happens to the hero, like things are different, like what the hero is and the adversity, advert, uh, what am I? Adversity. Adversity. Holy smokes. Adversities they're facing. They're different, right? So the content inside of it is different, but the structure is similar. And it's just trying to analyze these mythologies to

[00:24:00] find this structure. And like, that's kind of like the Jungian archetypes where, you know, we all have a collective unconscious and we have these archetypes, these symbols that are in all of us. And so it's a really amazing, amazing book. Um, and I, I read a lot of that kind of stuff. That's, that's way more on the mythological side, but a lot of psychoanalysis, like analyzing the human psyche, understanding consciousness, the unconscious, you know, those kinds of things.

[00:24:28] The piece of content that you produce that really got me to want to reach out to you was the post you created around men's mental health, which is a very big conversation and theme of this podcast, right? Because it's a topic that we don't talk about enough and too many men die. Too many men suffer from addiction and depression and break their relationships, ruin their lives because of it. And the reason I asked you a little bit prior to that, what you think people see when they look at you

[00:24:59] externally is because you don't look like the guy that would talk about mental health. No. And I was shocked. Shock might be too strong of a word, but I was surprised when I saw that content and I thought, okay, this guy has more depth to him than just working out and videos of him eating or making a sandwich. Why did you feel that that conversation needed to be had? Oh, so many reasons. Um, so in that

[00:25:27] conversation, I essentially took off the armor, right? Like my, my, every other piece of content is like a knight with a sword and he's just prancing around on his horse. Right. And that I just completely stripped and it was like, Oh my God, that's like a, that's like an actual human being underneath. He's not like a knight, you know what I mean? Kind of a deal in that the whole point of getting super vulnerable like that is because one, that's who I am. And I'm trying to move my

[00:25:52] content towards being more true to who I am. And number two is that I know how many people would appreciate that because it's so hard to do. It is so hard, especially like, you know, I have like almost 2 million people and a lot of them are looking up at me like this, like, what's he going to do? Right. And you know, it's natural for you to want to show the best parts of yourself. That's the persona, right? It's the same idea. And it's very hard to show the weak, vulnerable, sick parts of

[00:26:20] yourself because it's, it's being vulnerable. And you know, men, it's men have a really hard time being vulnerable, but I'm trying my best to become more vulnerable because there's such a strength in being a vulnerable person. Right. And I was like, well, I'm going to be extremely vulnerable because I know how many men are suffering. And if they see me being like, Hey, here's a hole in my heart too. You know, I think it would help them a lot. And, you know, I was like, it's my duty

[00:26:48] now as someone with a primarily male audience. Um, and someone who really, really cares about my, the people that follow me. And I just care about health in general for men and women. Right. And, you know, a lot of women benefited from that video too, because they were like, Oh my God, not all men are tyrannical, evil, you know, um, abusive men, you know, there's, there's some of them

[00:27:14] have a heart. So it wasn't just for men. It was for women too. Like I wanted them to see like, Hey, like we're humans too. And, and like, you probably, maybe you've had a ton of bad experiences with us, but like, you know, it's, it's, it's not easy for us either. And, you know, it's, so it's, it was one of those things where I just really wanted to show, I wanted, you know, I, I'm trying to break the idealism too. I don't really, I, it's not that I don't really, I do not want to be

[00:27:40] idolized because I know how much idolization ruins people. And a big part of what my content is moving forward is actually trying to destroy any type of idolization that people have for me. Cause I want them to know I'm a human being. And if they see this like shiny guy online or whatever, they may believe, like some people maybe don't think any of that, but some people do. And they see like, no, no, no, that's just a human being. Like I'm trying to just break this stupidity, this barrier of like, I'm a content creator and you're a regular person. It's like, no,

[00:28:10] no, no, no. I'm a human being. Right. And I think that, you know, especially being a guy that's like a strong guy, like, you know, a big dude, um, people mostly think that I'm confident and, um, you know, have those types of attributes to me to see him be vulnerable, especially is, is a really nice thing. Cause like, Oh, this is like a very masculine guy being very sensitive and very vulnerable, which I think is actually being more masculine in my opinion.

[00:28:37] I agree. I think there's strength in vulnerability. I think it makes you more of a man to be honest about where you're at emotionally and then finding a way to build resilience to that, as opposed to just sweeping it under the rug, pretending everything is okay. And then, you know, being triggered one day and losing your shit. Then it devouring you. Yeah. That's what happens, right. When you try and ignore it or you try and leave it in the unconscious, then it takes complete control of you. And, you know, yeah, I think I,

[00:29:06] you know, that video, I think a lot of people, you know, cause I got a lot of messages from that video and that video did really well. And it got a ton of comments and like how many people reached out to me being like, bro, I needed that so badly. Right. And I was like, that's why I did it. You know, I didn't want to, I didn't want to be that vulnerable. Like I, I'm not that vulnerable to, to people. I'm very, I don't like crying. I cry all the time, but I don't like showing people that. Right. I'm very much a crier. And, uh, I mean, I could see a little bit in your eyes as you're talking about the emotion.

[00:29:37] Whenever I get into deep conversations, I'm like holding back for dear life. I'm like reigning the horses and all the time. Why? Because I, because it's hard for me to be vulnerable. Why? Well, because vulnerability wasn't really, uh, met with compassion. And I said that in the video is like for a lot of men being vulnerable, isn't met with compassion. It's met with rejection and nobody likes to be rejected. So that's a very important thing. You know, it's funny. Like I have friends that are cops and I have friends that are, you know, whatever they may be doing.

[00:30:07] And like, they'll come up to me and tell me a horrible story. I'm like, you can cry in front of me. Hey, like, don't worry. Like, I'm not going to judge you. I actually, you know, the thing is, it's funny when, when a man cries in front of me, it just makes me feel like he trusts me. And like, the last thing I'm going to do is slap him. Like, it's like, it's like a child coming up to you, right? It's the same thing. And a child saying, daddy, look what I did. And you go like, yeah, that's shit kid. You know what I mean? You can't do that. Right. When someone's being very vulnerable and very open with you, like, I'm not saying lie, but I'm saying you have to be

[00:30:37] compassionate. There's times to be compassionate. And I, you know, I, you know, a lot of men, you know, like, like I had this one conversation with my friend who was a cop and like one of his friends got murdered and it was like a terrible, terrible thing. And he was on the brink of tears. I just give him a hog. I was like, dude, like you can cry. It's fine. Like you lost someone special. It's like, I'm not, I'm not going to think you're like, uh, you're, oh, wow. You're such a, you're such a coward that you're crying. Right. This is a terribly emotional thing and it's okay. Like,

[00:31:03] you know, so I cried on that clip a little bit. Um, every time I do a deep video, I'm like bawling. I have to cut it out because it's like, all right, this is too much. Right. You know what I mean? But, uh, but like, yeah, you know, I, I left, I left me crying in there just show like, I do cry. I do cry a lot. Like, because I'm always thinking about deep things constantly. I, I go to my cafe every single morning. I read my book and then I sit and stare out the window for an hour. And

[00:31:29] sometimes I cry. Sometimes I cry the whole time. Sometimes I don't cry. And it's always just super deep and deep. And, uh, you know, obviously that's because I have traumatic events and that have happened to me in my life and I have my own psychological wounds and I'm not some, you know, shell that's just completely hard. Like within me as a hurt child too, like every, every single one of us is like that. So it's like, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna hit your hurt child within you when you're vulnerable to me. No, I'm not doing that. That's insane.

[00:31:57] It takes an incredible amount of bravery to open up to someone. And when they do, we all share responsibility and holding space for that person. Yeah. Because at some point in our lives, whether it's happened or going to happen, we're going to need someone to hold space for us. And it took someone, it took another man showing me vulnerability for me to finally understand what that even looked like. And this was six years ago.

[00:32:26] So not that long ago in the spectrum of my life. Right. And I was like, wow, I can't judge him. I just wanted to hold space for him. Just be there. Listen, I'm not a therapist, but the least I could do is just say, Hey, I'm here for you. If you want to sit in silence, I'm here. If you want me to distract you with a story, I will, but whatever you need, I'm here. And I think more men need that.

[00:32:52] Because I think there's a lot of men walking around right now who've never even had the opportunity to say, Hey, I'm not okay. Or they've got that kid inside of them that was hurt by something, or they got cheated on in high school and they've never really processed that, or their favorite person passed away and they've never processed that grief. And it's just carrying it around and it's consuming them to the point where they're like, I've got nothing left in me. And if they get to a point where

[00:33:21] it consumes them, like you said, that's just a ticking time bomb. Well, okay. You're talking about repression and that is, um, you know, so I kind of mentioned that in the video, but I didn't go into too deep, too much detail because it was a short form clip, but like, you know, a lot of the times, you know, we were taught as men to like, okay, that's enough emotion. Like get up, go start going right. Kind of a deal. And it's like, well, that emotion just

[00:33:49] doesn't go away. It's not like it disappears. Okay. Yeah, no problem. I'm good. Right. Like that's not how the world works. What happens if you do this, right? And then it goes down and then it's, and then it's buried there. Right. And then the next emotion comes and then it gets buried and then it gets, and then you have this warehouse of buried emotions and with stacked repressed trauma and memories on top. And they're just on top of each other. And the bottom ones start to fucking explode. And then they start going poisonous in you and they erupt into you. It's not exactly how it happens, but it's something like that, where when you

[00:34:19] have too much repressed energy, you know, it comes out in so many different ways. So I'm a master, master repressor to the point where I forget things I can. And this is another thing that's in my psyche. I can actually split my psyche and, and this is a bit of a psychotic part of my ego, right? Like, is that if I, for example, if I feel someone's trying to hurt me, then what I'll do is I'll cut them out of my life and I'll never think about them again. And they're dead. Right. And I'll,

[00:34:47] they're gone. And that's not normal. Right. Like you, like there should be something that comes up every once in a while, but like, I'm so good at repressing, um, that I can actually remove myself from my emotions. And like, this is what I've been working on a lot is bringing my emotions back and being one with them and being in touch with them. Because you know, the fact that I'm scared of being vulnerable is the fact that I'm scared of being emotional. The fact that means I'm scared of my emotions. The fact that I'm not willing to go deep within myself and just feel things and be okay with

[00:35:16] feeling things is because I'm terrified of my emotions. Right. So I, I rationally, I'm way ahead. Emotionally, I'm like 15 years old. Right. And so what I'm trying to do a lot is bring those emotions back up and like, let's deal with them. Let's, let's see them. And it's terrifying because to access emotions there that are repressed, they're in your unconscious and the unconscious is terrifying. What are you going to find there? You don't know it's unconscious to you. The

[00:35:43] unconscious is the equivalent of like, you're in a boat and you're in the ocean and it's black and you're just riding these massive waves. That's what the unconscious is. Right. And you're like, you may have to go on that journey on that voyage and find out these things. Like, fuck that. That's the reason why people don't do it. You know, it's terrifying. So, you know, what I've been doing a lot is been trying to just process the emotions, feel the emotions. And that's why I'm trying to be more vulnerable with people to be like, Hey, stop burning these things. Stop it. Like you can be okay. You can,

[00:36:13] you can totally like cry, feel sad, feel happy, whatever it may be, you know? So, yeah. So what advice would you give to a young man who, you know, you said you didn't want to be idolized, but there's obviously a number of men who are looking at your content, looking at you and the way you show up online and going, wow, this guy is motivating me. You've gotten the comments. What would you want them to know? What do you want to say to them?

[00:36:39] Oh, I'm not, I'm not by any means perfect at all. Like I have my struggles. I go through my stuff, you know? What's the biggest struggle in your life that's defined who you are today? One of my biggest struggles was finding out that I was like, I have too many characteristic, too many personality traits of narcissism that I'm comfortable with. That was an intense one. That was really hard to deal with. And it was a bit terrifying, to be honest,

[00:37:11] for me. And, uh, it was a lot to deal with. And, uh, because when you have those personality traits, inevitably you hurt people around you and, you know, I had to go to a lot of people and apologize and become aware of that. You know what I mean? And, uh, that was, I mean, obviously like I'm a fucking conicrator. Like, where do you think that came from? Huh? You know? So finding out, you know, I always knew that I had these traits of it, you know,

[00:37:40] I always knew that I was like, you know, I have a bit of a grandiosity issue and, you know, the kind of thing my shit doesn't stink and I'm pretty arrogant and, you know, but it's like, yeah, but that's kind of just being a cocky dude. And then, you know, when you really, really think about it, it's like, yeah, dude, you're, you're tipping pretty close. Like the, the, the good thing is, is that I've done so much analysis on myself and I've, I've talked to so many people too, and I'm talking to, it's not a therapist, but it's kind of like a therapist. He's a union scholar and, uh, he's just a great guy,

[00:38:10] super enlightened guy. And we have conversations every week about it, but, um, you know, I don't lack empathy. That's one thing. And I'm very compassionate to people and I'm very giving to people and I extend myself a lot for people. So it's not like I have the actual personality disorder unless I don't think I do at least. Right. And that's amazing. But you know, I have enough personality traits of narcissism where it's, it's a little bit scary and, um,

[00:38:38] it's caused me to become a workaholic and it's caused me to hurt people. And what I'm doing right now is just taking like a foot off the gas pedal in my career. Cause my career, you know, I worked so hard on getting to where I am. And like, I had two, three businesses that I was operating at the same time. Uh, and I just pretty much got rid of everything. I was like, I'm done. Like I can see what road I'm going on. I needed to really take care of my mental health right now. And that's why when you ask like how much do you love doing content? It's like, it's very difficult

[00:39:07] for me because, you know, I know that my old hedonism of drinking and partying got channeled into validations from views and likes and the narcissism in me love the attention kind of a thing. And now here I have this career that I'm doing incredibly well in that's tied in with my shadow. And how do I, you know, reconcile that? And the answer is that your shadow, your shadow isn't always that bad either. You know, you have to integrate it and you have to understand that it's there. So this is like

[00:39:37] the process that I'm going through right now. There's a lot going on right now. So when you, when you asked your first question, like how do you describe yourself? It's like a bit of a fucking mixed bag. You know, I'm trying to figure things out. And in some areas I'm completely doing incredibly well. I'm very figured out in other areas. I'm fucking, you know, way behind, way behind. So that's why I'm saying like, I'm not like a person to be idolized, you know? And sometimes I question if I'm actually a moral person because I don't know, you know, it's very easy to be moral

[00:40:06] when things are great in this room, there's no problems going on. We're going to be moral with each other easily. But if something were really bad to happen, am I going to be a moral person? I don't know that about myself because I've never been stressed tests like that. So like to idolize me is like, you might be idolizing someone that's fucking not that moral of a person. I don't really know. Like I believe and I hope to think that I would be moral. But like I said, it's very easy to be moral when the situation is quite comfortable, right? Yeah. Life is one giant stress test. Totally.

[00:40:38] The analogy you were giving of your shadow basically coming to the forefront because of the type, the nature of the work that you do makes me think of a person with a gambling addiction who becomes a professional poker player. Totally. Totally. They just feed two egos because they're really good at one thing and they're scratching another itch at the same time. Yeah. So the thing, so you're exactly right. So what do I do about this then? It's like,

[00:41:04] well, on the bright side, I built this beautiful platform that people will listen to me. And I know what people need too as well, because I am very in tune with certain things as well. Psychology, philosophy, the books that I've read have helped me so much in that area. So it's like, why don't I use my platform to help people? And really, and, and, you know, mostly my platform is that anyways, like I'm teaching people how to lose weight, how to gain muscle. A lot of it is, is that, but okay. So I have this thing that's kind of pretty shit for, for my human nature,

[00:41:33] but I can use it for good and I have to be responsible with it. And that's true. This is a big thing that I learned. Like I thought I could handle the power. I thought I was strong enough to handle the power. And anyone who thinks that can't obviously cannot handle the fucking power. That's the last, it's Boromir, right? That's Boromir, right? So I just watched that film the other day. Yeah, it was so good, man. Lord of the Rings, best movies, like of all time. Like, you know, it's so funny. I had this conversation with like my friend and my brother and I was like, name a better movie than Lord of the Rings. Is there one? Like, I don't think so. They're so good. They're great, but I would say Gladiators.

[00:42:03] Gladiators is so good, but is it better than Lord of the Rings? I would say yes. Yeah. Gladiators is amazing, but I don't think so. I'd say Lord of the Rings though. Which one? All of them. You're going to put all three? Oh, they're just so many. You counting The Hobbit in there? Huh? You counting The Hobbit in there? No, just the three. The trilogy. You're going to put a new one? The Hunt for Golem? Yeah, I am. I'm not soon, I think. Yeah, I'm going to watch. I'm not like super pumped about it because I'm kind of like, I have Lord of the Rings. I already had that and it's mine, you know? So I already have it, but maybe. But the point is, is that- Back to Boromir.

[00:42:31] Yeah, back to Boromir is that the problem was, is that I thought I could handle the power and I found out really fucking quick, the story of Icarus. So that happened and now I'm trying to relinquish power. That's the reason why I stopped doing my businesses and I stopped doing all these things. I'm like, I need to stay away from power for a long time. I'm like, and will I ever be ready to handle it? I don't know, but I know right now I'm too weak. Power corrupts. Absolutely. You can have the best of intentions. I mean, we see it with politicians all the time. Yeah.

[00:42:58] You get into office, you achieve a certain amount of power and then your morals get looser and looser. It's funny. I was even having this conversation with my wife. We went to this when we were living in the condo, there was this like condo barbecue thing and you see the people who sit on the condo board and they're walking around with that similar arrogance that you talked about content creators having because they acquired a certain amount of power

[00:43:26] and what would be an otherwise lovely person suddenly has a sense of arrogance to them. Yeah. Power corrupts even at the smallest of levels. Totally. And it's like, how do you maintain self-awareness when it's feeding every part of that ego? Yeah. Well, that's, that's the, that's the conundrum here, right? That's totally the conundrum. And you know, the reason why I'm so open, like all my friends and family that are close to me,

[00:43:56] I've had this conversation with them. I'm like, you make sure I don't step over the line. And tell me I need you. Right. Because I might be doing something where I think I'm doing something right. I'm not like, this is a classic case of narcissism is you cloak your narcissism in some type of virtue. Oh, I I'm going to work so hard. I need to work hard to build this business so I can take care of my family or whatever it may be. And it's like, that's for you, dude. Like you can just get a job and we all love you, you know? So a lot of the times that's

[00:44:22] what happens. Um, and I'm very open with the people around me that are closest to me. And I'm like, don't fucking let me do this. If you smell it, let me know. Right. And I'm also very aware of it too. And like, you know, the thing is like when you have these conversations, it becomes so much easier. Like they're so taboo, right? They're so taboo to have, but when you have these conversations, it's like, Oh, it's out in the air now. So it's like, I don't have really, I'm not going to have a successful time doing this. Right. You know? And that's actually a good point of being, becoming conscious of things. That's the whole

[00:44:51] point is bringing that ugly unconscious content into your consciousness so that you're aware of it. So you don't, you know, unconsciously take advantage of people or exploit people or use people or, you know what I mean? So what's the next step in this journey for you? I'm trying to move my content over to, um, a realm of psychological transformation as well as physical transformation. That's really kind of what my duty is. And in my YouTube,

[00:45:17] in my long form at the end, I always do a thing called deep dinner and I eat my last meal. And I talked about a very deep concept, something that I've read, something that's going on in my life. And I'm, I just started doing this series and like on my YouTube, the people love it. Cause they're like, Oh my God, I get to really, really see, you know, what's going on in this guy. So that is slowly becoming more of the common style that I want to do. And like, I've been doing some book content, uh, every once in a while, I'll throw in like a video of me at the cafe and I'll talk

[00:45:45] about a quote that I read and that mixed in with working out and improving your physical health is the direction I want to go in. And yeah, you know, like I said, it's, it's kind of hard. Um, it's kind of hard having this career nested in an ugly part of my shadow. Uh, you know what I mean? But, uh, like I said, it's keeping it under control. It can only be used for good. It's the same thing with narcissism. Like people hear narcissism and they freak out and it's a, well, there's also

[00:46:11] golden narcissism. Cause without narcissism, you're just depressed about life. If you have no, if you have no ego, you're just like, you know what I mean? You're like not being egoless, depressed ego. You're depressed. Right. So in narcissism is also gold, right? It's that energy to, to, to go take life by, you know, by the horns and like really by the bull by the horns and get after it. Right. So, you know, you can't just look at everything. Like there's a positive component and a negative component to everything, and there's no way you're going to be perfect. So what you have

[00:46:40] to do is just try your best to, you know, utilize the most positive parts of the things that even you believe to be negative. I want to, you made a comment earlier. You said, uh, I think it was emotionally you're at the level of a 15 year old boy. Yeah. I want you to, someone did this exercise

[00:47:03] with me once and it profoundly changed my perspective on the little boy inside. I want you to envision yourself as that 15 year old boy, you walk into a room and he's just sitting on his bed, feet dangling. You sit next to him. He has no clue what's coming in life. What would you say to that 15 year old

[00:47:28] version of you that he needed to hear that no one ever said to him? What I needed to hear at 15 or seven or five or whatever it was, was that I just needed a blessing. I think it was you, you are good for who you are. You don't need to be anybody to be good. You can, you can be good

[00:47:57] just in being who you are and I support you and I love you. And that's what I tell him. And I would say, you don't need to be something great to be loved, you know? So you say that to yourself now? Oh, all the time. Yeah. All the time. But it's, it's, you know, the thing is for me is like, um,

[00:48:23] I'm an incredibly competitive and ambitious person. Two reasons. One is because naturally that's just how I am too. Like I have, I have a love for life and I want to move towards what's good, true and beautiful move towards becoming something more than me, right? God, whatever you want to say. And then there's another part of me that, you know, obviously just needed, needed to be more, to be accepted. That's part of the persona too, right? Like why, why don't, why am I not more just my true self all the time? Right? Because the true self wasn't enough

[00:48:53] at some point. So yeah, he needed to hear that really, really, really badly. And, uh, I think most people need to hear that. You know, I think that's, that's a common thing is like, you know, when you have a child, you know, you're supposed to bless them. You're not supposed to curse them. And the blessing comes from looking them in the eyes and say, I see you and I love you,

[00:49:17] you know? So I think that's, uh, I think that's what most people need. And it was something that I needed, I guess, when I was younger. And, you know, it's, it's weird because I come from a very loving family too, you know? And it's just hard. It's a very hard thing to, to peel apart, to know where this, where this hole is. And that's kind of what I'm on the search for is like really excavating

[00:49:42] and going deep to find out like, wait, wait, wait, what happened, you know? And yeah. So I think, I think that's totally what I would need to hear. And I think that's what most people need to hear. And that's what I'm going to tell my kid. You want to be a father? Oh, absolutely. More than anything. Yeah. I just had a little boy two and a half months ago. Congratulations. First. Thank you. First. That's amazing.

[00:50:06] And it's, when I tell you it's completely like through a grenade into my perspective of life, just blew everything up. How so? So much shit doesn't matter. Well, you found out what, what really matters, what meaning is. Yeah. What really is meaningful. Yeah. You know, I was afraid for a long time while my wife was pregnant because I didn't feel any kind

[00:50:34] of connection to him. I had a conversation with one of my best friends. His kid was about a year when my wife got pregnant and I was just like, Hey, you know, I'm not really feeling anything right now. Like, is it coming? This connection that everyone talks about online, you know, getting caught in that rabbit hole. And he talked about how he also didn't feel that connection. Um, and surprisingly,

[00:51:02] a lot of dads don't feel that connection until the kid is born. And even then they don't feel it because the kid's not really interacting with you. They kind of just need mom. Right. Um, but when they start to sort of see, look at you and my son just started doing that literally a couple of days ago where he would like, look at me and then pause and then smile. And I would be able to get that same reaction multiple times. So it's not a one-off where now I'm like, there's so much shit that I

[00:51:29] carry that I don't need to be carrying them because it doesn't fucking matter. Yeah. It's not worth my time. My energy presence is so much more valuable than anything else. And just being there for him is all that matters. It's unbelievable in the best of ways, but it'll also, it really highlights your insecurities too. In the way that you're seeking the validation from your

[00:51:59] child? No, more like I'm not doing enough. I don't make enough. I see. I don't provide enough. And then there's the tug of war. Well, to provide, I got to work more, but if I work more, I'm not present. Do you think he would say that? I think what he needs is not a perfect parent. He just needs a present one. Yes. Right. So I think when you talk about, I need to do more and I need to make more, I think that's you talking about what you think you should do and not what your son

[00:52:27] wants, because you know what your son wants? You to be there. Just attention. He wants you to love him, take care of him. Right. So, you know, a lot of men have this natural instinct. Oh my God, I got to provide, I got a baby now. I got to give him the best life ever. It's like, you got to look him in the eyes and tell him you love him a lot. Right. That's what you really need to do. And I also, you know, would say that like, you know, your kid loves you whether you think it or

[00:52:53] not, because he has no choice and it's natural. And, you know, you don't need the eyes to look at you to know he loves you. He absolutely does love you. And I don't think, and I'm not trying to make any, I'm not trying to be harsh here at all, but I don't think that you should seek the validation from your son because it's putting an adult expectation on a baby. That baby just loves

[00:53:16] you. You know, he loves you regardless of what you think he feels about you. So it's a very beautiful thing that you had a baby, you know, and that's amazing. And, you know, I do want that too. I'm envious of that. And it's, if God blesses me with it, I'm, it's going to be sooner than later. And, uh, but yeah, that's, that's amazing. That's amazing. I, I'm very cognizant and aware that I'm,

[00:53:43] my wife and I are blessed that we were able to have a child because I've had a number of people on this podcast talk about their challenges with that. Right. And you realize how hard it is and how long it could take. Um, I'm very fortunate in that sense, brother, thank you so much for coming on. That was amazing. I know. And we got to do this again, because I'd love to keep up with this journey, the real one that you're on. Um, because I genuinely believe in what you're doing

[00:54:13] is not just good for you, but there's going to be a ripple effect on the people in your life. And I'm not talking about the, yes, people who follow you online. Sure. But the people who are in your life, I think the work that you're doing benefits them as much as it does you because your relationships are going to be richer for it. Absolutely. I appreciate you. And, um, let's keep in touch and do this again. Oh, I love it, man. I appreciate you having me on. Of course. That was great. Thank you so much, everybody.