Your Past Experience Will Shape Your Parenting Approach: Jess VanderWier | Ep 93 - Gent's Talk

[00:00:00] So does it take longer to develop in men or do men not have the same role models?

[00:00:06] And maybe do they have different expectations that are given to them at an earlier age?

[00:00:10] Right.

[00:00:11] And maybe they're given messages like don't cry, man up, boys don't cry, stuff like that.

[00:00:16] And then they don't ever get the chance to regulate with a calm and collected caregiver

[00:00:20] until they don't develop those tools.

[00:00:30] So Jess, welcome to the Gents Talk podcast.

[00:00:45] Thank you so much for having me on.

[00:00:46] I'm so excited to talk to you today.

[00:00:48] Oh, I'm the excited one.

[00:00:50] I am not a dad yet.

[00:00:53] I'd like to be one day, but I have a lot of friends who are parents and I obviously

[00:00:58] have parents.

[00:01:00] And I think there's a growing curiosity around parenthood and how to become good parents, you

[00:01:08] know, like my parents' generation of parenting is vastly different than what you hear and see

[00:01:15] today.

[00:01:16] And I was scrolling through some of your social posts and seeing some of the commentary

[00:01:20] in the comment section, but also seeing some of the stuff that you've talked about

[00:01:24] that I thought were very interesting.

[00:01:27] So firstly, why don't we start with who Jess is?

[00:01:30] For those who don't know who you are or just know you by your public persona.

[00:01:33] Who's Jess?

[00:01:34] Who's Jess?

[00:01:35] That's a really good question.

[00:01:36] I was like putting people on the spot to start it.

[00:01:38] Yeah, I love that.

[00:01:39] I like being put on the spot.

[00:01:40] I think it's good.

[00:01:41] Usually I'm the one interviewing people, so I was excited to be interviewed today.

[00:01:46] First off, I'm a mom, so I have three girls and they're seven, four and two.

[00:01:53] So a lot of my life, these last seven years have been motherhood.

[00:01:58] And it's been a real experience like what you talked about.

[00:02:02] I was lucky enough to grow up with parents who were really involved and present and

[00:02:06] amazing parents, I think actually far ahead of their time in terms of how they parented

[00:02:11] me, which I feel really privileged to have.

[00:02:14] But even still, parenthood has been a journey and it's been a constant adjusting

[00:02:19] and trying to understand how to best support my kids and who I want to be and my values.

[00:02:24] So that's one part of who I am.

[00:02:26] I'm also a registered psychotherapist.

[00:02:29] So before I even had kids, I was working with families and I was working specifically

[00:02:33] in complex behavior.

[00:02:35] So I worked actually for the government.

[00:02:37] We're both from Ontario.

[00:02:38] I lived in Guelph at the time and I worked for a government-run program where I worked

[00:02:42] with kids in the city of Guelph who often had dual diagnosis.

[00:02:46] So they would have intellectual disability and maybe another diagnosis, mental health

[00:02:51] diagnosis.

[00:02:52] And these were kids that were often at risk of getting kicked out of school, maybe being

[00:02:57] in jail, maybe being on the streets, especially as they got older.

[00:03:01] And so my job there was to help with the complex behavior.

[00:03:04] So before I even became a parent myself, I was really deeply in this world of children

[00:03:09] and their behavior and understanding them.

[00:03:12] And then of course when I had my own kids it was taken to the next level.

[00:03:15] But real life experience.

[00:03:16] Yeah, exactly.

[00:03:17] It was a real life experiment and so much harder.

[00:03:19] Like you think, oh I've done this for years.

[00:03:21] It should be a breeze.

[00:03:22] No, it was not a breeze.

[00:03:25] But that's a huge part of who I am too.

[00:03:26] And I feel like I've been living and breathing child behavior and development for my entire

[00:03:31] adult life which has been really amazing.

[00:03:34] And then who else is Jess?

[00:03:36] Jess is also a wife.

[00:03:38] I have my husband Scott who's a huge part of my business and part of my life and

[00:03:43] my best friend.

[00:03:44] So we've been married now for 10 years which is exciting.

[00:03:47] Congrats.

[00:03:48] I want to talk to you about Portugal because I think we're just there.

[00:03:50] I was in Italy.

[00:03:51] Oh, you're in Italy.

[00:03:52] But I've been to Portugal before.

[00:03:53] You have been to Portugal.

[00:03:54] I love it.

[00:03:55] Oh, we're going there on a 10-year anniversary trip in a couple weeks.

[00:03:58] That's exciting.

[00:03:59] Have you been?

[00:04:00] No.

[00:04:01] Oh, you're gonna love it.

[00:04:02] It's beautiful.

[00:04:03] The food's incredible and even though you're converting from Canadian to Euro,

[00:04:08] you're still gonna find it's very affordable.

[00:04:09] Oh.

[00:04:10] Yeah.

[00:04:11] You're gonna have a blast.

[00:04:12] How long are you going for?

[00:04:13] Yeah.

[00:04:14] Lisbon?

[00:04:15] Lisbon, yeah.

[00:04:16] Porto?

[00:04:17] No, Porto.

[00:04:18] Lisbon and Aresira and then we'll go along the coast and do the beachy stuff too.

[00:04:23] Nice.

[00:04:24] Yeah.

[00:04:25] Anyway, we're really excited.

[00:04:26] This is now a travel episode.

[00:04:27] This is now a travel episode.

[00:04:28] Well, I saw you in Spain for some reason I thought maybe you had just mentioned

[00:04:32] that you've been to Portugal before.

[00:04:33] I had been.

[00:04:34] Yeah.

[00:04:35] How was Spain?

[00:04:36] Incredible.

[00:04:37] Spain was incredible.

[00:04:38] So I was in Spain in November and then my girlfriend and a few of our friends

[00:04:43] decided we want to take, you know when the vacation finally makes it out of the group chat,

[00:04:47] we decided we're gonna go to Italy.

[00:04:49] Okay.

[00:04:50] And we just sort of found really great tickets and we just booked it and we made it happen.

[00:04:53] It rained for a lot of it but honestly it couldn't take away from the magic of it.

[00:04:57] Oh, that's amazing.

[00:04:58] And it's beautiful.

[00:04:59] Europe is just a whole other experience.

[00:05:01] But I digress.

[00:05:03] Yes.

[00:05:04] Parenting today seems like a very, very, it's like holding a grenade.

[00:05:11] You know, depending on who you ask, everyone, you know, you really want to see a person's

[00:05:17] limits.

[00:05:18] You talk to them about their kids.

[00:05:20] When it comes to parenting, how you parent the education system, values, morals, cultural

[00:05:26] biases, religious biases, all these different layers of complexities.

[00:05:32] As a psychotherapist who's worked with children, what's the biggest thing you've seen

[00:05:39] that parents these days should be more mindful of?

[00:05:43] Oh, that's such a good question.

[00:05:46] And I feel like there's so many places that I could go.

[00:05:49] But I think one of the most important things that we can do as a parent is really understand

[00:05:54] kind of all these past experiences that bring us into being a parent and reflecting, I

[00:06:01] think is the number one thing we can do as a parent that is going to help us be

[00:06:05] the best parent possible.

[00:06:08] And what I mean by that is, I think like you said, like you grew up and your parents maybe

[00:06:12] had a different style of parenting than maybe you want to eventually.

[00:06:15] And a lot of people that don't take this time to reflect and repair kind of on those past

[00:06:20] wounds will repeat.

[00:06:22] So we'll repeat what we don't repair.

[00:06:24] And I think that that's one thing that our generation of parents is doing really

[00:06:28] well.

[00:06:29] Like we're actually, a lot of us are open to reflecting.

[00:06:32] And so even like I said, I had a good childhood.

[00:06:35] My parents were ahead of their time.

[00:06:37] They're very gentle.

[00:06:38] My dad was a very gentle father in a time when most fathers were spanking their kids and

[00:06:44] you know, sending them to put their nose in the corner or whatever it was.

[00:06:47] He was very gentle.

[00:06:49] And I still have things that I need to reflect on in order to be the mom that I want to

[00:06:53] be for my kids.

[00:06:54] So I think reflecting on our childhood is and then deciding what do I want to

[00:06:59] take away?

[00:07:00] And what do I want to leave behind?

[00:07:01] I think that's the most powerful thing that we can really do.

[00:07:05] You mentioned spanking.

[00:07:06] Yeah, let's just jump right in.

[00:07:08] Okay.

[00:07:09] So one of your social posts talked about a father who when his son would do

[00:07:15] something wrong, he would go and speak to him and then he would spank him as

[00:07:21] a means to make sure he understood this is not okay.

[00:07:27] I've had several conversations with people on this podcast who've talked

[00:07:30] about when they've grown up, they've been spanked at different times.

[00:07:34] And there's a fine line between being spanked in child abuse.

[00:07:37] Let's just make sure that that's clear.

[00:07:38] We're not talking that.

[00:07:40] But I've been spanked as well as a kid.

[00:07:44] And growing up now, when I do reflect and look back on it, I must admit

[00:07:48] that I don't necessarily see the issues with when that happened to me because

[00:07:54] I did learn something from it.

[00:07:56] But I will admit that I've had conversations with people who've told me

[00:08:01] their stories and I'm like, that's excessive.

[00:08:05] Where do you stand on that front?

[00:08:06] Why is it a good thing or a bad thing?

[00:08:08] And what's an alternative maybe to it?

[00:08:11] It's such a good question.

[00:08:12] And I love that you brought up that you feel like you learned something.

[00:08:15] So before I answer, can I ask you to just share maybe one of your

[00:08:19] experiences with spanking and kind of what you felt like you learned from that?

[00:08:23] So I remember one day, I was seven, eight years old, something like that.

[00:08:33] And I was playing with my toys and it was just my mom and I.

[00:08:36] And I had knocked something over one of my LEGO sets or whatever.

[00:08:41] They broke and I just cussed out loud, like really loud.

[00:08:45] And my mom looked at me and she goes, OK, just wait till your dad's home.

[00:08:50] OK. And I mean, that was fearful enough already.

[00:08:53] My father was more the disciplinarian.

[00:08:56] Always showed me love, told me he loved me, the whole work.

[00:08:58] Never doubted it for a second, but he was a disciplinarian between the two.

[00:09:04] And when he came home and my mom told him he yelled at me

[00:09:07] and then he spanked me once on my butt.

[00:09:11] And it wasn't like a beat.

[00:09:14] It was like what I would imagine today feels like doing one of these.

[00:09:18] Right.

[00:09:19] But it was enough that it instilled this idea that if I did something like that

[00:09:24] again, that would be the outcome.

[00:09:26] Right. And it was so few and far in between, as in like rarely did it ever happen.

[00:09:32] Right. But that was the experience and that was the lesson I'd say I took away from it.

[00:09:37] So the lesson that you learned was not to swear or cuss when you

[00:09:41] like when you were angry or upset.

[00:09:43] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, as a kid, I mean, I do it now.

[00:09:47] It's changed and we become adults.

[00:09:48] Yeah, exactly.

[00:09:50] Yeah. I think that's such a great example.

[00:09:51] And that's the stories that I hear from a lot of people who are on the fence,

[00:09:54] like, should I spank my kids or should I not?

[00:09:57] And what I like to say is yes.

[00:09:59] So sometimes in this scenario, you were spanked

[00:10:03] and you don't feel like it traumatized you.

[00:10:05] Right. And so there are a lot of people I talk to, they were spanked growing up

[00:10:08] and it was traumatizing.

[00:10:10] OK. Right.

[00:10:11] So for example, my husband was spanked growing up

[00:10:13] and it was done in a way that was very painful, like emotionally painful for him.

[00:10:18] And what I would say, even despite that, spanking still

[00:10:22] was maybe not the most effective way to teach you that lesson.

[00:10:26] And I would say I actually have a pretty hard stance against spanking.

[00:10:30] That would be probably the only thing.

[00:10:32] Like I feel like there's a lot of gray area and I imagine the whole thing.

[00:10:36] Yeah. A giant gray area.

[00:10:37] It's a giant gray area.

[00:10:39] Yes, parenting is a giant gray area.

[00:10:40] But I think spanking is is one line that I really have.

[00:10:44] And what I'll say about that is because, A, there's no research

[00:10:48] to show the effectiveness of spanking.

[00:10:50] So in the situation here where you you learned a lesson

[00:10:52] and you did something new, there's a few things that are happening.

[00:10:56] But one of the big things is fear is what's motivating you to make that change.

[00:11:00] Right. The fear of your father, fear of getting hurt again.

[00:11:04] And so you're making a change, but it's not rooted in this

[00:11:06] understanding of why what you did was wrong or why what you did

[00:11:10] might not serve you or help you.

[00:11:12] And it's also not teaching you a new skill.

[00:11:14] So it's also not giving you a tool.

[00:11:16] So the next time you're angry and upset, you're going to do this instead.

[00:11:19] You're going to take a deep breath.

[00:11:20] You're going to talk to your mom about how you feel.

[00:11:23] So you're kind of left now as a child that's been spanked and fearful,

[00:11:28] but you don't have a new tool to deal with your anger.

[00:11:30] Okay. So now your child is like, OK, I know what I'm angry.

[00:11:34] I can't swear, but I don't know what else I can do.

[00:11:38] And so what we often see in kids who are spanked is we might see them stop.

[00:11:42] So we might see them stop doing something like yelling or swearing or getting angry,

[00:11:48] but they haven't learned a new skill yet.

[00:11:50] So now when they're angry, they're still left with like, I have all these

[00:11:52] feelings inside of me and I don't know what to do.

[00:11:55] So then we see that same child might go and start hitting their brother next time.

[00:11:59] Right. And now, OK, how are we going to stop the hitting?

[00:12:02] We might spank them.

[00:12:04] So now we're going to spank them for hitting and OK, the hitting stops.

[00:12:07] Right. So, oh, it was effective.

[00:12:09] The hitting stops and they never hit again.

[00:12:11] And now next time they're angry, they're they're kicking or they're calling

[00:12:15] names or they're running away.

[00:12:17] And so what can happen with spanking is it feels effective.

[00:12:20] It feels like the child never did this behavior again.

[00:12:22] But because we're never getting to the root and we're not teaching a new skill,

[00:12:26] we start to see the cycle of punishment happen and the child

[00:12:30] like stops having a solution that they don't have a new way to behave.

[00:12:34] Does that make sense?

[00:12:35] Yeah. So essentially, they're just looking.

[00:12:37] They find a different way to express that emotion

[00:12:40] until that emotion is essentially or that way rather that mechanism is ruled out.

[00:12:46] And then they go and they find another one and then just rinse and repeat the cycle.

[00:12:50] Yeah. And the research actually backs that up.

[00:12:52] So they say that children who are spanked are often more aggressive

[00:12:55] or angry than children who are not.

[00:12:58] And so I was an aggressive angry kid.

[00:13:00] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:02] Tell me about that.

[00:13:03] So what was it like growing up like as an aggressive or angry child?

[00:13:08] My like my aggressiveness and anger stemmed whenever something didn't go my way.

[00:13:15] If I got upset by something, I didn't quite know how to.

[00:13:20] I didn't know how to articulate emotions.

[00:13:22] I didn't know how to express any of that.

[00:13:24] My parents, you know, did the best they could with what they knew.

[00:13:28] Yeah, exactly.

[00:13:28] They grew up that way too.

[00:13:30] And a byproduct of that was also them coming from to Canada from a civil war.

[00:13:35] So like the last thing that, you know, on their mind was,

[00:13:39] are we having a conversation with our son to make sure that he's able to express himself?

[00:13:42] Or are we making sure that we put food on the table?

[00:13:44] Exactly. And that's I think the part where now as I get older,

[00:13:48] I reflect your point on these things and I go, I can understand limitations.

[00:13:54] But I can see how that would have generated some aggression.

[00:13:58] But I'm curious as you speak about, you know,

[00:14:01] communicating with the child to see how they can express themselves.

[00:14:06] At what age is it reasonable to expect them to be able to articulate themselves that way?

[00:14:11] Right. Like at seven years old, eight years old, can you say to them

[00:14:15] when they do something wrong, can you set them down and explain

[00:14:17] like would they have the cognition to understand what you're saying to them?

[00:14:22] Yeah, that's a great question.

[00:14:24] So ideally what we want to do is actually start that when our kids are really little.

[00:14:27] So I have a two year old and I'm already what I call narrating.

[00:14:31] So basically imagining like you're watching a sports game or something,

[00:14:35] you know how the sportscaster is like broadcasting the whole thing?

[00:14:38] Like I don't know sports, so I can't make it out.

[00:14:40] The only thing we watch is Formula One.

[00:14:42] So that's the only thing I have.

[00:14:44] But we watch Formula One.

[00:14:45] Let's say we watch it every weekend and you hear the sportscasters, right?

[00:14:48] They're like Max for staff in this or Louis Hamilton in this.

[00:14:51] And so it's the same thing that we want to do with their kids.

[00:14:53] We kind of want to just start by just sportscasting out what they're doing.

[00:14:56] Right? Oh, I see you hit your sister.

[00:14:58] Look at her face. Her face is really sad.

[00:15:00] When you hit it makes your sister sad.

[00:15:03] So you start by just sportscasting it out and just saying what you see.

[00:15:06] And that actually helps a child start to make a connection between cause and effect.

[00:15:11] So I see that in my toddler.

[00:15:12] I'm sportscasting constantly in my house.

[00:15:15] Like I'm basically always like, OK, Margot,

[00:15:19] I see that you hit your sister and oh, look, her face is so sad.

[00:15:22] When you hit it hurts.

[00:15:24] And she's starting to make these connections between her behavior

[00:15:27] and how somebody else feels or I'll say something like, oh, Margot,

[00:15:31] I see that you didn't get the red cup and you really wanted it.

[00:15:35] But I gave you the pink cup. Oh, you're so mad.

[00:15:38] And I'll just say what I see out loud.

[00:15:40] And so I'm starting to give her those connections.

[00:15:42] If we can do that starting from a young age,

[00:15:44] then typically between the ages of five to seven, we start to see a shift.

[00:15:49] And it's called the five to seven shift.

[00:15:51] And what happens is that language that you've now given them

[00:15:55] in these early years of their development, they can start to take on for themselves.

[00:15:59] So my older child who's actually seven, she can say, oh, man,

[00:16:02] I really wanted the red cup and you gave me the blue cup.

[00:16:05] And now I'm mad, mummy, because I've given her that language.

[00:16:09] So ideally our kids between the ages five to seven

[00:16:12] and four are more sensitive, like really sensitive,

[00:16:15] highly sensitive, deeply feeling kids probably closer to nine.

[00:16:19] They should be able to start to have some logic and reasoning with you.

[00:16:23] And it's important to note that toddlers don't even have the capability to think logically.

[00:16:27] So often we send them to time out or we give them a spanking or we get angry at them

[00:16:31] when they can't even understand, like their brain doesn't even have that capability.

[00:16:35] At what age does that develop?

[00:16:37] We start. Yeah, around five to seven, we start to see the shift,

[00:16:41] but it doesn't fully develop into the early 20s.

[00:16:43] That's what we got to give our kids and our teens a lot of grace,

[00:16:47] because even our teens don't have a fully developed ability to think logically

[00:16:52] or reasonably or control their impulses.

[00:16:55] Yeah, that's a big one.

[00:16:56] Yeah, so we could get into teens, but that's a whole other ballgame.

[00:16:59] Does it differ between like, does the 20s piece differ between men and women?

[00:17:06] I only make fun of guys and say it takes guys longer.

[00:17:08] Yeah. Yeah, that's a good question.

[00:17:11] And I think what it really comes down to is have they had like children and youth

[00:17:16] and even young adults who've had the ability to be with a parent

[00:17:19] who can teach them these skills, it will develop faster.

[00:17:23] So does it take longer to develop in men or do men not have the same role models?

[00:17:30] And maybe do they have different expectations that are given to them at an earlier age?

[00:17:34] And maybe they're given messages like, don't cry, man up, boys don't cry,

[00:17:39] stuff like that.

[00:17:39] And then they don't ever get the chance to regulate with a calm and collected

[00:17:43] caregiver until they don't develop those tools.

[00:17:46] What would the effects be on a young man who grows up being told those kinds of things?

[00:17:52] And then anytime those emotions are expressed or they do something wrong,

[00:17:59] there is aggression of some kind, whether it's emotional aggression

[00:18:03] or physical aggression towards them from a parent or an authority figure.

[00:18:06] How does that impact a person?

[00:18:09] I think it impacts them in a really profound way.

[00:18:12] If you imagine that growing up, anytime you feel sad, anytime something

[00:18:17] doesn't feel quite right to you and you express that and then you're told

[00:18:20] you can't do that or someone spanks you or gets angry at you, you learn

[00:18:25] to shut that down.

[00:18:26] And that's actually a defense mechanism.

[00:18:27] So a young boy is going to learn I can't be sad.

[00:18:31] Sadness is wrong.

[00:18:32] So when I feel sad, I'm actually going to come across as angry

[00:18:36] because angry is okay.

[00:18:37] Like I'm allowed to be angry.

[00:18:39] That's our default.

[00:18:40] That's our default.

[00:18:41] Yeah.

[00:18:41] And so to put up a defense so that I don't have to feel sad, I'm going

[00:18:46] to come across as angry or mean or rude and maybe these kids turn into

[00:18:51] like the bad kids in school, the ones who always get into trouble or into

[00:18:54] fights and that's a defense mechanism.

[00:18:57] And really when we look at anger even in adults, often the root of

[00:19:00] anger is sadness and we can't help even an adult who's struggling

[00:19:05] with anger issues until they can actually be sad.

[00:19:09] And cry.

[00:19:10] And that's such a difficult thing, especially for men when you grow

[00:19:13] up your whole life hearing like it's not okay to be sad.

[00:19:17] Gordon Newfield, Dr. Gordon Newfield, who's actually a Canadian researcher

[00:19:22] and one of my favorite people to look at in the child development field,

[00:19:25] he will say that sadness is actually the goal oftentimes when we want

[00:19:31] to heal a child who's angry, we actually need them to get to a

[00:19:34] place where they can cry and be sad.

[00:19:36] And I think the same is true for adults.

[00:19:40] How do you do that as a parent?

[00:19:43] If you have a child who you know, and perhaps it's not something

[00:19:47] that you're doing as a parent, you're not trying to dismiss emotions.

[00:19:51] You're actually encouraging conversation, expressing the emotions.

[00:19:55] But for whatever reason, whether it's just their collective friends

[00:19:58] or the environment that they're in, they're suppressing

[00:20:02] that kind of thing.

[00:20:03] What route does a parent have?

[00:20:06] Yeah, I think that's such a good question.

[00:20:10] Do you mind if I go back to your story about being angry?

[00:20:14] So if I imagine you angry as a child, can you explain the situation

[00:20:19] a little bit more before you were swearing what was happening there?

[00:20:25] I was playing with a Lego set.

[00:20:26] I was I think I'd spent whatever whatever felt to me like a massive

[00:20:31] amount of time putting together this giant tower of some kind.

[00:20:35] And I think I had messed something up.

[00:20:38] And in order to fix it, I had to basically take it apart and redo it.

[00:20:42] And I got so mad that I just swore and I just knocked it over

[00:20:46] and just exploded and it felt good to do it.

[00:20:48] Of course, it does feel good.

[00:20:50] So feels good to knock things over.

[00:20:52] Oh, that's already got smash rooms now for people to just go in and break things.

[00:20:55] Yeah, it's going to say now that now we just go to the gym

[00:20:57] and we just work out there.

[00:21:00] But yeah, that would be the that would that would have been the situation there.

[00:21:04] Right. OK, so on the surface, your mom comes in and you're angry.

[00:21:07] You're smashing things around and you're swearing and you're yelling.

[00:21:10] Here's what I would do in that situation.

[00:21:12] So I'd see you and I would see an angry child who's just broke his Lego set.

[00:21:17] And that's very, very frustrating.

[00:21:19] I would see you.

[00:21:20] I would come and I would get down right beside you and I'd be like,

[00:21:23] man, you're really angry right now.

[00:21:25] You broke your Lego set.

[00:21:26] That's really tricky.

[00:21:28] And you'd probably be like, yeah, this net like it's so I'm so frustrated.

[00:21:33] Like, yeah, it's super frustrating to break your Lego set.

[00:21:36] You tell me a little bit more about what you're trying to make.

[00:21:39] And I would just sit there and I would try and be really calm and regulated.

[00:21:43] And I actually wouldn't even talk about your swearing.

[00:21:45] I wouldn't even mention it.

[00:21:47] And I think that's something that parents struggle with

[00:21:49] because we don't like to hear kids swearing or being angry like that.

[00:21:53] But that's actually our own uncomfortable feelings towards them being upset.

[00:21:58] And that's why that reflection piece comes up, right?

[00:22:00] Because what does it say about me as a parent?

[00:22:02] If my child swearing or my child's angry or my child's upset,

[00:22:05] that actually has more to do with me than it has to do with you.

[00:22:08] So I was funny.

[00:22:10] We're going to get back to that.

[00:22:11] OK, yes, let's get back to it.

[00:22:13] So I would sit down beside you and I'd be like, man, that's really tricky.

[00:22:16] It's really hard when your Lego sets broken.

[00:22:19] And what I think might happen, because I actually had the same thing

[00:22:22] happen with my seven year old this morning, not Lego, but a different

[00:22:26] thing got broken and she was having a similar reaction to you.

[00:22:30] And I would just sit there and I would just wait for you to join me on the floor.

[00:22:36] And what I think would happen was eventually, I think once all your anger was out,

[00:22:40] I think you would realize that you're actually just really sad.

[00:22:43] All the work that you did on that Lego is now destroyed.

[00:22:47] And now you have to rebuild it again.

[00:22:49] And I think underneath that angry reaction is actually someone who maybe

[00:22:52] needs to let out some tears about what happened.

[00:22:55] That was really hard.

[00:22:57] So I would wait for the tears and maybe they won't come out.

[00:23:00] And then I would talk about, OK, so that was really tricky.

[00:23:04] And this is hard.

[00:23:06] And then I would narrate again, I would say the whole situation that happened.

[00:23:08] And then I'd be like, I wonder next time when you're really angry about your Lego,

[00:23:12] what might be a more helpful solution?

[00:23:15] And then I'd brainstorm that.

[00:23:16] So it's just a different approach to a similar, a similar issue.

[00:23:23] I'm going to play devil's advocate for a moment.

[00:23:24] Please.

[00:23:27] There are people out there who would hear that exact

[00:23:33] piece of advice, you just share it and go, that would create an adult who

[00:23:39] will call them soft.

[00:23:40] That's the language that they typically use.

[00:23:42] Yeah.

[00:23:45] And that there has been a growing

[00:23:47] and I admittedly don't know where I fall on the spectrum because I'm just like,

[00:23:51] I don't again, I don't have kids.

[00:23:52] So I don't have the experience of going through that.

[00:23:55] But there are people who would call that type of response to kids soft

[00:24:00] because you're softening them.

[00:24:01] What would you say to that?

[00:24:03] Oh, I love that question.

[00:24:05] I was just talking about that actually.

[00:24:06] Oh, I'm going to turn it first the other day.

[00:24:08] Great. Let's get into it.

[00:24:09] Because yes, I hear that all the time, like, oh, it's going to turn them

[00:24:12] into snowflakes or they're going to be soft.

[00:24:14] And I guess I have two responses.

[00:24:16] First, is it OK that a child grows up and has some softness to them?

[00:24:21] Right. Like how are we serving, especially young boys

[00:24:24] or men, teaching them that they have to be hard from a young age?

[00:24:27] Like we see high rates of mental illness.

[00:24:30] We see struggles with depression and anxiety.

[00:24:33] We see men who struggle to communicate in relationships.

[00:24:37] So is it serving us to harden them at a young age?

[00:24:40] I guess would be one question.

[00:24:41] There. Yeah.

[00:24:42] Another comment that I really like to think about is this.

[00:24:46] As a parent, my role is to show my child how I eventually want them

[00:24:50] to treat themselves.

[00:24:52] So in a scenario like that, eventually when my child is upset

[00:24:55] or angry at when they're older, what do I want them to do?

[00:24:59] Do I want them to yell and scream and get angry and and get into

[00:25:02] fights with people?

[00:25:04] Or do I want them to model what I just showed them?

[00:25:08] Take a deep breath.

[00:25:10] Talk about what's just happened and tell a friend maybe what what

[00:25:13] they're struggling with and feel what I feel and then move forward.

[00:25:18] And so the type of parenting that I'm talking about, yes, our approaches

[00:25:21] are softer and there's no spanking or yelling at your kids.

[00:25:25] But in every interaction you're having with your child, you're actually

[00:25:28] teaching them what you want them to eventually do.

[00:25:31] And what so many of us as adults are trying to teach ourselves to do now.

[00:25:34] Right? Yeah.

[00:25:35] So many adults now we're going to therapy and we're trying

[00:25:38] to learn how to be mindful or take deep breaths.

[00:25:41] And we're just giving those skills to our kids younger.

[00:25:44] And they learn through repeated exposures to us being their calm,

[00:25:47] how to take on their own calm and eventually 30 years from now,

[00:25:51] not yelling, scream at a boss for not listening to them.

[00:25:56] Yeah, because that would not be good.

[00:25:57] Yes, exactly.

[00:25:58] And I think a lot of the skepticism that I hear is like, well, their boss

[00:26:02] is not going to validate their feelings, right?

[00:26:05] Or, you know, in the real world, things are harsh.

[00:26:09] I'm like, yeah, for sure.

[00:26:10] And so we want to give our kids tools to cope with the real

[00:26:13] world when they're young, like learning how to take a deep breath,

[00:26:17] learning how to communicate their feelings.

[00:26:19] I shared a post the other day saying I got my daughter who is

[00:26:22] having a meltdown, a glass of ice water.

[00:26:25] And I just gave it to her, sat at the table with her.

[00:26:28] And I hope that someday when she's having a meltdown as an

[00:26:31] adult and having a hard time, she'll just do the same thing.

[00:26:33] Get herself a glass of ice water and sit and talk to a friend.

[00:26:37] Does that help?

[00:26:37] Yeah.

[00:26:38] So you're essentially saying that the alternative is far worse

[00:26:45] than whatever claims these people would make about

[00:26:48] softness.

[00:26:49] Mm hmm.

[00:26:51] Yeah, I mean, the point that you made about, you know, hardening

[00:26:54] these young boys to the point where they grow up in being

[00:26:57] incapable of communicating and having conversations.

[00:27:01] It's true.

[00:27:02] I mean, there's no way to spin that.

[00:27:05] There's a lot of men out there that are struggling.

[00:27:08] Yeah.

[00:27:08] And what I'd say to anyone who thinks we do need to

[00:27:11] harden our boys or girls, I'm just saying boys because I

[00:27:14] know a lot of men listen to this podcast, but I'd ask

[00:27:18] them why, like what part of you feels uncomfortable with raising

[00:27:23] a child who maybe has a softness or maybe feels like it's

[00:27:26] okay to cry.

[00:27:28] And I would really challenge a father or any person who says

[00:27:34] that we are raising kids that are too soft to say what makes

[00:27:37] you uncomfortable with softness.

[00:27:40] Because I think it often goes down to again the reflection

[00:27:43] and asking yourself that question.

[00:27:45] Interesting.

[00:27:47] How do you deal with, well actually, before I jump to that,

[00:27:51] how do you then ensure that they still learn

[00:27:58] to deal with failure without just being like, whoa is me.

[00:28:01] The world is against me.

[00:28:02] I'm going to express my emotions, sure great, but then

[00:28:05] do nothing about it because I feel like I've gotten my outlet.

[00:28:09] But the challenges that you come up against your entire life,

[00:28:15] being able to actually build some level of, I don't know what

[00:28:19] the word is.

[00:28:20] Tolerance.

[00:28:20] Tolerance, thank you.

[00:28:21] Yeah.

[00:28:22] I think that's really important.

[00:28:23] And I do think that's a part of parenting in this way

[00:28:27] that I teach that is often missed.

[00:28:30] A really important thing is helping our children learn

[00:28:32] how to navigate disappointment.

[00:28:35] So for example, the other day I was in Niagara Falls

[00:28:38] with my kids and first off, whoa, over-stimulation

[00:28:42] nightmare.

[00:28:44] Never again.

[00:28:45] But anyway, we went to the water park and we had a day away

[00:28:50] and then at the end of the day away, we are going through

[00:28:53] the Hershey's chocolate store and like there's this huge

[00:28:56] sign for milkshakes.

[00:28:59] And I was not about to spend any more money.

[00:29:02] Just be honest.

[00:29:04] The yeah, it's the falls, right?

[00:29:06] And so we went into the Hershey's store with the

[00:29:08] goal of we had these coupons.

[00:29:10] We're going to get these two free chocolates and then

[00:29:12] we're going home.

[00:29:14] My four year old sees this milkshake and her brain is

[00:29:17] just now stuck on getting this milkshake.

[00:29:19] Right.

[00:29:20] And so in that scenario, I have two options.

[00:29:22] I can fear her tears and fear her meltdown and say, okay,

[00:29:26] honey, you're really sad about the milkshake.

[00:29:28] Okay, we'll buy it.

[00:29:29] Or I can teach her how to tolerate disappointment and

[00:29:32] to tolerate something that feels uncomfortable for her.

[00:29:35] So I say to her, no, we're not here to get a

[00:29:37] milkshake.

[00:29:38] I'm not going to buy the milkshake for you.

[00:29:41] And she gets really angry and starts crying and

[00:29:44] melting down, throws a tantrum on the floor.

[00:29:47] And I have a choice, right?

[00:29:49] And so in that scenario, I said to her, no, we're not

[00:29:53] buying the milkshake and it's okay for you to be

[00:29:57] upset about that.

[00:29:58] And this is how our kids learn to tolerate

[00:30:00] disappointment.

[00:30:01] And so as she's upset about it, I'm still, I'm

[00:30:03] narrating those feelings.

[00:30:05] I'm allowing the feelings, but I'm setting that

[00:30:07] boundary.

[00:30:07] No, we're not buying it.

[00:30:09] We move out of the store and she's still mad about

[00:30:11] it.

[00:30:11] And that's okay.

[00:30:12] And so I think that that's a piece that we really

[00:30:14] need to remember when we're talking about parenting

[00:30:17] without hard punishments, is that part of it is

[00:30:20] we need to model to our kids how to navigate

[00:30:22] being disappointed by something and we need

[00:30:24] to teach them that it's okay to be uncomfortable

[00:30:27] by being disappointed about something.

[00:30:29] And it doesn't mean that we get everything

[00:30:31] that we want.

[00:30:33] And I think in parenting, there's tons of

[00:30:35] opportunities to allow our kids to be

[00:30:36] disappointed and that's okay.

[00:30:38] I think in those scenarios, the parents

[00:30:43] almost probably feel the most amount of

[00:30:46] embarrassment.

[00:30:47] Like, oh my God, everybody's now looking at me

[00:30:49] with this child that's losing their mind,

[00:30:51] screaming and crying and kicking.

[00:30:53] I look like I don't know how to take care of

[00:30:54] my own child.

[00:30:55] That kind of common self internalized

[00:30:57] commentary going on.

[00:31:00] But then how do you stop?

[00:31:01] How do you teach the kid not to resort

[00:31:04] to that type of tantrum?

[00:31:06] Because you can have the conversation with them

[00:31:08] and eventually get them to a point where

[00:31:10] they understand it.

[00:31:11] But then they might be inclined again,

[00:31:13] like where's the motivation for the kid to

[00:31:15] not do that again?

[00:31:16] To not have a tantrum.

[00:31:17] To not have the tantrum.

[00:31:18] Yeah.

[00:31:19] Yeah.

[00:31:19] Could I just say I love this line of

[00:31:21] questioning.

[00:31:21] Like I love when someone's skeptical.

[00:31:24] My husband, he did not grow up the

[00:31:26] style of parenting at all.

[00:31:28] And the first like three years of

[00:31:30] parenting with just these questions over

[00:31:32] and over and over.

[00:31:32] So I love it.

[00:31:34] I love it.

[00:31:36] A few things that we need to know.

[00:31:37] First, the developing brain.

[00:31:40] So when I enter into that situation with

[00:31:42] my four year old who's also highly

[00:31:44] sensitive, what I know is when her

[00:31:46] brain gets stuck on something like

[00:31:47] that, like the milkshake, she actually

[00:31:49] does not have the ability to think

[00:31:51] logically, to control her impulses or

[00:31:53] be reasonable.

[00:31:54] Like that for me to expect that of

[00:31:57] her is unrealistic because her brain

[00:31:59] literally does not have that ability.

[00:32:01] So I think first off, we need to go

[00:32:02] in knowing that especially with our kids

[00:32:04] under five.

[00:32:06] So my job is if my child doesn't

[00:32:09] have the ability to think logically,

[00:32:10] can't control her impulses.

[00:32:12] I have to act as that for her.

[00:32:14] So in that situation, she's tired.

[00:32:16] It's been a long day.

[00:32:17] We've been at the water park.

[00:32:19] She also doesn't have a lot of

[00:32:20] resources to pull from to be calm.

[00:32:22] I just basically have to act as her

[00:32:24] logical brain for her.

[00:32:26] I have to pick her up off the floor.

[00:32:27] I have to take her out into the

[00:32:29] hallway and I just have to be OK

[00:32:31] with the fact that you know what?

[00:32:32] People are maybe going to look at

[00:32:34] me and maybe they're going to judge

[00:32:35] me and think I'm a soft parent.

[00:32:38] And I have to say, you know what?

[00:32:39] Those are your feelings.

[00:32:40] My job right now is to solely

[00:32:42] take care of my child.

[00:32:43] So I do a lot of that in my

[00:32:45] in my work is just imagining, OK,

[00:32:48] that's your feeling.

[00:32:48] I'm just going to give that back to

[00:32:49] you. It's not on me.

[00:32:51] If you don't like what I'm doing,

[00:32:52] then that's fine.

[00:32:54] So I think that's the first thing.

[00:32:56] Second thing is we know that it

[00:32:58] takes repeated exposures to

[00:32:59] a parent being calm for a child

[00:33:01] to learn how to take that calm on

[00:33:04] so my seven year old were in the

[00:33:06] store. She also wants a milkshake,

[00:33:08] but she has had repeated exposures

[00:33:10] to me being her calm the same way

[00:33:12] I navigated my four year old

[00:33:14] and she knows now how to take that

[00:33:15] on for herself.

[00:33:16] So she just says, I

[00:33:19] really want a milkshake.

[00:33:20] I wish I could have one and just

[00:33:22] moves on because she now

[00:33:24] has learned how to navigate

[00:33:26] disappointment.

[00:33:27] That's seven. That's actually pretty

[00:33:29] impressive that she can say that.

[00:33:30] Usually we'd say that.

[00:33:31] See that a little later.

[00:33:32] And I mean a lot of adults don't

[00:33:34] even know how to navigate disappointment.

[00:33:36] Oh, my seven year old is a wise.

[00:33:38] She's wiser than me. She's very wise.

[00:33:41] But she can handle disappointment

[00:33:42] and she can talk out how she feels.

[00:33:45] So to answer your question, like when

[00:33:46] can we expect them to take that on?

[00:33:48] We can expect them to be logical

[00:33:50] and reasonable.

[00:33:51] I guess the amount that we've also

[00:33:53] tried to act as that part of their

[00:33:55] brain for them.

[00:33:56] And then around five to seven we'll

[00:33:58] see that shift where they can start

[00:33:59] to not have those huge meltdowns

[00:34:01] in the store. But it does take a

[00:34:03] lot of time and it's not a quick fix.

[00:34:06] How do you deal with bullying?

[00:34:10] I saw a post the other

[00:34:12] day

[00:34:15] by someone who said bring bullying

[00:34:17] back because kids are too soft these

[00:34:19] days. And I thought that was a really

[00:34:21] stupid comment.

[00:34:22] But it also got me thinking

[00:34:26] you know, I've had times as a kid

[00:34:28] where I was bullied.

[00:34:29] I've witnessed bullying, never

[00:34:31] been the bully. I'm proud to be able to

[00:34:33] say that.

[00:34:36] And even to this day,

[00:34:38] I don't know if I know how to advise

[00:34:41] someone or if I had a kid how

[00:34:43] to help them navigate something like

[00:34:45] that because it's extremely traumatizing

[00:34:48] can really scar a kid and could really

[00:34:50] make for an unpleasant childhood

[00:34:52] experience, which then I'm confident

[00:34:55] in saying it'll follow them through

[00:34:57] the rest of their lives.

[00:34:58] Yeah. How do you how do you be

[00:35:00] there as a parent for your kid,

[00:35:01] especially when those parental

[00:35:03] instincts kick in? You're like, that's my

[00:35:05] kid that's being bullied.

[00:35:06] You want to go kick that other kids ass,

[00:35:08] which you shouldn't obviously like that

[00:35:10] those instincts come through.

[00:35:12] Yeah. Whenever I get asked a lot

[00:35:14] about bullying and I've dealt with a lot

[00:35:15] of children who were bullied

[00:35:18] and I always think back to this

[00:35:19] experience that I had as a child where

[00:35:21] there was someone in my life

[00:35:23] who was bullying me and who was not

[00:35:25] nice to me. And every time I saw her

[00:35:27] she was mean.

[00:35:28] But when I got to go home,

[00:35:30] my parents were there and they were

[00:35:32] safe.

[00:35:33] And so I had a relief

[00:35:35] from the bullying and I had a sense of

[00:35:37] being worthy and being lovable because

[00:35:39] I had a good relationship with my

[00:35:40] parents.

[00:35:41] And so the first thing I'd advise to

[00:35:43] parents is be that safe relationship

[00:35:45] for your kids.

[00:35:47] And if a child gets bullied at school

[00:35:49] or wherever they are and they come

[00:35:51] home and they know that they're

[00:35:52] loved, they can talk to their

[00:35:54] parents, that they are safe.

[00:35:55] That is a huge protective factor

[00:35:57] for our kids.

[00:35:59] With my own daughter, she was

[00:36:00] experiencing some bullying on the bus.

[00:36:02] She takes a bus to school and I just

[00:36:03] feel like the bus is the whole other

[00:36:05] world.

[00:36:07] Lots of things happen on the bus that

[00:36:08] we don't know.

[00:36:10] But when she was bullied the first

[00:36:12] day she came home and she told us

[00:36:14] right away.

[00:36:15] And the reason that she felt

[00:36:16] comfortable telling us is because

[00:36:17] she knows what it feels like to be

[00:36:19] in a safe relationship.

[00:36:20] So she was telling us like I can't

[00:36:22] believe she said this to me.

[00:36:23] How could someone say that?

[00:36:24] That's so awful.

[00:36:25] It's so terrible that she could

[00:36:26] say that to me.

[00:36:27] It was like good, good that you know

[00:36:29] that that's terrible because that

[00:36:30] means that when you're home and you're

[00:36:31] with us you've now learned what it's

[00:36:33] like to be safe.

[00:36:34] OK. So I think the first thing we

[00:36:35] can do as parents is try and not

[00:36:37] be our child's bully and try and be

[00:36:39] safe to them.

[00:36:40] And then I think we want to really

[00:36:41] give them the confidence and

[00:36:44] ability to stand up for themselves,

[00:36:46] to stand up for others and also

[00:36:48] know that it's OK to sometimes you

[00:36:50] have to interject.

[00:36:51] Like there was a time when the

[00:36:52] bullying on the bus was getting

[00:36:53] pretty bad and I had to call the

[00:36:54] principal and be like look this is

[00:36:56] what's happening.

[00:36:57] It's not OK.

[00:36:59] And how can we make sure this

[00:37:00] doesn't keep happening?

[00:37:01] And I think it's OK for parents to

[00:37:03] know that they're their child's best

[00:37:04] advocate and they can stand up for

[00:37:06] them too.

[00:37:07] What happens if that safety

[00:37:12] is never a thing for a child

[00:37:14] that coming home, that

[00:37:17] safety blanket knowing that your

[00:37:18] parents are there for you.

[00:37:20] And you know it could be because

[00:37:22] of intentional neglect or

[00:37:25] unintentional.

[00:37:26] Right? It can go both ways.

[00:37:27] But how does that affect a child

[00:37:29] growing up into their teens and

[00:37:31] into adulthood?

[00:37:33] Yeah, it can affect children in

[00:37:34] many different ways.

[00:37:35] I think when we when we're home,

[00:37:37] we have the message that home is

[00:37:39] not safe.

[00:37:40] We're learning the message that

[00:37:41] the world is not safe.

[00:37:43] We're learning the message that

[00:37:44] when I'm in the world, I can't

[00:37:46] rely on other people and I don't

[00:37:48] have the ability to trust.

[00:37:50] So I think it can really come

[00:37:51] in issues with trust.

[00:37:53] It can come in issues with warming

[00:37:55] relationships with people who are

[00:37:57] not safe.

[00:37:58] So we learn how to be in relationship

[00:38:00] with other people in our lives

[00:38:01] through the relationship that we have

[00:38:03] with our parents or trusted

[00:38:05] caregivers if your parents aren't

[00:38:06] there.

[00:38:07] So a child who grows up with

[00:38:09] a really toxic relationship with

[00:38:10] their parents, they don't have the

[00:38:12] ability to communicate how they feel

[00:38:13] with their parents. They don't have

[00:38:15] that safety.

[00:38:16] As they get older, they don't know

[00:38:18] now how to have that safety and

[00:38:20] healthy relationships with other people

[00:38:21] in their life.

[00:38:22] So we might see that child be the

[00:38:24] one to have really toxic friendships

[00:38:26] with people. We might see that child

[00:38:28] as the one who's bullying

[00:38:30] because they have not learned the

[00:38:31] skills to be in relationship.

[00:38:33] And that's why relationship in those

[00:38:35] early years is the most important

[00:38:36] thing that we can have.

[00:38:38] And I know a lot of adults now

[00:38:39] that we work with at our practice

[00:38:41] they're learning how to be in

[00:38:42] relationship for the first time,

[00:38:44] right? We're learning how to

[00:38:45] communicate, how to speak

[00:38:47] at what we feel because we didn't

[00:38:48] have the ability to do that as

[00:38:49] kids.

[00:38:51] So it can come out in a lot of ways.

[00:38:52] It can come out in toxic friendships,

[00:38:54] difficult real time relationships.

[00:38:56] It can come out in a lack of trust

[00:38:58] for the world and trying to be

[00:38:59] really independent when really we

[00:39:01] all need togetherness like we need

[00:39:02] community.

[00:39:03] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:39:04] Yeah, that answers your question.

[00:39:06] Yeah, I'm just curious now

[00:39:09] if you're a

[00:39:11] product of that kind of environment

[00:39:13] and you're an adult now and you

[00:39:15] have enough self-awareness to know

[00:39:16] that these things had affected

[00:39:18] you growing up and now you find

[00:39:19] yourself in a position where you

[00:39:21] are a parent.

[00:39:22] How do you not

[00:39:25] pass that along?

[00:39:26] How do you break that cycle?

[00:39:28] Because I think there's a lot of

[00:39:29] people out there who

[00:39:31] constantly say, you know,

[00:39:33] when I have a kid, these are the

[00:39:35] things I'm not going to do that

[00:39:37] my parents did or these are the

[00:39:38] things I'm going to do that my

[00:39:40] parents did.

[00:39:42] And then somehow

[00:39:44] in there seeps in the

[00:39:46] negatives that also came with

[00:39:48] it. How do you

[00:39:49] if you're a parent listening to this

[00:39:51] and you're watching this and thinking

[00:39:52] that what advice would you share with

[00:39:54] them? Yeah, there's

[00:39:56] something that we talk about often

[00:39:58] and it's the process of

[00:39:59] re-parenting.

[00:40:01] So I don't know have you heard of

[00:40:02] that. Okay.

[00:40:03] Oh, it's exciting.

[00:40:06] One of my favorite things to talk

[00:40:07] about it's the process

[00:40:09] of imagining yourself as

[00:40:11] a younger child

[00:40:12] and what did you need when you

[00:40:14] were a child and now you are

[00:40:16] giving yourself what you needed

[00:40:18] when you were a kid.

[00:40:19] So for example, if when you were a

[00:40:21] kid, I'll give you an example.

[00:40:23] So my husband, as I mentioned,

[00:40:25] he grew up in a very abusive

[00:40:27] household.

[00:40:29] So when he was a kid, there were

[00:40:30] things that he didn't have like he

[00:40:31] didn't have the time to play

[00:40:33] because he was taking care of his

[00:40:33] siblings.

[00:40:34] So part of his re-parenting

[00:40:36] journey, which is giving himself

[00:40:37] now his adult self, what

[00:40:39] he needed when he was a kid

[00:40:41] was to is to learn how to play

[00:40:43] again.

[00:40:44] He never had that as a kid.

[00:40:45] So OK, how are you a person in

[00:40:47] your 30s going to learn how to

[00:40:48] play for the first time in your

[00:40:49] life? Right.

[00:40:51] Then for him, it's thinking, OK,

[00:40:53] so what are those things that I

[00:40:54] did enjoy when I was a kid?

[00:40:55] Maybe I didn't have a lot of time

[00:40:57] to play, but what did I enjoy?

[00:40:58] OK, one of the things he enjoyed

[00:41:00] was playing Mario Kart with his

[00:41:01] cousins.

[00:41:02] OK, so how can we lean into

[00:41:04] that and find

[00:41:05] a piece of play for yourself

[00:41:07] now? So now he refurbishes

[00:41:09] old video games and

[00:41:12] that's so cool. He collects

[00:41:13] them and we have this whole

[00:41:14] shelf in our house full of

[00:41:16] old video games that he

[00:41:17] refurbishes and and

[00:41:18] we'll have friends over with their

[00:41:20] kids and we'll play it together.

[00:41:21] And there's a piece of that that's

[00:41:22] healing.

[00:41:24] Reparenting is also giving

[00:41:27] yourself time to

[00:41:29] reflect on those triggers.

[00:41:30] So when your kids are yelling at

[00:41:31] you and you just want to yell

[00:41:32] back at them, it's asking

[00:41:34] yourself, OK, well, what part of

[00:41:36] me wants to yell back at my kids?

[00:41:38] Why do I want to yell?

[00:41:39] And that's imagining, OK, when

[00:41:40] I was a kid and I yelled at my

[00:41:42] parents, my dad would yell back

[00:41:44] at me.

[00:41:45] My dad would I'm not saying my

[00:41:46] dad, but in general like my dad

[00:41:48] would yell.

[00:41:49] So when my kid yells at me, I

[00:41:50] immediately am triggered back to

[00:41:52] that memory.

[00:41:53] And I think, huh, this kid

[00:41:55] yelling, that's bad.

[00:41:56] I have to yell back at them.

[00:41:58] So reparenting is the process

[00:42:00] of reflecting on that little

[00:42:02] version of yourself, what they

[00:42:03] needed and trying to give it

[00:42:05] to them now yourself.

[00:42:06] And it can be really healing.

[00:42:08] How do you if I'm

[00:42:10] going to actually use you and

[00:42:11] your husband as an example?

[00:42:12] Please. Yeah.

[00:42:13] You talked about how he grew up

[00:42:14] in a very different environment

[00:42:16] and some of that comes through

[00:42:18] as he became a parent.

[00:42:20] Yeah. Versus your reality

[00:42:21] as a child and how you parent

[00:42:24] when you've got a couple

[00:42:26] with two very distinctively

[00:42:27] different parenting styles,

[00:42:29] how do you broker something in

[00:42:31] the middle for the sake of the

[00:42:32] kids?

[00:42:33] Right.

[00:42:34] Yeah, that's a really good question.

[00:42:36] And I think so many couples

[00:42:38] struggle with that.

[00:42:40] I think for us, maybe

[00:42:42] it's a little bit different because

[00:42:43] I'm a therapist who specializes

[00:42:45] in working with kids, right?

[00:42:46] So I think when we first

[00:42:48] have an unfair advantage,

[00:42:49] I have an unfair advantage.

[00:42:52] And my husband

[00:42:55] when we became parents,

[00:42:57] he knew he did not want to pass

[00:42:59] on his traumas to his kids.

[00:43:01] He knew that.

[00:43:02] But what he didn't know was how

[00:43:03] triggering for those old wounds

[00:43:05] becoming a parent would be

[00:43:07] because a lot of his childhood,

[00:43:09] he hadn't really processed yet.

[00:43:10] And then all of a sudden you have

[00:43:11] this beautiful baby sitting in

[00:43:13] front of you.

[00:43:14] You're like, how could someone

[00:43:15] hurt a child this way?

[00:43:17] Right. And that's really upsetting

[00:43:19] and hard.

[00:43:21] And I think for him, like we had

[00:43:22] talked about underneath anger is

[00:43:24] sadness.

[00:43:25] And so I think for him in those

[00:43:27] early years of parenting was

[00:43:29] finding that sadness for the first

[00:43:30] time. And that was difficult for

[00:43:32] him.

[00:43:33] But also quite a powerful

[00:43:35] quite a powerful journey.

[00:43:37] And we did therapy together

[00:43:39] and that really helped.

[00:43:40] Of course, I'm biased against

[00:43:41] therapy because I'm a therapist.

[00:43:45] And then I think in that work

[00:43:46] of reflecting on, well, why am I

[00:43:48] so triggered because of all these

[00:43:50] things that have happened to me?

[00:43:52] He was able to realize how

[00:43:54] he wanted to do things different.

[00:43:56] And for him, like when he learned

[00:43:57] things like the brain science

[00:44:00] for toddlers and that they aren't

[00:44:01] bad, they just don't have the

[00:44:02] ability to control their impulses.

[00:44:04] He's also one to get very

[00:44:05] passionate.

[00:44:06] And then he's like, I need to

[00:44:07] tell everyone I know

[00:44:09] you know, like, how did I not

[00:44:10] know this?

[00:44:11] And he would stand up for

[00:44:12] toddlers and be if he

[00:44:13] heard someone talking about it.

[00:44:15] They just don't know.

[00:44:15] They just don't have impulse

[00:44:16] control yet.

[00:44:18] So I think for him, it actually

[00:44:19] made him really passionate about

[00:44:21] parenting in this type of way.

[00:44:22] He actually runs Nurtured First

[00:44:23] with me now, left

[00:44:25] his engineering career to do

[00:44:27] this.

[00:44:27] So yeah, interesting

[00:44:29] story. So I think for him, I

[00:44:31] always had he

[00:44:33] even though he grew up in a

[00:44:33] very different way, he had a

[00:44:35] passion for wanting to do things

[00:44:36] different. So we very much

[00:44:38] became aligned even though it

[00:44:39] was hard in the early years.

[00:44:41] You mentioned something

[00:44:43] along the lines of nature versus

[00:44:45] nurture.

[00:44:46] How does what?

[00:44:47] Where where are we with that

[00:44:49] debate? And that's even a debate?

[00:44:51] Yeah, I love that question.

[00:44:53] OK, well, there's a few things.

[00:44:55] There is a part of nature.

[00:44:57] So some children, children

[00:44:59] are born with different temperaments.

[00:45:01] I have a child who was born

[00:45:02] with a more slow to warm,

[00:45:04] sensitive temperament.

[00:45:05] She feels the world very deeply.

[00:45:07] She takes on others emotions,

[00:45:09] lights, sounds

[00:45:10] that can all become a lot for

[00:45:12] her.

[00:45:13] I have two other daughters who are

[00:45:14] born with a mild temperament.

[00:45:16] That means that they're just

[00:45:17] naturally more easy going from

[00:45:18] birth.

[00:45:19] So there is temperament and kids

[00:45:21] are born with different

[00:45:21] temperaments. And we can see

[00:45:23] that like parents will always

[00:45:24] say, I have multiple kids and

[00:45:26] they're so different.

[00:45:27] That's because we're born with

[00:45:27] different temperaments.

[00:45:29] But then there is the nurture

[00:45:30] piece. And that's a big piece

[00:45:32] of parenting is does

[00:45:34] your child learn at an early

[00:45:36] age that they're safe with you

[00:45:37] that they can fall back on

[00:45:39] your relationship?

[00:45:40] As if they learn that at an early

[00:45:42] age, they are going to do so

[00:45:44] much better throughout their life

[00:45:46] because they are secure and

[00:45:48] they're safe at home.

[00:45:50] So they can tolerate

[00:45:51] disappointment in the world.

[00:45:52] They can tolerate a bully at

[00:45:53] school. They can tolerate not

[00:45:54] doing well on a test because

[00:45:56] they have that relationship to

[00:45:57] fall back on.

[00:45:59] So both are true.

[00:46:00] There is an element of nature

[00:46:02] and there's a very big element

[00:46:04] of nurture.

[00:46:05] So I think we do have to look

[00:46:06] at both.

[00:46:08] So in that scenario,

[00:46:10] as you were talking, I was

[00:46:11] immediately thinking of, you

[00:46:13] know, the unpleasant

[00:46:17] folk in society who've

[00:46:18] committed heinous crimes,

[00:46:21] let's say.

[00:46:24] Is it?

[00:46:25] Is it a cop out to say that it

[00:46:27] was part of their nurturing

[00:46:30] or can people just

[00:46:33] is there temperament? Can

[00:46:34] people's temperament just be

[00:46:35] that off to the spectrum,

[00:46:37] to that side of the spectrum?

[00:46:39] I think if you look at anyone

[00:46:40] who has committed

[00:46:42] terrible crimes or who have

[00:46:44] really struggled to be kind to

[00:46:46] others throughout their life,

[00:46:47] you can almost always go back

[00:46:49] to their childhood and see that

[00:46:50] there was some sort of maybe

[00:46:52] attachment issue or some sort

[00:46:53] of trauma that happened to them

[00:46:55] that they were hurt in their

[00:46:57] childhoods. And I think that

[00:46:59] there's research to be able

[00:47:00] to back that up as well.

[00:47:01] That people who, yeah, like

[00:47:04] people who are addicted or

[00:47:05] who are in jail and I worked

[00:47:07] with a lot of those kids.

[00:47:08] I worked with kids who are on

[00:47:09] the street and, you know,

[00:47:11] needed to go to jail at a very,

[00:47:12] very young age.

[00:47:13] And every single one of them

[00:47:15] had complex trauma in their

[00:47:17] childhood.

[00:47:18] And it started really early and

[00:47:19] they learned that the world is

[00:47:20] not safe. I have to take care

[00:47:22] of myself.

[00:47:23] I have to do so by any means

[00:47:24] necessary.

[00:47:25] And, you know, I actually

[00:47:27] have to put my defenses up so

[00:47:28] high that I cannot love

[00:47:30] anyone or be kind to anyone

[00:47:32] because that could be more

[00:47:33] painful to me.

[00:47:34] Can you break through that?

[00:47:36] As a therapist?

[00:47:37] Yeah.

[00:47:39] Yes, I think that you can.

[00:47:41] I do think that there's hope for

[00:47:43] anyone.

[00:47:44] I think the more you've been

[00:47:46] through and the less safety

[00:47:48] that you've felt as a child, it

[00:47:49] takes more time.

[00:47:51] But even if I think about my

[00:47:52] husband and I know I brought

[00:47:53] him up a few times, but when

[00:47:55] we're talking about

[00:47:56] re-barrencing, I was right

[00:47:57] beside him through every part

[00:47:58] of that story and

[00:48:00] to go from a child who,

[00:48:02] yeah, who doesn't have that

[00:48:03] relationship with his mother

[00:48:05] and who has been through

[00:48:08] a lot of trauma that he went

[00:48:09] through, lost his grandfather

[00:48:11] to suicide while he was there

[00:48:13] at the house.

[00:48:14] Like a lot of really complex

[00:48:16] trauma to come out the other

[00:48:17] side and have a loving, very

[00:48:20] secure attachment with your

[00:48:21] three kids.

[00:48:22] Like I think that's a story of

[00:48:24] it can be done and

[00:48:26] it was hard work.

[00:48:27] Every day he had to think

[00:48:28] about why am I so triggered?

[00:48:30] What's going on?

[00:48:32] How can I repeat this

[00:48:33] and how can I repair and

[00:48:35] connect with my children?

[00:48:36] How do I form a relationship

[00:48:38] with my children?

[00:48:39] So it was something that he

[00:48:40] had to think about every

[00:48:41] single day and it was hard

[00:48:43] work, but I do think it can

[00:48:44] be done.

[00:48:45] You talked about

[00:48:48] and I'm very sorry to hear

[00:48:49] that about him witnessing

[00:48:50] his grandfather that way.

[00:48:52] But now I feel like I need

[00:48:53] to ask you about suicide in

[00:48:54] general and anyone listening,

[00:48:56] watching, I highly encourage

[00:48:58] you seek out any kind of

[00:48:59] support for that.

[00:49:01] But is there,

[00:49:05] I had recently come across,

[00:49:08] if it was a news posting,

[00:49:09] a report, something that talked

[00:49:11] about a rise in suicide amongst

[00:49:13] teens and young adults.

[00:49:16] What's happening there?

[00:49:18] Why is there such a big

[00:49:20] shift in that direction?

[00:49:21] Like those are scary numbers

[00:49:23] that we're starting to see.

[00:49:25] Yeah, I think we're having a

[00:49:26] real mental health crisis for

[00:49:27] our teens and youth right now.

[00:49:29] I think there's a lot of factors.

[00:49:32] I think we had teens and youth

[00:49:34] go through a pandemic and

[00:49:36] not be together.

[00:49:38] And if we look at one of the

[00:49:40] core needs that we all have as

[00:49:41] humans is togetherness

[00:49:43] and closeness and feeling

[00:49:44] relationship and connection.

[00:49:46] And for our teens, they went

[00:49:48] through let's say three years

[00:49:49] of a pandemic where they

[00:49:50] couldn't have that closeness.

[00:49:52] And for a lot of the teens,

[00:49:53] if we go back to what's most

[00:49:55] important for a child is that

[00:49:56] secure relationship with their

[00:49:57] parents, not only to the

[00:49:59] not get that closeness with

[00:50:00] maybe peers or teachers or other

[00:50:02] people, but a lot of them were

[00:50:04] home with parents who were not

[00:50:05] safe to them and who didn't

[00:50:07] parents who were stressed

[00:50:09] and trying to work from home

[00:50:10] and navigate

[00:50:12] and navigate their children.

[00:50:13] So I think that's one big piece

[00:50:16] is a lot of children

[00:50:18] and teens were home

[00:50:20] and they maybe didn't have

[00:50:21] that safe home environment

[00:50:22] and they didn't have those

[00:50:23] outlets of those other safe

[00:50:24] people in their life.

[00:50:26] And that's really difficult.

[00:50:28] I think if we push it even

[00:50:29] further, we look at social

[00:50:31] media and we look at

[00:50:33] this false sense of closeness

[00:50:35] that they're getting.

[00:50:36] So you know, you can scroll

[00:50:37] TikTok for hours, but you

[00:50:39] don't leave TikTok the same

[00:50:40] way you leave a coffee date

[00:50:42] with a friend who

[00:50:44] bears their soul to you and

[00:50:45] you can actually have that

[00:50:46] connection.

[00:50:47] So I think teens right now

[00:50:48] and even young adults in

[00:50:49] general, we have a lot of

[00:50:51] access to social media.

[00:50:53] It gives us a false sense

[00:50:54] of, oh, I've seen people

[00:50:56] but we're not actually ever

[00:50:57] getting that closeness that we

[00:50:59] need.

[00:51:00] And so we're walking through

[00:51:01] life feeling more alone than

[00:51:02] ever.

[00:51:03] And I think when we feel alone

[00:51:04] we don't have that connection,

[00:51:05] we don't have that community,

[00:51:06] we don't have that relationship.

[00:51:08] It leaves us with mental

[00:51:10] health issues and struggles

[00:51:11] and I get the sense that

[00:51:13] that's happening a lot to

[00:51:15] the teens today.

[00:51:17] How do we help?

[00:51:19] How do we, how do we,

[00:51:20] I don't even know what can

[00:51:21] you reverse the course on this?

[00:51:23] Can you like shift this

[00:51:26] spike and curve it a little

[00:51:28] bit?

[00:51:29] Like what, what could we do?

[00:51:32] I think something that we can

[00:51:33] do that's really underrated

[00:51:34] and but very, very powerful

[00:51:37] is relationship.

[00:51:39] So if you have a teen in your

[00:51:40] life or a child in your life

[00:51:41] who's struggling, the number

[00:51:43] one thing we can do is build

[00:51:44] a relationship.

[00:51:46] And there is research on that

[00:51:47] for kids who grew up in

[00:51:48] traumatic homes or teens.

[00:51:51] One solid relationship is a

[00:51:52] huge protective factor

[00:51:54] or the rest of their lives.

[00:51:56] And you talk to children who

[00:51:57] have been through some of the

[00:51:58] most traumatic stuff.

[00:52:00] Like for example, my husband

[00:52:02] but he had like a few solid

[00:52:04] relationships with adults in

[00:52:05] his life and I think that

[00:52:07] that was the saving grace.

[00:52:09] And so I think if you see a

[00:52:10] teen who's struggling, how can

[00:52:11] you form a relationship with

[00:52:12] them?

[00:52:14] Can you take them out for

[00:52:15] coffee?

[00:52:16] Can you play a game that they

[00:52:17] enjoy with them?

[00:52:18] Like if they're stuck gaming

[00:52:19] all the time, like can you

[00:52:20] just sit next to them, get

[00:52:21] to know the game and play

[00:52:22] with them?

[00:52:23] If we can form a relationship,

[00:52:25] we can really change lives

[00:52:26] that way.

[00:52:27] And then of course on top of

[00:52:28] that making sure that they

[00:52:29] get the professional support

[00:52:30] that they need.

[00:52:31] Yeah, that's the other thing.

[00:52:32] I think there's still a bit

[00:52:33] of a stigma and a taboo

[00:52:34] around seeking out

[00:52:35] professional help.

[00:52:37] I mean I remember a time

[00:52:38] when I used to think the

[00:52:39] only people that went to

[00:52:40] therapy were crazy people.

[00:52:42] Where do you think that

[00:52:43] message came from?

[00:52:47] Friends, family, culture.

[00:52:50] A lot of it from society.

[00:52:52] I mean as a guy growing up,

[00:52:54] you're already told like you

[00:52:55] said, don't express the emotions.

[00:52:57] Let alone go and talk to a

[00:52:59] therapist who's going to sit

[00:53:01] there and poke and prod at you

[00:53:03] and everyone else is going to

[00:53:04] be like, oh that's Samir

[00:53:05] he goes and he talks to a

[00:53:06] therapist.

[00:53:07] Yeah, exactly.

[00:53:08] So I can only imagine

[00:53:10] still what people feel

[00:53:12] and go through in that

[00:53:13] regard.

[00:53:14] And as you were talking about

[00:53:15] the pandemic it had me

[00:53:16] thinking about another

[00:53:19] report I'd seen about kids

[00:53:21] who had to mask for so long

[00:53:24] that they were afraid to take

[00:53:25] it off because they didn't

[00:53:26] know how to interact seeing

[00:53:27] people's faces and

[00:53:28] reactions.

[00:53:29] They didn't know how to process

[00:53:30] the emotions and I'm just

[00:53:31] wondering your thoughts on

[00:53:34] how we help kids in the

[00:53:39] post-pandemic world.

[00:53:40] The ones who spent maybe

[00:53:43] what would have been the

[00:53:44] first two, three years of

[00:53:45] their schooling indoors

[00:53:47] locked away.

[00:53:48] Yeah.

[00:53:49] Virtual, masked, etc.

[00:53:52] And then the teens that you

[00:53:54] talked about not having that

[00:53:55] connection anymore how do we

[00:53:57] or what kind of impact is that

[00:53:59] going to leave if we leave it

[00:54:00] untreated?

[00:54:01] Yeah, I think that's a really

[00:54:05] good question.

[00:54:06] It goes back again to

[00:54:07] relationship like you said.

[00:54:08] You were saying those kids

[00:54:09] didn't have chances to build

[00:54:10] that relationship right?

[00:54:11] So whether that

[00:54:12] relationship was with their

[00:54:13] teacher, their peers, I think

[00:54:14] they were just like

[00:54:15] they were just like

[00:54:16] they were just like

[00:54:17] they were just like

[00:54:19] they were just like

[00:54:21] they were just like

[00:54:22] they were just like

[00:54:23] like a child as a child

[00:54:24] and that was what we

[00:54:25] really wanted to do you know

[00:54:26] know the Surgeoned

[00:54:27] group and our

[00:54:29] parents and their

[00:54:30] there peers.

[00:54:31] I think the kids that are

[00:54:32] gonna do best are the kids

[00:54:33] that when they were home

[00:54:34] with their parents they

[00:54:35] were able to build

[00:54:36] that solid relationship

[00:54:37] even if it was

[00:54:38] imperfect I mean I was

[00:54:39] a parent in the

[00:54:40] I had a baby in the

[00:54:41] I had two babies in the

[00:54:42] pandemic and my oldest

[00:54:43] miss out on her first

[00:54:44] year and a half of

[00:54:45] school so I can

[00:54:46] but I came back and repaired.

[00:54:48] And I think that's one of the most important things

[00:54:49] we can do as a parent.

[00:54:51] But I think if we look at the kids

[00:54:52] who have gone through that,

[00:54:55] I think the ones who can still fall back

[00:54:57] on that relationship with their parent,

[00:54:59] those are probably the kids that are going to be able

[00:55:01] to do the best and get back into society.

[00:55:05] And I think that's what we can do as parents.

[00:55:07] So if you see your kid really struggling,

[00:55:10] if they're struggling so much and you see them,

[00:55:12] they're using, let's say gaming as a way to cope.

[00:55:16] How can you join the world?

[00:55:17] How can you try and understand,

[00:55:19] okay, well what is it about gaming that you like?

[00:55:21] Is it the fact that you're talking to your friends online?

[00:55:24] Is it the fact that you can kind of zone out

[00:55:26] and game for a little while?

[00:55:28] Like what is it about that that you like?

[00:55:31] If your child's struggling,

[00:55:31] maybe it's setting up a weekly coffee date

[00:55:34] where you just get to know them

[00:55:35] and you just ask them how school's going.

[00:55:37] Things like that will be the way

[00:55:39] that we can best support our child.

[00:55:41] And through that relationship with us,

[00:55:43] they learn those social skills

[00:55:45] so that they feel more confident going out with their friends.

[00:55:48] Amazing, one final question.

[00:55:49] Okay.

[00:55:51] What advice would you give to brand new parents?

[00:55:55] Either they just had their kid or their kids on the way.

[00:55:58] What advice would you give them?

[00:56:00] Oh, I'd give them the advice

[00:56:01] of give yourself so much compassion.

[00:56:04] I remember when I first became a mom,

[00:56:06] like again, like I told you,

[00:56:08] I was already a child therapist.

[00:56:09] I had worked with kids with complex behavior.

[00:56:11] Like I've got this.

[00:56:12] This is gonna be easy.

[00:56:13] This is gonna be good for me.

[00:56:14] Like finally I can put all my tools into practice.

[00:56:18] And it was still really, really hard,

[00:56:20] like alarmingly hard.

[00:56:21] I struggled with postpartum anxiety and depression

[00:56:24] and my husband was going through all this trauma

[00:56:27] from his past and the both of us were like,

[00:56:28] oh my goodness, this is not what we expected.

[00:56:31] And the one thing that really got me through

[00:56:33] was the ability to be self-compassionate

[00:56:35] and say, okay, this feels hard because it is hard

[00:56:38] and that's okay.

[00:56:39] It's not always gonna be this hard

[00:56:41] and giving myself that compassion

[00:56:42] and grace for repairing with my child

[00:56:44] when I did lose my cool or things were tough.

[00:56:47] I think that really helped get us through

[00:56:49] and get us to a point where it didn't feel

[00:56:50] quite so hard every single day.

[00:56:53] Amazing.

[00:56:53] Jess, thank you so much.

[00:56:55] Thank you so much for having me.

[00:56:56] I learned a ton.

[00:56:57] Good, good.

[00:56:58] And we have to do a part too.

[00:56:59] Yes, I would love that.

[00:57:00] This is incredible.

[00:57:02] Where can people find you?

[00:57:03] You can find me on atnurturdfirst on Instagram.

[00:57:07] That's where I spend most of my days

[00:57:10] hanging out, doing stories, doing posts,

[00:57:12] talking about all of this stuff.

[00:57:14] So please come find me there.

[00:57:15] You can also find us on our website,

[00:57:17] nurturdfirst.com.

[00:57:18] We have an amazing blog that's just filled with tips

[00:57:22] and tools and deeper reflections

[00:57:24] to help you understand parenting more

[00:57:25] so you can find us there as well.

[00:57:27] Amazing.

[00:57:28] Thank you so much.

[00:57:29] This was helpful.

[00:57:30] I hope this was helpful to you listening, watching

[00:57:33] and make sure to check Jess out.

[00:57:35] She's incredibly talented,

[00:57:38] insightful and I've learned a ton.

[00:57:40] So thank you so much.

[00:57:41] Of course, thank you so much for having me.

[00:57:43] Of course, thank you so much everybody.