We're Losing Men: A Special MOVEMBER Episode | Ep.123 - Gent's Talk

[00:00:13] My name is Todd Minerson, I am the Country Director for Movember here in Canada and I won't lie to you like I got a little tingle right now seeing all of you here like this is pretty exciting stuff for our team of mustache farmers and folks who are passionate passionate about men's health and to see all of you here today as we kind of get into the hairy season is something that is super super exciting for us so our gratitude for all of you for being here and

[00:00:42] we're gonna have an amazing conversation today with Samir and her incredible panelists the next 12 months for Movember in Canada are going to be probably the most momentous 12 months that we've had in almost 20 years that we've been around in Canada when it came to our 20th birthday in Australia last year our board said it's not going to be a birthday cake and balloon kind of thing dude it's going to be a challenge to you about what the next 20 years of men's health has in store and how we're going to be a little bit different

[00:01:12] and how we can have the biggest impact and it's a simple question how do we help men live longer healthier happier lives

[00:01:19] it's simple but it's complicated it's very complicated you know the work that we had done before that around prostate cancer around mental health and suicide prevention and around testicular cancer was critically important and in our next 20 years we're going to double down on that but it's also not enough right we know it's not enough we know there are things that are

[00:01:42] preventing men from living longer lives that we can address and it means for us at Movember we have to get beyond just the you know fun part and asking guys to go to the doctor or do this and that but we also have to start thinking about systems change and advocacy and policy work we have to think about how do we create systems that are responsive to men probably the most tragic statistics that I have the statistic that I have to work with in in this job is knowing that you know

[00:02:11] we all know we all know the suicide rates for men are higher than the rest of the population what we don't know and we have this myth that men don't seek help right what we don't acknowledge in that is that almost two-thirds of men who complete a suicide tried to get help the year before so something is not working for these guys right and we need to address that in this next 12 months we are going to be tackling advocacy and policy work we are going to be looking at how we

[00:02:41] transform harmful ideas of masculinity into healthy ones and that's going to be a lot of the conversation today we are going to be looking at how we help improve men's health literacy so we take care of our own I was going to say shit I said it anyways

[00:02:55] oh damn inner voice oh no here we go again so we take care of our own stuff and we actually are an agent of change in our own lives right these are all new areas of work for us in Movember but they're absolutely critical

[00:03:09] to what we're trying to do there's some very very exciting stuff happening including in June of 2025 we will be releasing the first deep dive into men's health here in Canada called the real face of men's health report and we've just released it in UK and Australia over the summer and it's now become a foundational piece for working with people about how to get better outcomes for men and their health so very excited for that next June

[00:03:34] but we can't have a talk today about the future of masculinity without also walking the walk so I'm going to get a little bit raw and honest here and tell you why as much as we're knitting crocheting and eating wings and having you know karaoke nights and doing all the fun stuff this work is urgent okay I have a friend who passed away on September 26th 14 days after he was diagnosed with kidney cancer he was gone

[00:04:05] now I'm not a doctor I've never even played on TV but I know this he did not have cancer for 14 days he had cancer for a long time before that and there have been a lot of sleepless nights trying to figure out why he waited so long for his wife to call me and his other friends to go to the doctor and my friend Neil is a guy I've known for 35 years I love him

[00:04:33] he's an artist a creator he's a proud Rastafari man he is a husband a friend and a dad of three little girls what prevented him from getting help before it got to this conclusion it's complicated it's not that easy question that I asked at the beginning and for Neil I think it was fear

[00:05:02] it was racist experiences in the medical system it was a lifetime of micro and macro aggressions against the black man in this world it was ideas of masculinity and fear of not being able to like take care and provide for his family and at the end it was probably mostly fear and the fact that we're going to address all of those things now in our world

[00:05:31] and the fact that we're going to be able to be able to do this is something that we're going to be able to do so I'm going to be able to do this for the next year

[00:05:41] so I'm doing it for Neil this year and it's taken on a new meaning for me even though it's my job but I hope that the kind of conversations that we're going to have today are going to take us on a path of getting better outcomes for guys like Neil and I'm not the only one who has a

[00:06:01] personal connection to this work I know probably almost everybody here can draw on that I'd love to bring Samir up now and introduce him so we can have the panel start we are so proud come on don't be shy

[00:06:14] the last thing this guy is shy

[00:06:19] we're incredibly proud to be partnering with the gents podcast this year we met some of the team as well it's really an honor and we're very excited to have this conversation we're grateful for you leading it and I hand over there

[00:06:31] amazing

[00:06:32] can we have a hug?

[00:06:33] yeah

[00:06:33] all right

[00:06:39] we on?

[00:06:41] can everybody hear me clearly?

[00:06:42] perfect

[00:06:43] one more round of applause just for the jacket

[00:06:51] thank you all for coming today this is an important important oh there's a puppy

[00:06:56] this is a very important conversation obviously to Todd's point there's a lot that's happening in the world of masculinity and what it means to be a man in today's world

[00:07:07] it's constantly shifting the goalposts are constantly moving you wake up one day and you think to be a man you have to be strong and confident and silent show aggression dominance force

[00:07:20] can't explore your emotions can't show your emotions because that would run in contradiction to your masculinity until you come across a life moment that really sort of just kicks you where it hurts

[00:07:34] and suddenly you have no choice but to face the demons that are residing inside you

[00:07:39] oftentimes when that happens that's where we end up seeing men take their lives because they felt that there was no outlet other than to bury the emotions and to hope that they can get over it man up

[00:07:51] so this conversation is meant to be part of changing that stigma to change the narrative around what it means to be a man in today's world

[00:08:00] Todd when you were talking about your friend Neil

[00:08:04] I was thinking about how your friend waited up until the point where he couldn't take it anymore

[00:08:11] where his wife had to call you

[00:08:13] and a lot of men often resort to that waiting for someone else to take the action for them

[00:08:20] and hopefully through these conversations through the Gems Talk podcast

[00:08:24] through all the incredible work that Movember and the team does

[00:08:27] we can start to slowly change that narrative where it's okay to not be okay

[00:08:31] and it doesn't take away from your masculinity

[00:08:34] it doesn't make you any less of a man

[00:08:36] in fact when you are emotionally regulated

[00:08:40] that makes you more of a man

[00:08:42] and it's a strong confident man

[00:08:44] because then you're not so quick to get triggered

[00:08:46] think of the high school version of you

[00:08:49] I'm talking to the guys here specifically when you were in high school

[00:08:52] you're always like this and as soon as you ran into someone and made eye contact

[00:08:55] you had to show force and dominance like you were ready to fight them for some reason

[00:09:00] let's get rid of all that

[00:09:01] because honestly at the end of the day

[00:09:03] if you're hurting it's only you you're hurting

[00:09:07] so I want to introduce our panelists for today

[00:09:10] our first one is a motivational speaker

[00:09:14] soon to be life coach

[00:09:16] the first black winner of Big Brother Canada

[00:09:18] he's a friend, he's a brother

[00:09:21] he is

[00:09:24] probably one of the most handsome men I've ever met

[00:09:26] so

[00:09:27] to Sean Carter please

[00:09:43] our second panelist

[00:09:45] is a

[00:09:46] oh my wire is coming out

[00:09:48] our second panelist is a

[00:09:52] professor at Toronto Metropolitan University

[00:09:54] I always get that one wrong because I still call it Ryerson

[00:09:59] she specializes in mental health well-being

[00:10:02] she's an incredible speaker

[00:10:05] hopefully soon to be author

[00:10:08] and

[00:10:10] one of my dearest friends

[00:10:11] I met her on an episode of Gems Talk

[00:10:13] and we just hit it off and became the best of friends

[00:10:16] please welcome Dr. Ellen Choi

[00:10:32] and our last panelist

[00:10:34] you know him for his voice

[00:10:36] you know him for his lyrics

[00:10:38] which I can never in my best days put words together that way

[00:10:42] he's a Grammy nominated artist

[00:10:44] he's got over 3 billion streams on his songs

[00:10:48] please welcome JP Sax

[00:10:51] okay

[00:11:04] so

[00:11:06] obviously we talked about wanting to

[00:11:08] you know redefine the narrative around

[00:11:11] men's health, mental health, wellness

[00:11:14] so

[00:11:15] the first

[00:11:15] topic that I want to

[00:11:17] bring up here

[00:11:18] is around

[00:11:19] certain behaviors

[00:11:20] that men perpetuate

[00:11:21] for themselves

[00:11:22] right

[00:11:23] they show up a certain way in society

[00:11:25] and I'm wondering

[00:11:26] and I'll open this up with you to Sean

[00:11:28] I'm wondering from where you're sitting

[00:11:31] what are you seeing

[00:11:33] in men's

[00:11:34] modern masculinity

[00:11:35] that perpetuating a certain type of bravado

[00:11:38] machismo

[00:11:38] a certain way of behaving

[00:11:43] well

[00:11:43] I think we're in a place where

[00:11:53] there's a few schools of thought

[00:11:55] of what it means to be a man

[00:11:58] and

[00:11:59] there's a version of being a man

[00:12:01] what we see is

[00:12:03] the big, strong, tough

[00:12:06] macho guy

[00:12:07] and that's kind of the one

[00:12:09] that we're used to seeing throughout our whole lives

[00:12:11] you know that

[00:12:12] that kind of reminds me of like

[00:12:14] the version of a man I grew up with

[00:12:15] my grandfather

[00:12:16] was an example of that man

[00:12:18] he couldn't

[00:12:20] his way of speaking was yelling

[00:12:23] his way of communicating was anger

[00:12:26] there's that version of a man

[00:12:28] then there's the modern day man

[00:12:31] the one who talks about his feelings

[00:12:33] the one who communicates

[00:12:35] the one who is open, honest

[00:12:39] there's that version of a man

[00:12:41] but we're at a crossroads where

[00:12:44] it feels like there's almost

[00:12:46] a war between those two versions

[00:12:48] of being a man

[00:12:50] and what I've noticed

[00:12:52] in my life is that

[00:12:54] I get pulled in those two directions

[00:12:56] even just from the work I do

[00:12:58] as a social media influencer

[00:12:59] I'll give you an example

[00:13:00] I went on a podcast and I talked about

[00:13:04] you know I was in a relationship

[00:13:05] with my girlfriend

[00:13:06] and it's just when I got out of school

[00:13:08] and I didn't have a car yet

[00:13:10] and this video was posted online

[00:13:12] and immediately the comments were flooded

[00:13:15] with why are we in a relationship

[00:13:17] you can't afford to be in one

[00:13:21] you're not ready to be a man

[00:13:23] because you can't afford a car

[00:13:27] so why I bring that story up

[00:13:29] is that it's so hard for us to identify

[00:13:34] what, how do I become a man in today's world

[00:13:38] what does that look like

[00:13:39] where is the example coming from

[00:13:40] because social media will tell you one thing

[00:13:43] you've grown up with another version of it

[00:13:45] and I just think it's unclear

[00:13:50] where, where we learn how to become a man

[00:13:52] and I just think there's just a lack of clarity around that

[00:13:55] and I think it creates confusion

[00:13:57] and sometimes we see people just go off of the things

[00:14:00] that they learned growing up

[00:14:01] and that macho being is a lot

[00:14:04] that's what a lot of us grew up with

[00:14:06] and that's sometimes why we see it in my opinion

[00:14:09] JP, when you and I did a podcast episode together

[00:14:12] you talked about how you wrestled with what it means to be a man

[00:14:18] and how to show up in today's society

[00:14:20] but you said something specific to me

[00:14:21] you said, I'm celebrated for my vulnerability

[00:14:24] because you have the platform for it

[00:14:26] but there's a lot of men in your life that you know

[00:14:28] who if they were to venture off and dare talk about their emotions

[00:14:32] that they would not get the same treatment

[00:14:33] because they don't have the social notoriety

[00:14:36] how do you balance being aware of that

[00:14:39] while also trying to show up as your best self?

[00:14:42] Sure.

[00:14:44] What's up everyone?

[00:14:45] Thanks for coming. Nice to meet you.

[00:14:48] So I have a really lucky place in life

[00:14:52] where I get to do what I love

[00:14:53] and I get to talk to people about my feelings

[00:14:56] sing about them

[00:14:59] and I get to watch in real time

[00:15:02] the way people are comfy talking to me about their feelings

[00:15:07] because they feel as if I have just told them about mine

[00:15:10] on an album.

[00:15:12] In the same way that if you're in a conversation with somebody

[00:15:15] and you volunteer a piece of vulnerable information

[00:15:17] the human instinct is to be like

[00:15:18] oh they just told me something about themself

[00:15:20] I'm going to tell them something back.

[00:15:21] I get to see that over and over again with people who listen to my music.

[00:15:25] So it's easy for me to see vulnerability as strength.

[00:15:28] I honestly don't even consider what I do all that vulnerable

[00:15:30] controversial take.

[00:15:31] But I think getting to spend six months framing my emotions in a song

[00:15:37] is far too contrived and thoughtful

[00:15:39] even if it's sincere to fit my definition of vulnerability

[00:15:42] which is showing up before you've decided necessarily

[00:15:45] how you were going to present yourself.

[00:15:46] I think that's a lot braver.

[00:15:48] That aside, I get to go up on stage

[00:15:50] sing these songs about what it means to be myself

[00:15:52] and then people tell me their stories back.

[00:15:55] So that's maybe unrelatable unless you get to be a performer

[00:15:58] but I think the way that is applicable to all of us

[00:16:04] is that I think we misunderstand, a lot of us misunderstand

[00:16:09] but especially men that in order to be a safe person

[00:16:17] for the people you love to talk to, to show up for, to come to in a moment of pain, of struggle

[00:16:23] you have to be just fucking stoic all the time.

[00:16:27] You have to be like so sturdy.

[00:16:29] And I think that's such a misunderstanding because the people that I feel like I can turn to

[00:16:35] if I'm going through it are the people that have turned to me.

[00:16:40] Like I think, okay, like who has come to, who thought that I was close enough to them to ask me some shit

[00:16:46] when they were going through it?

[00:16:47] And then I'm like, okay, that's the person I'm going to go to.

[00:16:51] So, to your question, I get to see people coming to me with that because of the songs.

[00:16:57] I think sometimes as a man, if you want people to feel safe around you, you want people to feel like they can come to you with things.

[00:17:03] Maybe the first way you show them that they can is by letting them be there for you.

[00:17:09] That feels like a reframe that's been useful in my life.

[00:17:12] I can't always do it because I talk a good game but I'm still unlearning 31 years of being a man in society

[00:17:21] that's told me that if I don't, you know, keep it all together then I'm a mess.

[00:17:29] But I'm trying.

[00:17:31] Aren't we all?

[00:17:32] I'm talking about it on stage and stuff.

[00:17:36] Ellen, you, you know, when we're talking about, you know, JP touched on a point where it's almost like men are looking for permission.

[00:17:44] They want to see other men express themselves a certain way before they feel comfortable doing so.

[00:17:48] You and I had a conversation at length about the role that men's groups are beginning to enter into the conversation, the discourse around creating a platform or a space where men can almost feel comfortable talking about the things that bother them.

[00:18:06] You did a study recently on men's groups and I'm just curious from your perspective what you're seeing in that realm.

[00:18:17] I just got a wave of nervousness that just caught me so give me a minute.

[00:18:24] And I heard a couple of things in JP's response that feeds really well into this question.

[00:18:31] The first is this idea of reciprocity.

[00:18:34] I'm going to be vulnerable with someone that can be vulnerable back with me.

[00:18:38] And it's this loop.

[00:18:39] And one of the help seeking barriers we know about is actually reciprocity in that I might ask someone to help me build a shed because I know that I can help them back.

[00:18:54] But men, they don't feel like they could talk to someone about depression so they also don't want to talk to somebody else or ask for help to meet them with their need.

[00:19:06] Does that make sense?

[00:19:07] Mm-hm.

[00:19:07] And this idea of reciprocity really holds men back because they don't feel comfortable talking about the thing to begin with.

[00:19:16] Men's groups I think are a really interesting social phenomenon because you're using, well, like social cognitive learning theory for instance, where I observe something.

[00:19:28] I see it has a positive outcome so I think, okay, I'll do that too.

[00:19:32] And in men's groups you see someone that you respect, say something, share something incredibly vulnerable, break all the norms around it.

[00:19:46] And then instead of being ostracized, they're celebrated.

[00:19:50] They have more belonging, more connection, more authenticity, more power.

[00:19:57] And if being human is about really experiencing love and like presence here in what we've got, then what's really exciting about men's groups is that you have the permission to explore and let your guard down long enough to actually feel what's around you.

[00:20:23] It's funny because as you're talking about that bonding experience, it makes me think of something someone once told me where they said that, any golfers here?

[00:20:32] See a couple hands?

[00:20:34] They told me that golf was just an excuse for men to talk to each other in between, I don't know what you call the different parts of it.

[00:20:40] I'm not a golfer.

[00:20:43] But that it's just an excuse for us to connect with each other and talk about something that's not sports related.

[00:20:48] And ultimately it's also why we are so attracted to sports in general because it's an outlet.

[00:20:54] It's an emotional outlet.

[00:20:55] You're able to celebrate a big win, a big goal with your buddies by hugging them.

[00:21:00] And it's like probably the only time you'll ever hug your buddies type of thing.

[00:21:03] Deshaun, you spend a lot of time sort of in and around that space.

[00:21:08] What are you seeing knowing what you know?

[00:21:10] And then you go and you play basketball, for example, and you see the way guys will reciprocate the emotion.

[00:21:16] What are you seeing there that maybe we can take that somehow and use that in other forms of our lives?

[00:21:24] I think within sports, one thing I noticed to exactly what you're saying is it was a safe space for us.

[00:21:32] That was a place where we could cry, where we could hug, where we could really just come together and be ourselves.

[00:21:40] And I think the thing that we realize in sports is that we relate so well because we feel like there's a commonality between us.

[00:21:49] And the commonality in sports is we're all working to that common goal.

[00:21:54] In life, I think sometimes we forget, we all share the human experience, but we feel like we're individuals.

[00:22:03] Only I'm going through this.

[00:22:04] I feel alone through this.

[00:22:06] And I think in sports, that's the one place we don't feel alone.

[00:22:10] So the one thing I can say to take out of that space is the fact that we've got to understand that a lot of the struggles that we face, others are also going through.

[00:22:23] We've been heartbroken.

[00:22:25] We felt lonely.

[00:22:27] We felt lost in our careers.

[00:22:29] We felt like what is our purpose?

[00:22:31] Those are things that we share with other people.

[00:22:34] But when we go through it, we can get in our own heads to the point where we forget that it's part of the human experience.

[00:22:42] And then we keep it to ourselves and we bury it deeper and deeper and it piles up on us.

[00:22:46] And then we feel like we have nowhere to go with it.

[00:22:49] But the thing that we can take away from sports is the fact that we're all human.

[00:22:54] And there's a humanness to our struggle.

[00:22:58] And that we can be vulnerable with others.

[00:23:04] And I always say like vulnerability breeds more vulnerability.

[00:23:08] That's kind of what you were saying, Dr. Ellen, is that if I, and I've noticed this even with my friends who I grew up playing basketball with,

[00:23:15] our vulnerability only used to be on the basketball court.

[00:23:17] And now that I talk about my depression, my anxiety, I had one of my friends come to me and say, bro, I think I'm depressed.

[00:23:25] And he's somebody who would never say anything like that.

[00:23:28] And that changed because I showed some vulnerability.

[00:23:33] So I would say we'd have to bring those same concepts and bring them to the outside world.

[00:23:39] Because sports teaches us a lot about life.

[00:23:41] We forget to transfer those same skills and bring them to other arenas.

[00:23:45] And one of those is just being vulnerable and understanding that we're all working towards the same thing.

[00:23:51] We all want to feel important.

[00:23:52] We all want to feel loved.

[00:23:54] We all want to contribute something to the world.

[00:23:57] These are shared experiences of being human.

[00:24:00] JP, when you hear that, being in the industry that you're in, do you find other artists resonating with that?

[00:24:09] Where they want to encourage more of these conversations?

[00:24:13] Because the audience is obviously resonating with it.

[00:24:15] You're celebrated for it.

[00:24:16] They want more of it.

[00:24:18] But when you're, you know, when the lights are off, there's no audience in front of you.

[00:24:22] It's just you and some of your artist friends.

[00:24:24] You're working on stuff.

[00:24:26] Do you find that particularly the men, there's a willingness to share some of that vulnerability?

[00:24:33] I think there's a big difference between being able to make art out of it and being able to do it.

[00:24:39] And we were talking about crying earlier.

[00:24:42] I think crying is something we use as a symbol of like being able to express comfort in your masculinity.

[00:24:49] I cried when I watched the Raptors win the championship in 2019.

[00:24:57] I cried watching Transformers on an airplane.

[00:25:02] I didn't cry when my mom died.

[00:25:06] And...

[00:25:07] Why?

[00:25:08] I don't know.

[00:25:12] I think it's the oxygen on the airplanes, maybe?

[00:25:15] Like altitude?

[00:25:16] Like the impending potential doom?

[00:25:18] I have no idea.

[00:25:22] I don't know what it means to allow yourself to cry.

[00:25:25] I think there's such a physiological barrier there that I'm watching myself try and unlearn and not really sure how to find it.

[00:25:34] One of the ways I've worked on this is reframing for myself what strength means.

[00:25:43] You hear a lot of extraordinarily insufferable, awful men on the internet say that men aren't allowed to be strong anymore.

[00:25:49] Like you can't be a strong man anymore.

[00:25:51] Masculinity is under threat.

[00:25:54] I hate those guys.

[00:25:58] I think they're so dumb and harmful.

[00:26:00] That's not what we're here to talk about.

[00:26:02] I have found it helpful not to say, nah, you're not...

[00:26:06] It's not that you're not allowed to be strong.

[00:26:08] It's that your concept of strength is misguided.

[00:26:12] You know, we spent a lot of time talking about like where masculinity is harmful.

[00:26:16] We used the term toxic masculinity.

[00:26:18] I tried to think about like where masculinity is good.

[00:26:21] And I think when it comes to strength, it's good when we have the desire to protect the people around us.

[00:26:29] When we have the desire to make the people around us feel safe.

[00:26:32] And the strength it took to make people feel safe maybe 300 years ago was like a sword and a castle and being like real tough and beating the shit out of people.

[00:26:42] Being a rock, whatever that means.

[00:26:44] But rocks are bad listeners.

[00:26:47] No one necessarily feels safe around a rock.

[00:26:53] I want to be strong by making people feel safe around me.

[00:26:57] And I think that means making them feel like they can be themselves around me.

[00:27:04] It's a funny thing that happens to your question in the industry when something that we're working on as humans become something that we're working on performatively.

[00:27:13] Because you make progress performatively and you don't necessarily make progress sincerely.

[00:27:20] So my answer to you is it's complicated and I don't know what to do about it.

[00:27:25] Fair.

[00:27:27] And maybe that's something for everyone here to think about because there will be a Q&A and would love to also hear if there's other perspectives on that.

[00:27:34] But Ellen, is there another way maybe that we can reframe how masculinity is viewed?

[00:27:42] The whole strength being tied to it?

[00:27:47] I mean, Tashaun looks like a very strong guy.

[00:27:50] He does.

[00:27:51] But he's also very nice.

[00:27:52] He is.

[00:27:55] Okay.

[00:27:56] Sorry.

[00:27:56] That's a beautiful question.

[00:27:57] And if I'm being really honest, these responses are so rich and then we're switching topics so quickly.

[00:28:03] But I just want to mirror what I heard in this response because I was listening to Andrew Garfield read a beautiful poem and he wept in the middle of it.

[00:28:13] He couldn't finish reading it and he said, art allows us to access emotions we can't get to on our own because we have so many defenses in place and that's just the human experience.

[00:28:27] And how beautiful to hear you say I couldn't cry at the moment.

[00:28:32] I felt like I should cry.

[00:28:33] And yet I bet a lot of people out there have pride to some of these songs.

[00:28:39] So that's really beautiful.

[00:28:40] What a journey.

[00:28:45] Okay.

[00:28:46] The question is how can I reshape masculinity?

[00:28:50] Well.

[00:28:51] How do we reshape?

[00:28:53] Tell us.

[00:28:54] Now.

[00:28:55] I have one job up here.

[00:28:59] How would you reframe how masculine?

[00:29:02] Like right now there's a certain understanding of what it looks like.

[00:29:06] And obviously through conversations like these we're trying to push back against that narrative that exists.

[00:29:13] What are you seeing from your studies, the work you do in clinics that could potentially be used in a broader form to help change the narrative around what it means to be a man today?

[00:29:22] Okay.

[00:29:23] I got this, guys.

[00:29:25] Okay.

[00:29:28] We all have attitudes based on a set of beliefs that run that are often implicit.

[00:29:35] Like we're not always consciously processing the tape that's inside of us that's running the program.

[00:29:43] And things like gender norms, things like these socially normative ways of life, they fall in the bucket of unconscious processing.

[00:29:55] So, you know, you know you're supposed to look and listen and you know you're supposed to smile at the right spot and you know what polite looks like in different circumstances.

[00:30:06] To reprogram your attitudes, you have to have an experience that teaches you, oh, I think something in this program doesn't work anymore.

[00:30:19] You have to actually feel something that invites you to challenge the thing that's processing unconsciously so that you can say, okay, I think I might need to find a new tape.

[00:30:30] And I know from our discussions and even the way you started in this introduction that something happened to you where you realized, huh, this doesn't fit anymore.

[00:30:43] That's how we start to change it.

[00:30:45] So, part of it, I think, if I'm being really practical, humans, but especially men, have a tendency when something's wrong or hurts to try to fix it.

[00:31:01] You take this very active, externally oriented approach to fixing the problem.

[00:31:08] And actually, if you put men in like an fMRI machine versus women in a fMRI machine, apparently what we see in a study of empathy is that men's neural patterns, they flip really quickly to the how can I problem solve this much faster than women, which I think is so interesting.

[00:31:28] In any case, instead of trying to fix something on the outside world, can we become way more attuned to what's happening in our inner world?

[00:31:42] That's how you'll know the tape doesn't fit.

[00:31:44] That's how you'll know, oh, God, something's going on here and this program I'm running, it's leading to a set of behaviors and reactions and patterns that don't reflect what's true for me inside.

[00:31:59] And it's an inside job.

[00:32:01] So, it starts with the awareness and the attunement.

[00:32:05] And even if you can start to recognize all the times we're looking to the outside world and invite yourself to come back in for a moment and stay with yourself a little longer, I think that would be one very practical way to move towards change.

[00:32:25] You talked a lot about it being an inside job when we live in a world that's very external.

[00:32:32] Most of our validation comes from the external world and I just immediately think about social media and the role that social media plays in all of this and perpetuating a certain stereotype of how a man should show up in the world.

[00:32:44] I like to call it performative masculinity.

[00:32:47] Right?

[00:32:48] Unless you're, you know, ripped, sitting on an island somewhere tropical, making a million dollars a year driving a Bugatti, then you've somehow failed as a man.

[00:32:58] And that concept is just constantly being reinforced into the brains of young men.

[00:33:04] When they go online and they spend the most amount of their time on these platforms and that's what they see and the algorithms drive them, they go, okay, I guess this is what success looks like as a man.

[00:33:14] This is how I need to embody modern masculinity.

[00:33:18] How do you fight such a snowball effect?

[00:33:29] Your should self is this idea that's really resonating for me these days because your should self, when you're in it and when you're chasing it, it, you feel inside a sense of not enoughness, a sense of disconnection, almost fear.

[00:33:49] Like the feeling that, oh God, I didn't do my homework.

[00:33:53] There's like an angsty inner experience when your should self is driving the car.

[00:34:01] So you fight it by recognizing, oh, I'm chasing, I'm striving.

[00:34:07] I have to be more than who I am.

[00:34:13] When you have more permission just to be really with yourself, I think you know the difference between, I don't actually even know what a Bugatti is.

[00:34:29] That's how much of my inner world I've been exploring these days.

[00:34:35] I'll show you mine after.

[00:34:36] Okay, cool.

[00:34:38] Congratulations.

[00:34:39] I don't have a Bugatti.

[00:34:42] JP is so funny.

[00:34:45] So yeah, I think you fight it by recognizing, oh, cool, that's the chase.

[00:34:50] That's the part of me that wants to be bigger.

[00:34:54] That's the part of me that has all these desires.

[00:34:57] Oh, that's the messaging that I've been taught.

[00:35:00] And we all know it.

[00:35:01] We experience it in different ways.

[00:35:03] But then as soon as you can see it, that's the power of awareness.

[00:35:08] Consciousness does that.

[00:35:09] So you can see the pattern and then choose a different experience.

[00:35:13] And even this is like in mindfulness practices, they often say name it to tame it.

[00:35:18] It's like a limbic system thing.

[00:35:20] You can see the pattern and then once you see it, you're not in it in the same way.

[00:35:25] It's very Matrix-y, I suppose.

[00:35:29] Thoughts?

[00:35:31] On the Matrix?

[00:35:33] It's a good series.

[00:35:34] Thoughts on the role social media has been playing?

[00:35:38] You know, as an artist, you spend a lot of time, I don't know if it's you or a team,

[00:35:42] but you generally spend a lot of time on those platforms because that's where you're engaging with your fans outside of shows.

[00:35:48] That's where you're seeing how whatever you've posted is doing.

[00:35:52] And sometimes, you know, you and I have talked about this where you can end up going down the rabbit hole.

[00:35:56] What are your thoughts on what you're seeing on social media in relation to this?

[00:36:00] So the algorithm has been terrifying me lately because I have taken an interest in what we are talking about.

[00:36:07] So when I see people on the internet speaking in contradiction to what we believe, I listen because I'm interested in what people are seeing about masculinity online.

[00:36:22] But because I've watched it, the algorithm decides that I want to see that.

[00:36:27] And now, my algorithm makes me feel like an incel.

[00:36:31] It's so, like if you scroll through my for you page, you'll be like, this guy is fucking scary.

[00:36:36] I swear to God there's a difference between what gets my attention and what I care about.

[00:36:42] And I think that's what's frightening even on a capitalistic level about social media is that they are commodifying our attention.

[00:36:48] They're making money off of our attention.

[00:36:49] They don't give a shit about what's good for us.

[00:36:51] They give a shit about what we pay attention to.

[00:36:53] And if you're 15 years old and you're a guy or you're a male identifying person and you are trying to figure out what it means to be confident and be okay with yourself.

[00:37:03] And then you see someone who looks confident and okay with himself, talking about the beach and the Bugatti.

[00:37:10] You watch that a little too long and then it's all you're seeing.

[00:37:13] That's terrifying.

[00:37:14] It's all I'm seeing.

[00:37:18] And...

[00:37:18] That's right.

[00:37:19] There's an echo chamber that happens there.

[00:37:21] Because then you see the other men in those comment sections reinforcing this idea.

[00:37:26] And then what ends up happening is you finally feel that sense of community.

[00:37:29] The one that you've been longing for.

[00:37:30] Or someone else feeling something similar to you.

[00:37:33] Yeah.

[00:37:37] So, to social media like yeah.

[00:37:39] Like I use it to...

[00:37:41] I use it to feel a type of way about myself.

[00:37:43] Like my happiness levels on any given day are based on how many likes my last post got.

[00:37:49] I don't know how to separate myself from that.

[00:37:51] I'm being minorly facetious but that's a little bit true.

[00:37:54] Like how I think I'm doing in my life has a direct correlation to how well my last post performed.

[00:37:59] Which is so like disconnected from reality.

[00:38:04] But like I struggle with that and I would like to think that like I'm reasonably chill with myself.

[00:38:11] So, I don't know what that looks like if you're a young person navigating that.

[00:38:16] That just scares the crap out of me.

[00:38:18] Yeah.

[00:38:19] Sean you called yourself a social influencer.

[00:38:22] Which means you spend quite a bit of your day basically navigating these platforms.

[00:38:27] And you and I have had conversations around where you try to show up as an authentic version of yourself.

[00:38:34] Showcase that just like everyone else in this room.

[00:38:37] You go through the highs and lows of just being a human.

[00:38:40] But for the most part the content that does well is the one where you're faking it.

[00:38:45] And for a lot of men who see that stuff and think that to your point, this is what life should always be like.

[00:38:53] I should be coasting.

[00:38:55] How do you reconcile the contradictions?

[00:38:58] It's tough because to be honest with you, to be transparent, I had to take a break from social media.

[00:39:06] Like leading up to this event.

[00:39:09] Because I felt like it was just having such a negative impact on my mental health.

[00:39:13] I was constantly comparing.

[00:39:15] Constantly stuck in the numbers.

[00:39:17] Constantly just feeling like I'm not good enough.

[00:39:20] And I got to a place where it was like you can either change your mindset about the thing or change the thing.

[00:39:26] And I'm still stuck on changing the thing.

[00:39:29] Because I haven't, I'm still doing that internal work.

[00:39:32] But to your question, Samir, it's tough.

[00:39:37] Because on one hand, when I walk down to the, when I'm sitting on the beach with my shirt off,

[00:39:42] everyone's like, yeah, post more of that.

[00:39:45] When I'm talking about real things like, I'm really struggling today.

[00:39:51] And you know, it's, it's, I'm struggling with my mental health.

[00:39:55] And I'm telling stories, real stories about where I'm at.

[00:39:59] It doesn't perform as well.

[00:40:01] So now I'm stuck in this place of, do I do what performs well?

[00:40:05] Or do I stay true to myself?

[00:40:08] And I wrestle with it because I can't picture a life where we're just performing all the time.

[00:40:15] It's not a, it's not a way of, it's not a way of life for me.

[00:40:20] So, to your question, I don't fully know how to answer that.

[00:40:24] Because it's a challenge that I even had to step away from to look internally.

[00:40:29] And right now I'm just trying to figure out what, what's my purpose?

[00:40:35] What makes me happy?

[00:40:38] How do I get a sense of self-worth outside of social media?

[00:40:43] How do you do that?

[00:40:44] How?

[00:40:46] I think, how am I actually doing it?

[00:40:48] Well, I think one thing that has been big for me is faith.

[00:40:54] Just believing that, you know, God has a plan for me.

[00:40:58] And that everything that I'm feeling is, I need to work through the things that I'm going through right now.

[00:41:04] But that there's a bigger plan for me.

[00:41:06] Another one has just been learning to love myself.

[00:41:10] Spending more time alone.

[00:41:12] Because I felt like I got to a point in my life where, again, I was looking for that validation from social media.

[00:41:17] But it wasn't just social media.

[00:41:18] It was leaning on friends to tell me how amazing I am.

[00:41:22] Dating sporadically just so that I could feel that love.

[00:41:26] I got lost in it.

[00:41:28] So right now, I'm just in a point where I'm just looking inward through faith.

[00:41:34] Through just actually learning to love time with myself.

[00:41:38] And spend time with myself.

[00:41:40] Doing things that I actually love.

[00:41:42] Going for bike rides.

[00:41:44] Spending in nature.

[00:41:46] Going to group, meeting groups of men who are on that same wavelength.

[00:41:51] Where there's community and finding men.

[00:41:53] Like I went to a men's healing in nature retreat.

[00:41:56] And that was freeing.

[00:41:58] Because I got to be around men.

[00:41:59] And I realized that the struggle that I'm going through, I'm not alone in that.

[00:42:04] So finding community.

[00:42:05] So that's kind of where my focal point has been.

[00:42:08] Because I got so lost in that online world.

[00:42:10] And that kind of speaks to what Ellen was talking about in relation to the men's groups.

[00:42:16] So Ellen, I'm going to ask you.

[00:42:19] In those studies that you were doing.

[00:42:22] Was there something that really stood out to you.

[00:42:25] And came as a surprise.

[00:42:27] In seeing how the men were responding to it.

[00:42:34] I think something that's very beautiful about what I noticed in men's groups.

[00:42:42] Was as the bravado breaks down.

[00:42:48] As the masks come off.

[00:42:54] What people described experiencing is.

[00:42:57] I thought I had to be this person.

[00:43:00] My whole life I just wanted to be loved.

[00:43:02] And I just wanted to matter.

[00:43:03] And I just wanted to be myself.

[00:43:05] But I put on all this armor.

[00:43:07] Because the world told me I had to.

[00:43:09] And then in this space I took it off.

[00:43:11] And I was loved.

[00:43:14] And I could feel it.

[00:43:15] Because I had no armor on.

[00:43:17] That's what the group does.

[00:43:20] It creates a safe enough container.

[00:43:23] For people to take off their armor.

[00:43:26] And that's I think a really special thing.

[00:43:30] Because this terrifying stat.

[00:43:34] That we know about men's health and suicide.

[00:43:40] It was new to me Todd.

[00:43:42] That in the year before people successfully commit suicide.

[00:43:47] They've actually sought help.

[00:43:48] And I think the prevalence of one-on-one therapy.

[00:43:54] Which really doesn't appeal to much of the normative upbringing of men.

[00:44:01] To go one-on-one.

[00:44:03] And then share your whole heart out.

[00:44:07] Also because about 80% of therapists are women.

[00:44:11] It's like an additional.

[00:44:14] There's just barriers, barriers, barriers.

[00:44:16] But there's something in men's groups that is powerful right away.

[00:44:21] Because it uses different mechanisms.

[00:44:23] And even by watching someone move through the process.

[00:44:28] You get this like very similar benefits.

[00:44:31] And that's powerful too.

[00:44:33] Because we often can't access our own sad.

[00:44:36] Our own neediness.

[00:44:38] Our own weakness.

[00:44:39] But when you see it in someone else.

[00:44:40] You're like oh.

[00:44:42] I recognize that person.

[00:44:43] I felt that too.

[00:44:46] When you talk about permission.

[00:44:50] Seeing other men behave a certain way.

[00:44:54] And giving you that sense of it's okay to reciprocate.

[00:44:57] We've got two dads in the audience here.

[00:45:00] Deshawn's dad is here.

[00:45:03] Hey, Cedric.

[00:45:05] And JP's dad is also here.

[00:45:07] There he is. Hello, sir.

[00:45:10] Yeah, why not?

[00:45:15] What are...

[00:45:16] JP, I'll start with you.

[00:45:18] What's something that you've seen your father embody.

[00:45:21] That's taught you to be this current version of yourself?

[00:45:25] That's a nice question.

[00:45:29] My dad is really good at showing up for the people he loves.

[00:45:34] He has my whole life.

[00:45:36] He's very good at making people feel whoever they are is okay.

[00:45:44] And that if they need him, we'll be there.

[00:45:47] Simple.

[00:45:47] It's really beautiful.

[00:45:48] And I think that's at the core of my belief of strength as a man.

[00:45:53] I was thinking about something when we were talking earlier.

[00:45:55] I'm going to spit fire on it.

[00:45:56] It might be completely dumb.

[00:45:58] But the...

[00:46:00] It seems that the things that are easy to project as strength and confidence,

[00:46:08] like wealth, like having hot partners, lots of hot partners, like success in your career,

[00:46:22] are the things that we first associate with what it takes to be confident and grounded and okay.

[00:46:30] But that those things prove ineffective.

[00:46:34] And that the things that do prove effective, like what you were talking about, having those one-in-one connections,

[00:46:38] being in a men's nature retreat.

[00:46:41] Those things are a little more complicated to project.

[00:46:46] They're a little bit more complicated to show.

[00:46:49] And I think that creates this loop where we only really see the things that people are.

[00:46:56] Flexing.

[00:46:56] Yep.

[00:46:57] I'm not necessarily flexing my healthy relationship with my male friends.

[00:47:04] I am flexing my stream count.

[00:47:06] He did it for me.

[00:47:07] I am.

[00:47:09] I'm sorry.

[00:47:09] So, I think it makes perfect sense if someone would be like, oh, he's one shit.

[00:47:17] He fucks hot people.

[00:47:18] He travels the world.

[00:47:20] I'm going to do that.

[00:47:22] And then I'm going to feel great.

[00:47:24] Whereas, like, those maybe aren't the things that make us feel great.

[00:47:30] We just don't share those.

[00:47:31] And I'm not sure how we do it.

[00:47:32] But maybe making an intentional effort as you are presenting yourself on the internet,

[00:47:36] as we are presenting ourselves to the people around us physically and virtually,

[00:47:40] that does move the needle there.

[00:47:43] My dad never had an Instagram until however many years ago.

[00:47:49] But he's lived in that way.

[00:47:52] And he didn't accumulate the things that you necessarily associate with strength and power.

[00:47:59] But that doesn't mean he doesn't have strength and power.

[00:48:03] Absolutely.

[00:48:05] To Sean, same question.

[00:48:07] What's something that you've learned from your dad that's shaped the kind of man you are today?

[00:48:12] The type that's sitting on a stage like this talking about a topic like this?

[00:48:16] I think his vulnerability to make other people feel good.

[00:48:26] So for those of you that don't know, my dad's a stand-up comedian.

[00:48:31] And to get up on stage every night and not only speak but try to make people laugh?

[00:48:41] That's hard.

[00:48:42] And he does it every night.

[00:48:45] And he does it so that other people feel good.

[00:48:49] And I think there's obviously a balance to that because for me sometimes I become a full-ass people pleaser.

[00:48:55] And that's where it goes too far.

[00:48:57] But it's just the like, I love to make people around me feel good.

[00:49:02] I like to see people smile.

[00:49:03] I like to see people around me be happy.

[00:49:08] And I think that's what my dad has shown me.

[00:49:11] There's really just, he lights up a room.

[00:49:15] And it's something that he's shown me that it has an impact on people when you've heard them.

[00:49:21] Or you're giving something, delivering something.

[00:49:24] He's giving.

[00:49:25] And that's like why I like to give so much.

[00:49:27] Like why I like to share my stories because it's not an easy story to share.

[00:49:32] But there's something about giving that makes other people feel good and it makes me feel good.

[00:49:39] For the three of you, we've talked a lot about this subject in a very sort of theoretical way.

[00:49:47] You know, like this is what, how we view modern masculinity.

[00:49:51] Here are some of the experiences with it.

[00:49:53] But from a practical perspective.

[00:49:55] Now, and you touched on this a little bit.

[00:49:58] What exactly could people do to support the men in their lives who are struggling with something?

[00:50:05] And if you're a man who's struggling with something, how can, what steps could they take to move forward so that they don't end up a statistic?

[00:50:18] Do you guys want me to go first or do you know what's going to happen?

[00:50:21] I think they're just a good question.

[00:50:23] You're so much more educated than me.

[00:50:26] Oh, that's funny. I have one job. Okay.

[00:50:33] Just what Tishan described there made it sound so beautiful.

[00:50:39] Like I love, I love sharing my story.

[00:50:43] I love making people around me feel happy.

[00:50:47] That's a beautiful thing.

[00:50:50] And yet it has a dark side.

[00:50:54] And I want to name it because it's part of traditional masculinity in that you have to be, you have to be everybody's rock.

[00:51:04] You're the thing that brings joy.

[00:51:06] I call my son, my sunshine a lot and I should probably stop doing that.

[00:51:11] Because it breathes people pleasing.

[00:51:15] So I want to name it so we can see it faster.

[00:51:18] And when you feel like I have to be all the things for all the people, then you can see that arc.

[00:51:26] And the simplest thing I think you could practice is like, again, spend more time in your inner world.

[00:51:34] And the question is, do I like this?

[00:51:37] Do I like this?

[00:51:38] Do I not like this?

[00:51:41] Ah, Ellen likes this.

[00:51:43] Hmm.

[00:51:43] Ellen should be doing this, but Ellen doesn't like it.

[00:51:46] And it's so simple.

[00:51:48] But even if you can just notice how often you're in one of those two buckets, would be great.

[00:51:58] The second thing I would say is find a practice that allows you to build the skills to love and accept yourself.

[00:52:08] We've touched on it a few times.

[00:52:11] There's a difference between optimal self-esteem and contingent self-esteem.

[00:52:15] And all the Bugattis in the world is about contingent self-esteem.

[00:52:20] All the likes are, I feel good about myself when boom, boom, boom, boom, boom is happening.

[00:52:25] That's contingent self-esteem.

[00:52:27] It's the world we know and it's important because we live in a world where things like that are fun and nice and great.

[00:52:34] And optimal self-esteem is literally defined as the extent to which you love and accept yourself.

[00:52:43] And the best time you get to practice that is when your life is falling apart.

[00:52:48] It's when things are shitty, when you've really fucked up, and then you're like on the ground and suffering.

[00:52:55] And then you're like, oh, this is the moment.

[00:52:59] Can I practice loving and accepting this version of myself?

[00:53:03] Ah, I'm going to let this in.

[00:53:05] Good.

[00:53:05] This is the chance I get to build this muscle.

[00:53:07] Is there anybody here that can resonate with that?

[00:53:10] Yeah.

[00:53:13] Cool. Okay.

[00:53:13] I have a follow-up.

[00:53:18] So, we want to work on all of those things.

[00:53:22] But don't necessarily want to tear our entire lives apart to be crashing and burning in order to find the type of sincere confidence that you're describing.

[00:53:31] You want to sit with yourself and ask, do I like this?

[00:53:34] Do I JP like this?

[00:53:35] Do I not like this?

[00:53:36] But I have no idea how to tap into that feeling outside of seeing it in other people.

[00:53:41] I mean, I've noticed that even in talking about masculinity, I'm talking about how it exists for the people around me.

[00:53:47] Not what it means to me.

[00:53:48] That's a harder question.

[00:53:50] How do you access the kind of honesty you're talking about if shit isn't completely crumbling to the ground?

[00:53:56] I feel so humbled that I get to have a shot at answering this question.

[00:54:01] But this is how Ellen would answer that question.

[00:54:04] I would say there's this idea of, say, proprioception.

[00:54:08] Like your awareness of your body in space.

[00:54:11] Proprioception.

[00:54:12] So, like, if you're on stage, you kind of, like, have a sense for where your hands are, where the hands are on the mic.

[00:54:18] And if you're a golfer, since we were doing that, you might have a really good understanding of your body in space.

[00:54:26] Interoception is your awareness of your internal body experience.

[00:54:31] So when you feel sad, sad actually shows up as a physiological expression in your body.

[00:54:38] And when you feel stressed, and maybe stress is something that we can recognize more easily, like our palms do something, our bellies do something, our heart does something.

[00:54:47] I would start there.

[00:54:49] So I like this, I don't like this will feel familiar once you build interoception.

[00:54:56] And interoception is really cool because it helps you actually make decisions better.

[00:54:59] It helps you be guided by your intuition.

[00:55:03] Stockbrokers with higher interoception, they make more money, they last longer in their jobs.

[00:55:07] Back to the money. Sick.

[00:55:09] I know, I know.

[00:55:10] It's the thing that, like, gets people to listen to the other things I have to say.

[00:55:17] But the next time you're doing something and you're like, this is fun, instead of getting lost in the funness, take like a hot minute to go inside and be like, what does happiness feel like for me inside?

[00:55:30] Oh, I feel warm here. And I feel openness here. And the next time you're sad or feel like I should be sad here, instead of disassociating, you peek inside and you say, oh, something's aching here.

[00:55:49] Oh, heartbreak hurts on both sides. And you attune to the inner world. Good luck.

[00:56:03] Thank you so much, everybody that's here. We appreciate you guys coming out. The gentleman with the beautiful jacket and the amazing stash.