The Secret Trait of Successful People: Chance Kornuth | Ep.129 - Gent's Talk

[00:00:00] A very common trait with successful people is they're not content. Everyone's driven to continue to build something or achieve something.

[00:00:07] At what cost?

[00:00:11] Chance Kornuth is an entrepreneur and professional poker player with over $18.5 million in live tournament earnings.

[00:00:18] Chance is the founder of Chip Leader Coaching and appeared on the big game on tour with PokerStars.

[00:00:24] If it took 10 years to hit 10 million, and then the last couple of years you've jumped to 18 million, what happened there?

[00:00:29] I actually got sober.

[00:00:31] How did you do that?

[00:00:32] It's one thing to say I don't want to drink anymore, but it's another thing to set the groundwork in place and the steps you need to in order not to drink.

[00:00:39] Goals without steps to achieve them are just dreams.

[00:00:42] You've played in two tournaments so far. You're playing in the third.

[00:00:45] What's your thinking going into the third one if the first two weren't as successful?

[00:00:50] I think being honest with yourself is really important in poker.

[00:00:53] For me, it's like I want to do some self-reflection and look at what kind of mistakes I made and why.

[00:00:58] If I was starting out today and I wanted to become a poker player, what advice would you give me?

[00:01:04] First chance, welcome to the Gents Talk Podcast.

[00:01:24] Thank you.

[00:01:24] I'm excited to have this conversation. We're talking here in Las Vegas at the North American Poker Tour with PokerStars.

[00:01:31] You've played in a couple of tournaments already. You're playing in a third one tonight.

[00:01:38] How do you play in so many back-to-back tournaments?

[00:01:42] Because it's not a short game. There's hours invested in that.

[00:01:48] Yeah, I mean I've played a 25k so far and then the 5k main, I played two full starting days and busted five bullets halfway through day two.

[00:02:00] And it's just part of the game. You know, there's a lot of wins and losses and you just kind of have to shrug it off and do your routine and get back into it.

[00:02:08] Well, you're sitting here in front of me with a smile on your face so I think that you're still in a positive spirit.

[00:02:12] Yeah, I mean my life's still pretty good. I don't let the results necessarily define my day.

[00:02:18] You know, I have other measures. It's like, okay, I got a little bit of work done.

[00:02:23] I was able to do like sauna cold plunge, sauna cold plunge this morning so I feel pretty good.

[00:02:27] Oh, whereabouts?

[00:02:27] I stay with a friend off strip.

[00:02:29] Okay, okay. I was looking for something like that at Resorts World. I was hoping there'd be something I could use.

[00:02:34] I mean maybe in five or ten years but yeah, it's coming.

[00:02:37] Well, it's catching on. I feel like everybody is starting to finally understand the benefits of taking the sauna and then the cold plunge.

[00:02:42] Yeah.

[00:02:44] And I've done both like many times individually but never in succession.

[00:02:49] And the euphoria that you like feel that second cold plunge is just insane, yeah.

[00:02:53] Like your body just wakes up right away no matter what you're feeling in that moment.

[00:02:58] Absolutely.

[00:02:59] So you've been a poker player now for how long?

[00:03:02] Only real job I've ever had as an adult so professional I guess you could say 18 years.

[00:03:07] 18 years, okay.

[00:03:07] And in those 18 years and correct me if I'm wrong, you have just north of $18 million worth of winnings from the various tournaments.

[00:03:16] In live tournaments.

[00:03:17] In live tournaments.

[00:03:18] Yeah, I mean I sharpened my teeth I guess you could say playing online on PokerStars and the other sites from back in the day.

[00:03:24] Okay.

[00:03:52] Yeah.

[00:03:54] And I think that's a supermind sometimes and these are very interesting people, you know, very successful businessmen.

[00:03:58] And it's good networking opportunity.

[00:04:00] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:04:01] Like even at this tournament, I was just thinking about the number of different people that I've encountered in the handful of days I've been here and I'm like just from all walks of life.

[00:04:08] Yeah.

[00:04:08] So when I said the 18 million, does that number ever just sound wild to you at this point?

[00:04:15] If you ever look at that and go wow or is it now kind of like, all right.

[00:04:19] Yeah, I mean I guess like in the last three years it shot up from 10 to 18.

[00:04:24] So it's been pretty significant.

[00:04:26] Thank you.

[00:04:27] But I mean people don't see like the buy-ins or selling action like a lot of my results have been in like 100k buy-in or a 250k buy-in in which, you know, I'm not going to just put up the entire amount.

[00:04:37] So I'll sell action and reduce my risk and stuff like that.

[00:04:41] Okay.

[00:04:42] What was it that triggered the, if it took 10 years to hit let's say 10 million and then in the last three years you said, or sorry not 10 years, but if it took that first half of your career to hit the 10 and then the last couple of years you've jumped to 18.

[00:04:57] Like what was the difference?

[00:04:58] What happened there?

[00:04:59] I actually got sober.

[00:05:01] I, uh, my daughter was born January, December, 2020 and January, February, I began my journey in sobriety and, you know, it's been now almost four years later.

[00:05:12] Um, I've been completely sober from everything except for nicotine and caffeine for over like almost two and a half years.

[00:05:17] So, wow.

[00:05:18] So I think that that has a lot to do with it.

[00:05:21] Congrats.

[00:05:22] Thank you.

[00:05:22] Yeah.

[00:05:22] It was a necessary change for me.

[00:05:25] Why?

[00:05:25] Uh, I'm, you know, my, I have a lot of family members on both sides that have addictive personalities.

[00:05:31] And I always kind of knew that, uh, I did as well.

[00:05:34] And then during COVID I started drinking more and.

[00:05:37] Like a lot of people did.

[00:05:38] Yeah.

[00:05:39] And just kind of realized that, you know, I had a, you know, a career in partying and stuff like that.

[00:05:46] And I was ready to do not.

[00:05:48] How much of that was, you mentioned you had a young daughter at the time.

[00:05:51] Like how much of that was part of the decision.

[00:05:55] And was there a particular moment that you can think back on that finally triggered the

[00:06:00] I didn't to change this?

[00:06:03] Um, maybe not a particular moment, but I had like, you know, I had great parents, but I

[00:06:10] didn't have sober parents and, uh, I wanted my child to have that.

[00:06:14] Yeah.

[00:06:14] Mm-hmm.

[00:06:15] I know that during the pandemic, there was a lot of men that struggled with that.

[00:06:19] Like, you know, in Canada, so we're from Toronto, but in Canada, the liquor stores were mostly

[00:06:25] the only thing that stayed open.

[00:06:27] And there was a rise in the number of people who were just suddenly drinking a lot more because

[00:06:32] really and truly there were no other outlets, right?

[00:06:34] You couldn't go out and watch sports on TV.

[00:06:36] You could go to the bar.

[00:06:37] Yeah.

[00:06:37] I mean, I was drinking every night.

[00:06:38] Yeah.

[00:06:38] And, uh, instead of like going to bed and connecting with my wife, I would like stay

[00:06:43] up and have a couple more drinks and watch a movie.

[00:06:45] And it was just needless and pointless when there was no benefit and just decided that

[00:06:50] enough was enough.

[00:06:52] So if I may ask, if I was a fly on the wall at that moment where you were really sort of

[00:07:00] struggling with the, the, the drinking and then trying to reconcile the fact that you

[00:07:06] needed to change, what would I have seen?

[00:07:12] Someone who wasn't the best version of themselves.

[00:07:15] You know, that was kind of like one of the biggest factors for me is like, before I

[00:07:20] got sober, I always felt like I was operating at like 15 to 20% of my potential.

[00:07:24] And I was always, you know, a very successful and pretty known poker player, but it just

[00:07:30] wasn't where I wanted to be.

[00:07:32] And I decided that I wanted to operate, you know, closer to a hundred.

[00:07:37] And I would say I'm still got a long ways to go as far as the self-improvement category

[00:07:41] is concerned, but, uh, I'm steadily making steps in the right direction.

[00:07:45] Well, that's all it comes down to is steps, right?

[00:07:47] Like it's not an overnight process.

[00:07:49] And I think that's something that a lot of people misunderstand about improving an aspect

[00:07:54] of their life, no matter what it is, is that it's not an overnight thing.

[00:07:57] It's going to take daily habits, monthly check-ins, constant work, and there's going to be moments

[00:08:03] where you feel like you're failing or you're not getting ahead.

[00:08:06] And it's that, no, it's okay.

[00:08:08] Be patient as hard as it is to be patient.

[00:08:10] Yeah.

[00:08:10] I've always thought like self-forgiveness was really important and particularly in poker,

[00:08:14] you know, make a mistake.

[00:08:15] And if you're, excuse me, uh, dwelling on that mistake, then you're very likely to make

[00:08:21] another one.

[00:08:21] But if you're able to renew yourself and move on and be in the moment and play your best,

[00:08:25] then you're more likely to have success.

[00:08:26] So can you, you know, we have, uh, an audience that's very sort of invested in how to improve

[00:08:35] their lives in different ways and whether they've struggled with, um, with drinking or

[00:08:40] drugs or an addictive behavior of some kind in any other way.

[00:08:45] Can you maybe share some insight into how you evolved your mindset to go from relying on

[00:08:52] a substance to, I want to make conscious improvements to my life.

[00:08:56] How did you do that?

[00:08:59] Um, I guess the same way that you would try to improve on anything.

[00:09:02] It's like, it's one thing to say, I don't want to drink anymore.

[00:09:05] Right. But it's another thing to set the groundwork in place and the steps you need

[00:09:09] to in order not to drink.

[00:09:11] You know, there's, you could see an addiction specialist, you could go to meetings, you can

[00:09:14] do, you know, variety of different things.

[00:09:16] You could replace the addiction with working out or something like that.

[00:09:19] Um, but I think they're like goals without steps to achieve them are just dreams.

[00:09:25] And in order to have success in anything and improve in anything, you really need to like

[00:09:29] do the figure out what day to day work you need to in order to be successful.

[00:09:33] Okay. So I'm going to ask you what would probably be a very obvious question here.

[00:09:38] Um, I had a guest on previously who talked about a very similar addiction.

[00:09:42] His was, um, a drug of some kind.

[00:09:46] I can't recall it top of mind right now, but he talked about how the, one of his most effective

[00:09:52] methods was to physically remove himself from environments that promoted that type of

[00:09:58] behavior.

[00:09:59] So yeah, when you're in a city like Las Vegas, sometimes there could be, or not even this

[00:10:06] Vegas could be anywhere, right?

[00:10:07] Like if you go to a restaurant, you can like, you're surrounded by that.

[00:10:11] How do you keep yourself disciplined?

[00:10:16] Hmm.

[00:10:16] I think for me, the accountability is really important.

[00:10:19] You know, all of my friends and family know that I don't drink anymore.

[00:10:23] And so if I were to order a drink at the table, it'd kind of be like a, a what the fuck moment

[00:10:28] for them, you know?

[00:10:29] And I think that accountability is probably the biggest thing.

[00:10:33] And in moments where you feel like you might be teetering on the edge of going back into

[00:10:40] or falling back into that trap.

[00:10:42] How do you sort of pull yourself back?

[00:10:46] Um, I would say like mindfulness.

[00:10:49] You know, it's something that I've been interested in and kind of studied for 10, 15 years now.

[00:10:55] And I don't have a meditation practice anymore, but I still have that power of breath.

[00:10:59] And so if I'm thinking about drinking or negatives, I just can kind of just bring myself back to the present.

[00:11:07] You know, it's dwelling on that desire that makes it grow.

[00:11:10] And so if you're able to turn off that train of thought, I think that that helps.

[00:11:16] Breath work is so important.

[00:11:18] In like every aspect of life, I think we forget.

[00:11:21] I mean, because we just do it so consciously, we forget how important it is.

[00:11:24] And if you're in a moment of frustration, anger, you're sitting at the poker table and things aren't going your way.

[00:11:29] It's like, I take that moment to just go, let me just give myself a beat here.

[00:11:36] Like recalibrate and then decide the next path forward.

[00:11:40] Well, and it's the muscle too.

[00:11:41] The more you use it, the stronger it gets.

[00:11:43] So like people that have never trained their breath, it might be stressed or frustrated and they'll take a breath and it won't really do anything for them.

[00:11:51] But if you've been working on that over time and whether it's a daily meditation practice or just doing it every time that you need it, it will get more effective over time.

[00:11:59] When you said that you don't have a meditation practice, did you mean like you were offering approaches for people to learn how to meditate?

[00:12:08] No, I used to meditate. Like I used to have a practice in the morning that was like a meditation bench and pillow.

[00:12:13] It had some like a little bit of yoga in it and just overall getting your day started on the right page.

[00:12:21] And why did you stop?

[00:12:23] Not sure.

[00:12:24] You know, it's something that maybe once or twice a month, I'll think that I should get back into it.

[00:12:29] But I just haven't.

[00:12:30] What was the biggest benefits of doing that?

[00:12:33] And I ask because I've had so many people talk to me about meditating and the importance of it and the value of it and the positives that it brings.

[00:12:39] And I just can't seem to bring myself to it.

[00:12:42] So I'm trying to really understand like, how does it help?

[00:12:45] Okay.

[00:12:46] I would say that one of the biggest benefits I could think of is your ability to like process is increased.

[00:12:55] And so, you know, I think of us as computers and we have a certain amount of RAM.

[00:13:00] If you have all these other pages open, it's less computing power to complete the task at hand.

[00:13:06] And for me, meditation is a tool to close all of the other shit that's open and just focus on one thing.

[00:13:13] And when you're focused on one thing, you have more RAM to be able to handle it or to do it.

[00:13:18] So it's almost like creating a linear passive thinking on just one item as opposed to the million different things that are going off.

[00:13:24] Yeah, exactly.

[00:13:27] You know, I think that happens to me when I go running.

[00:13:30] I find that I'm able to focus a lot more.

[00:13:32] Running is incredibly meditative because you're so conscious of your breath or your steps or whatever.

[00:13:37] Like for me, the most meditative thing I do right now is like morning workouts because I'm so focused on the form or the breathing and the right tension points and stuff like that.

[00:13:47] What kind of prep go do you do before you go into playing a game of poker?

[00:13:55] Sometimes I'll do just a little bit of breath work, some stretching.

[00:14:00] I'm kind of think about what my table looks like.

[00:14:02] And I created this tool called Table Spy where you can like search your whole table immediately instead of like the names of who's playing.

[00:14:09] Yeah. And you can see like you looked at my lifetime earnings before I came here.

[00:14:12] So I got a little program allows you to copy paste all nine people from your table and it outputs it onto the table and you can hover over each person and say, OK, chances 18.

[00:14:20] This guy's got 500K. This guy's brand new and you can kind of develop a game plan moving forward.

[00:14:26] How intricate is a game plan that you develop?

[00:14:33] You know, there's like steel spots where it's like, OK, I want to be more aggressive against this player and be tighter against this player.

[00:14:39] So like everything in poker is like so you have kind of a baseline of the strategy that you play.

[00:14:44] And then the deviations that you take, whether it's more aggressive or less aggressive, it would be based on who you're playing against.

[00:14:51] How long did it take you to learn all of that? Like this like developed a sort of approach to playing poker?

[00:14:57] I mean, tournaments have been kind of my sole focus in poker for the last seven years, I guess.

[00:15:03] And so I only recently like started working on my game more.

[00:15:07] I think that a lot of it is that I happen to be good at pattern recognition and, you know, the math aspects of it and naturally aggressive, which is good for tournaments as well.

[00:15:18] How easy is it to learn that? Like I'm always fascinated. I play it recreational.

[00:15:24] But like when it comes to like pattern recognition and I was having this conversation yesterday with a couple of people about, you know, there's so much going on at the tables.

[00:15:33] Right. There's people talking, there's people moving around you, there's cameras everywhere.

[00:15:37] Like there's just so much.

[00:15:39] Back to power of focus and meditation.

[00:15:41] OK.

[00:15:41] Yeah.

[00:15:42] But as far as like learning, there's a ton of great resources out there, free and paid.

[00:15:47] Mine happens to be paid.

[00:15:48] I was going to ask you about that.

[00:15:50] You know, we have an AI learning platform that's, you know, think about how a tree grows.

[00:15:53] There's the trunk and the branches.

[00:15:56] You have to learn to like walk before you can run.

[00:15:58] Right.

[00:15:59] So like you have to learn preflop raises and all of the preflop stuff before you move on to flop, turn and river.

[00:16:04] And ours basically, if you're really good at something, it shoots you into the branches.

[00:16:08] If you struggle at something, it keeps you closer to the trunk and allows you to focus on that and get your foundation before you move on.

[00:16:16] Is there a technique that you've learned specifically for poker that you now apply in your daily life?

[00:16:26] Yeah.

[00:16:27] I mean, I guess like the way I look at everything, like everything for me is an equity calculation.

[00:16:33] It's like, OK, this happens X percent of the time.

[00:16:35] This happens Y percent of the time and then go from there.

[00:16:37] So I kind of approach my life in a similar manner.

[00:16:42] Does it always work?

[00:16:44] No, but I think it has a better success rate than it would otherwise.

[00:16:49] Like if you're looking at like an instance, it's like, OK, we're going to make our flight 90 percent of the time if we do this.

[00:16:54] You're going to miss your flight 10 percent of the time if you do this.

[00:16:56] And then like you just kind of think about what happens, you know, and it's like.

[00:17:01] Has that become a subconscious thing that you do now?

[00:17:03] Yeah. I mean, it's just how I kind of even before poker, it's just the way I've kind of thought about things.

[00:17:09] So do you have to have a natural predisposition to that type of thinking in order to be a successful poker player?

[00:17:18] Absolutely not. I do think that like in order to truly be elite, you know, I always I personally think that the skills you need are like maybe some pattern recognition, work ethic and intelligence.

[00:17:32] But overall, you know, with the tools that are available nowadays, I think anyone could be like pretty damn good at poker.

[00:17:40] But like when we were coming up, it was more just like trial and error.

[00:17:43] Like we were out in the arena trying stuff and it's like, oh, this works. Let's try it again.

[00:17:46] Oh, this keeps working. I'm going to do it for a while.

[00:17:48] And like in order to be great at anything, you have to like immerse yourself in it.

[00:17:52] And so, you know, back when all I did was play poker, it was so easy to recognize the patterns of what was working and what wasn't.

[00:18:01] How do you talk to me like I'm five years old? How do you start to recommend patterns and how people behave?

[00:18:07] Because I feel like you can apply that in any arena in your life.

[00:18:11] I wasn't even talking about behavior. I was talking about like, OK, this is a situation where your opponents never bluffing.

[00:18:18] So you should fold or this is a situation where a bluff is generally successful.

[00:18:22] And so like knowing whether you should try to win the pot or not.

[00:18:28] That has been something.

[00:18:29] But as far as like pattern recognition, like the reason that I gravitated towards live poker so much is I actually truly enjoy live tells.

[00:18:38] Like the ability to look at your opponent and say, is he bluffing or not?

[00:18:42] Like, does he have a good hand or not? And so how do you do a rat?

[00:18:48] It's something that I have studied. But again, it was a lot of trial and error.

[00:18:51] Like I used to call river bets just to, you know, I justify making a bad call.

[00:18:56] And then afterwards, I'd be like, oh, OK, I should have known he was strong because of this.

[00:18:59] And then, you know, after years and years of making mistakes, I finally was able to kind of put it all together, I guess you can say.

[00:19:06] And I actually created a live tells course for my company, but I never released it because I was afraid that it would make the game so much tougher.

[00:19:13] So like I just have it sitting there and it's this asset if I ever want to release it.

[00:19:18] But I'm always on the fence. I go back and forth all the time.

[00:19:20] So can you think back to a moment in your career where you just had a really crappy tournament, really crappy game that's just really messed you up?

[00:19:32] And like what how did you recover from that?

[00:19:35] And I ask that because, again, I've had these conversations now with several poker players who talked about the ability to just this happened.

[00:19:43] I got to move on. And I'm fascinated by that.

[00:19:46] That is that way of thinking, because if you can apply that into your daily life.

[00:19:50] All of life's curveballs, you're able to just go this happened.

[00:19:54] Now I have to develop a path forward.

[00:19:59] Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest thing is not to feel like personally attacked, like just because it hurt.

[00:20:03] You know, maybe you got unlucky or you made a mistake and you're out of the tournament or lost a lot of money in cash games.

[00:20:09] Like you're not personally attacked. Right. It's just like a result of what happened.

[00:20:12] And so I think that in daily life, a lot of the times where we get upset or flustered or unable to process correctly, it's because we're using the emotional side of our brain instead of the logical side of our brain.

[00:20:24] This is the moment you've all been waiting for.

[00:20:30] I just dragged the pot like a champ. Game on.

[00:20:34] Look at the camera, the lights and the action.

[00:20:36] Look at the way that we're taking advantage.

[00:20:40] Come on!

[00:20:41] Look at the baby.

[00:20:42] I see the look and you look a surprise.

[00:20:46] Oh my God!

[00:20:46] That's just a part of the game.

[00:20:48] Uh-huh.

[00:20:48] You gotta look for the pride.

[00:20:51] That was one for the cameras, wasn't it?

[00:20:54] Look at the way that we're in it.

[00:20:56] I like your style, eh?

[00:20:59] I win!

[00:21:19] If I was starting out today and I wanted to become a poker player, what advice would you give me?

[00:21:26] Sign up for chip leader coaching.

[00:21:29] I mean, I would first like dial my preflop ranges.

[00:21:33] I mean, no, it's not even close.

[00:21:35] If you wanted to get into tournaments, we're the best option.

[00:21:37] There's a lot of fantastic other options out there for other aspects of the game.

[00:21:41] Yeah.

[00:21:43] I would first settle my preflop ranges.

[00:21:46] You know, like every hand starts before the flop and then the decision tree is pretty simple.

[00:21:51] You can call folder rays, a few different sizes on the rays.

[00:21:55] And after that, then there's so many different combinations of flops that can happen and turns.

[00:22:01] And so the game gets considerably more complex.

[00:22:03] And so starting with the baseline is definitely important.

[00:22:09] And so can you talk to me about chip leader coaching?

[00:22:14] When I looked it up, it talked about how, you know, you wanted to help the next generation of young poker players sort of develop and hone their game and their skill set.

[00:22:23] Why was that important to you?

[00:22:25] Was this just an entrepreneurial venture, which is also totally okay?

[00:22:29] Or was there sort of a broader purpose behind doing it?

[00:22:34] Definitely a broader purpose.

[00:22:35] I actually always wanted to be a math teacher.

[00:22:38] And I had two incredibly influential math teachers in my life.

[00:22:41] One in high school who, Miss Gleason always had us like over to her house and, you know, cooked for us like once a week and did math and stuff.

[00:22:49] And then one in college who I was already playing poker and I had run up maybe like 50 grand from, you know, $500 deposit.

[00:22:59] And my math professor, and this was senior year of high school with the, or senior year of college with a semester left.

[00:23:03] He's like, wait, you're good at this.

[00:23:05] You enjoy it and you make good money out of it.

[00:23:06] He's like, why are you still here?

[00:23:09] And he's like, you can always come back to school.

[00:23:12] He's like, you don't even like this.

[00:23:14] I'm like, yeah, correct.

[00:23:15] And like, I kind of already knew that I wanted to pursue the profession.

[00:23:21] But that was like, gave me the courage I needed to do so.

[00:23:24] So did you end up finishing school?

[00:23:26] No.

[00:23:26] I'm so sure you dropped out.

[00:23:28] What were you, what were you rendering?

[00:23:30] Architectural engineering.

[00:23:30] Okay.

[00:23:31] And it was just awful too.

[00:23:32] There was like four routes you can go in architectural engineering.

[00:23:35] It's like HVAC, heating, ventilation, air conditioning, lighting, structural design and construction management.

[00:23:40] And I was like, wow, like all of these just sound terrible.

[00:23:42] And like, it was ironically the...

[00:23:44] Definitely not as exciting as like poker.

[00:23:46] Yeah.

[00:23:46] And I was like, this just doesn't sound appealing to me at all.

[00:23:50] And even like freshman year, I remember like having this like massive anxiety where I was like, I don't know if this is the right thing for me.

[00:23:57] Like it was easy.

[00:23:58] Um, so I just continued to like go down the path and you know, I got 3.6 or 3.7 GPA out through school and without even really trying while playing poker and you know, doing a ton of intra-wural activities.

[00:24:11] And yeah, eventually it was just decided enough's enough.

[00:24:14] So how did you explain to your parents that you were going to forego?

[00:24:20] Cause you said this was your senior year.

[00:24:21] Yeah.

[00:24:22] So like you're pretty much almost done.

[00:24:24] Yeah.

[00:24:24] And you worked up to this point and you just said, screw it.

[00:24:27] I'm out.

[00:24:28] I'm going to go pursue playing poker, which for all intents and purposes is not a very stable job unless you're wildly successful.

[00:24:35] But for the most...

[00:24:36] I will say back in the day, it was like easy to win.

[00:24:38] I mean, I was just winning week after week after week.

[00:24:40] Okay.

[00:24:41] Yeah.

[00:24:41] So like that, add a little bit of help.

[00:24:43] Yeah.

[00:24:44] Um, but so my parents aren't together.

[00:24:47] I haven't been forever.

[00:24:48] Um, and my dad was like incredibly, uh, incredibly supportive.

[00:24:53] He was like, all right, great.

[00:24:54] Like go for it.

[00:24:55] Um, my mom, stepdad definitely wanted me to finish, but we're also supportive at the same time.

[00:25:01] And, uh, I think I like always had the intention of going back and getting a degree in something else, something that may be interested me more, but the way the world evolves with YouTube and free content and stuff like that, I'm able to learn all kinds of different stuff.

[00:25:15] And I think that that's, you know, definitely a character trait I'd like to instill in my child is to constantly like be learning.

[00:25:24] There's just so much good stuff out there.

[00:25:27] Speaking of learning, you referenced Ms. Gleason.

[00:25:30] What was it about her that made her so influential for you?

[00:25:34] Just that she like genuinely cared about us as a teacher, like to have us over to her house and, you know, to cook for us and make sure that everyone understood everything.

[00:25:43] And like, even though understanding and math was definitely something I didn't have trouble with.

[00:25:51] Um, she just like took an interest in me and something that always stood out to me.

[00:25:55] It was like, I could even in high school, I can just like write the answers and like on all of the tests and the test said show your work.

[00:26:02] So she just gives me a zero.

[00:26:04] And so I was like, all right, cool.

[00:26:06] Like, and then there was like, I remember the next test.

[00:26:08] I showed my work and then wrote like 69 instead of 96, like some just like minor dyslexia thing.

[00:26:15] But she gave me credit because I showed my work.

[00:26:16] And it was just like kind of interesting.

[00:26:20] What's the lesson to learn?

[00:26:24] Follow the teachers and instructions.

[00:26:29] Even then, like I didn't get the lesson.

[00:26:31] I'm not so sure.

[00:26:32] Like I haven't really thought about it now, even in a long time, actually, but I'm not sure I really see the lessons still.

[00:26:38] Like the logic is that like, as you continue in math, you won't be able to do stuff in your head, which is true to an extent, but.

[00:26:48] This gets too complex.

[00:26:50] Yeah.

[00:26:50] Like when you get into like derivatives and just a lot of different stuff.

[00:26:55] Is there, I spoke to someone recently that said that they make notes at the table.

[00:27:00] I mean, they did it.

[00:27:01] One person's had it to me recently yesterday, actually, about how they do that for their social media stuff.

[00:27:06] But I've had a conversation with another poker player who said that they make little notes for themselves just to keep track of things.

[00:27:12] Is that something you would, you've done ever would do?

[00:27:16] Something I do do.

[00:27:17] You do? Okay.

[00:27:17] Yeah. So in two different regards.

[00:27:20] So, the Art Ship Leader AI product, one of the weekly deliverables we give to the subscribers is like a quiz where we put it in the community.

[00:27:27] They discuss it for five days and then we give the answer to the hand.

[00:27:31] And so I like to make sure to write down hands that I think are interesting that they could learn from.

[00:27:36] And then the other thing that I'm really good at writing down is like the live tell aspects.

[00:27:41] So I get to a new table and I'm like, oh, I know that David guy.

[00:27:45] Like, let me look at my phone and I'll type his name into my notes and see what comes up.

[00:27:49] And I'll be like, oh, he does that tell.

[00:27:51] So it's like, I immediately will remember like, okay, he does this way strong and this way is weak.

[00:27:56] What's an example?

[00:27:57] Oh, man. I don't want to give it.

[00:28:04] Yeah, I don't want to give too much examples on how specific.

[00:28:07] Make someone up.

[00:28:08] Well, like, you know, some people like to wait three seconds and check when they miss the flop in their check folding and they like to check right away when they have a good hand.

[00:28:19] So like even length of time between making decisions.

[00:28:23] Yeah. And sometimes it's more overt stuff.

[00:28:25] But, you know, think about like if I have a bad hand and I know he missed, I can just bet really big and make sure he doesn't re bluff me.

[00:28:31] But if I have a great hand and I know that they hit the flop, you can just start with a really big bet size for value.

[00:28:36] And so there's like, or maybe you want to bet small to induce a bluff raise, you know, so there's a lot of different routes that you can take when you're using web tools properly.

[00:28:45] And so having that extra data is very important.

[00:28:49] So much strategy that goes into it.

[00:28:51] Yeah.

[00:28:52] Again, I have to ask, like, how do you, how are you keeping all of that sort of happening in real time?

[00:28:58] Like you're not sitting in front of a computer going, this was the play.

[00:29:01] This was the hand.

[00:29:01] Now I'm going to take my time to sort of write out my thoughts.

[00:29:04] You're kind of processing on the fly.

[00:29:06] Yeah, I think that I'm lucky to have so much experience in poker that like from a theoretical perspective, a lot of my decisions are just automatic.

[00:29:15] It's like, OK, this flop, like I raised the big blind call.

[00:29:18] It comes a seven deuce.

[00:29:19] Like, here's the sizes I choose from.

[00:29:21] And then I'll take the live tail element to help me choose which path to take.

[00:29:27] Is there, are you a positive person?

[00:29:30] Very.

[00:29:32] I'm not.

[00:29:33] OK, so every person I've spoken to so far talks about how they're, they have a very positive outlook.

[00:29:40] What I'm trying to understand what it is about poker players that they all seem to come with this sort of default positive outlook online.

[00:29:48] That is not true.

[00:29:49] OK, there's a lot of like pessimistic.

[00:29:52] Oh, I run so bad.

[00:29:53] Whoa is me.

[00:29:54] Well, maybe not like the average player, but like the ones who've done well seem to have that outlook.

[00:29:59] Maybe we're just grateful.

[00:30:00] I'm not sure.

[00:30:02] Is there OK?

[00:30:02] How does your positive outlook operate?

[00:30:05] Is it just you're naturally inclined to look at the positives in a situation or do you consciously make an effort to go?

[00:30:12] Yes, this sucks, but I'm going to peel this piece out and go.

[00:30:16] This is the silver lining.

[00:30:19] I think framing like the finding of silver linings like is really important to having a positive outlook.

[00:30:27] But I think I've just like always had it like I've always had this like.

[00:30:31] I don't know what I'm going to do with my life, but it's going to work out.

[00:30:34] And then I end up like poker like, oh, the company needs someone to do this.

[00:30:38] And then a month later, someone reaches out, reaches out to me.

[00:30:40] It's like, hey, would you like help with this?

[00:30:41] I'm like, oh, what do you know?

[00:30:42] That's exactly what I needed.

[00:30:43] And like that's happened like three times with the company and everything always just kind of works out to me.

[00:30:49] Yeah.

[00:30:51] So you played in the tournament.

[00:30:54] You played in two tournaments so far.

[00:30:55] You're playing the third.

[00:30:59] How what's your thinking going into the third one?

[00:31:02] If the first two weren't as successful.

[00:31:05] I walk into it with like a level of confidence.

[00:31:08] So I know that I have every tool in the toolbox to actually make this work for me.

[00:31:13] Or are you sort of adjusting on the fly?

[00:31:16] I think like being honest with yourself is like really important in poker, whether it's about your range in a certain spot or, you know, I'll be honest, like I could have played better while I've been here.

[00:31:28] So in what sense?

[00:31:31] Maybe making a few folds or not making a couple of bluffs that I did that cost me some big pots.

[00:31:36] Like, I don't think that I should have been in for five bullets.

[00:31:39] I probably could have saved 10 or 15 grand there.

[00:31:45] The 25K, I definitely could have played better.

[00:31:50] I called down in a spot that I probably should have found a fold at some point and lost a lot of chips and, you know, was short stacked and ended up busting out because of it.

[00:31:58] Like everything has compounding effects.

[00:32:00] And so for me, it's like I want to do some self-reflection and look at what kind of mistakes I made and why.

[00:32:06] Was I overly caffeinated?

[00:32:08] Was I too frazzled?

[00:32:09] Was I talked too much at the table?

[00:32:10] You know, there's all these different things that can impact the ability to play your best.

[00:32:15] And I'll, you know, there's times where when I'm in the zone, I think I'm one of the best players in the world.

[00:32:20] But there's times where I'm not in the zone and I'm definitely losing money in the event.

[00:32:25] So, you know, it's very polarizing for me.

[00:32:28] So I think like self-reflection, maybe a little bit of meditation beforehand would help.

[00:32:34] Is there a piece of advice you would give to a poker player who, let's say, looks up to what you've done and they may have like they're struggling right now.

[00:32:46] They're trying to get to that next stage in their career.

[00:32:50] Hmm.

[00:32:51] I would say find a way to surround yourself with the people that are where you want to be, you know, and that's what we did in Nashville when they moved there two years ago is we, we joined this like small social club and there were just tons of incredibly successful people in all walks of life.

[00:33:07] And, you know, it's, it's great for me. I have multiple mentors that give me advice on, you know, my business. They look under the hood and help me with that. They give us investing advice and, and just always surrounding yourself.

[00:33:21] You know, if you're the smartest person in your friend group, you're not going to make it. And I think that that's just a fact of life.

[00:33:28] You talked before we started recording, you talked about a, can we call it a men's retreat?

[00:33:34] Yeah.

[00:33:34] So you went on a men's retreat in the amount of people.

[00:33:38] No, the brand is Amalfi.

[00:33:40] Oh, the brand is Amalfi.

[00:33:41] Yeah. So the very first one was in Aspen and it was, uh, three or four weeks ago.

[00:33:45] Okay. How was that?

[00:33:47] It was incredible. So it was like a men's retreat.

[00:33:50] Um, I would say maybe 50% networking, you know, tons of other 30 somethings, very successful people.

[00:33:58] Um, like Sahil Bloom spoke about, you know, one of the things that really resonated with me was that like 10 year plans are bullshit.

[00:34:08] And that, you know, it's one thing to have a 10 year plan, but you never know what curveballs life's going to throw you.

[00:34:13] And in order to like, you know, you can have like a 10 year goal or something, but what are you going to do today to take that step in the right direction?

[00:34:20] And so that resonated a lot. There was another guy named Dan Churchill that was kind of a famous YouTube chef, but also runs like a hundred mile races at altitude the day before the thing started.

[00:34:33] Yeah. So these are just like incredibly impressive individuals and talking about, you know, gut health and importance of fiber.

[00:34:39] And it's the macro that people don't, you know, so it was, you know, so much stuff about whether it's mindset, personal optimization, health and networking, but there was just so much really good stuff that I got out of it.

[00:34:50] And we even like broke into groups and talked about what's an area of life that you want to improve upon.

[00:34:56] And then we have accountability and just found it incredibly beneficial.

[00:35:01] What was your area?

[00:35:07] Being more present with my family.

[00:35:10] Yeah. And like, it's particularly difficult as an entrepreneur because when someone's working on your company and they ask you a question, it's like, I feel this urge to like, need to respond to them.

[00:35:21] So they can keep working right and growing the company.

[00:35:24] And so for me, it's like one of the solutions that I've found is when I leave the office and it's family time, it's family time.

[00:35:31] And I'll put my phone on doing the sterile, I'll put it away and try not to check it.

[00:35:35] I'm still not perfect by any means at it, but it's something I'm steadily improving on.

[00:35:39] And there's a part of you that's constantly like thinking a subconscious part of you that's thinking about either what you have to do or who's reached out to you that you still have to get back to and all those things.

[00:35:49] And I admittedly struggle with that being present because my mind is constantly racing about all the different things that I'm working on and what I need to do.

[00:35:56] And I find it hard to immediately focus.

[00:35:59] And truthfully, the only thing that has been successful for me so far has been literally not being in the same room as my phone.

[00:36:05] Yeah, I think that's huge.

[00:36:07] And it's wild that this little device has so much control.

[00:36:11] Speaking of the device with control, what do you think the biggest issue today for men's health is?

[00:36:17] That's a great question. I think there's a ton of them.

[00:36:20] I think the biggest one is.

[00:36:25] I had to pick the biggest.

[00:36:27] You can do top three.

[00:36:28] Top three.

[00:36:29] I think addiction is one, but addiction to a number like it could be addiction to alcohol, drugs, your phone, porn, could be any of those things.

[00:36:38] Another one is this idea that men should not be able to have conversations or talk about whatever been ailing them or their demons that are residing inside of them, which we all know have existed for so long.

[00:36:51] I think the pandemic has kind of opened the door on that.

[00:36:53] And like I said, everything being stripped away and then suddenly you're sitting in isolation and you go, oh, all the things that I've been feeling and distracting myself with, they're all coming to the surface right now.

[00:37:04] And then once they've boiled to the surface and you're like, oh, shit, this is what this is.

[00:37:09] And we've now gone back to whatever normal is, except Pandora box has been opened.

[00:37:14] So I think that's another big one.

[00:37:19] And I think it's this false reality that we're chasing.

[00:37:24] I think we're constantly chasing this idea that to be a successful man, you have to drive the Bugatti.

[00:37:32] You have to have a million bucks in the account.

[00:37:34] You have to be living on an island and that anything short of any of those things is failure.

[00:37:39] That's something that I struggle with internally a lot.

[00:37:41] And something I actually talked with my little subgroup at the Amalfi retreat was like, I'm always torn of like, should I just be content with what I have?

[00:37:49] Like, you know, pretty well off.

[00:37:52] I have a wife, a kid, you know, like my life's pretty darn good.

[00:37:56] Yeah.

[00:37:57] But then like part of me is like, should I just be content or do I always want to constantly strive for more and more?

[00:38:02] And so it's always weird for me to find this balance between wanting to continue to grow personally, professionally, and then also just like be content with family and what we have.

[00:38:14] And so where are you in that balancing act?

[00:38:18] I think that like a very common trait with successful people is that they're not content.

[00:38:25] You know, like everyone's driven to continue to build something or achieve something.

[00:38:30] And then...

[00:38:31] At what cost?

[00:38:33] Yeah.

[00:38:34] Like I often wonder if, and I'm happy, don't get me wrong before I say this, but I often wonder if the person who's working a normal nine to five that has their little boat and they go out on the weekends with their friend and they have their family and they're, you know, never going to have a million dollars.

[00:38:49] Like they're probably happier than a lot of us.

[00:38:52] Yeah.

[00:38:52] Cause they're just content.

[00:38:53] And like, I envy that sometimes.

[00:38:55] Oh, I totally.

[00:38:56] Yeah.

[00:38:57] I have this constant need to strive for more.

[00:39:00] I want, I want to grow.

[00:39:01] I want to build.

[00:39:02] I want to do this, this, this, and this.

[00:39:04] I did a partnership recently with Movember.

[00:39:06] And if you asked me a few years ago to put out a list of organizations, I'd want to work with Movember was like right up there in the health charity.

[00:39:14] Okay.

[00:39:14] Thank you.

[00:39:14] Um, and after the minute I like signed the deal, worked on the partnership, I was immediately now thinking about the next thing.

[00:39:22] I wasn't even thinking about it anymore.

[00:39:24] You didn't give yourself like a chance to be like happy about it.

[00:39:26] I'm like, yeah, I get it.

[00:39:27] I realized that after I did the whole thing that I'm just sitting there and going, wow, I just did that.

[00:39:32] But I do, I don't feel anything about it.

[00:39:35] It's so rare that I like just sit there and I'm like, wow, proud of like how that World Series went around.

[00:39:40] Like how my life is like, it's just, yeah, I don't do that.

[00:39:43] It's a, it's this never ending quest.

[00:39:44] And I think the challenge with it is again, we're surrounded as men by a lot of, again, this fake reality of you constantly have to be achieving more.

[00:39:52] My, the algorithms on my social media feeds know me.

[00:39:56] They know that that's what I'm looking for.

[00:39:57] Yeah.

[00:39:58] And so it's constantly reinforcing this idea that Joe and James and Adam are doing 10 times better than I am.

[00:40:04] And if I'm not doing as good as them at minimum, I've somehow failed despite the row of successes I've achieved in the last number of years.

[00:40:11] And it's just constant like, okay, Samir, you gotta take a moment.

[00:40:14] You gotta recalibrate, take a breath and go, okay, here are all the different things that you've achieved that you never would have thought you ever would have done.

[00:40:23] Mm hmm.

[00:40:24] Okay.

[00:40:25] Okay.

[00:40:25] Things aren't what you think they are.

[00:40:27] And it's like just taking that step back and going, okay.

[00:40:31] Now there's nothing wrong with having goals and wanting to achieve more.

[00:40:36] The challenge becomes to your point is how do you balance that with the other, the other demands of your life, the other pillars of your life, your family, your health, your interests, your hobbies, your businesses.

[00:40:47] There's only so much time and so much of you that can go around.

[00:40:50] So it's that constant.

[00:40:52] It's a, you're, you're constantly renegotiating how much time you're allocating to things.

[00:40:57] Yeah.

[00:40:58] And it's incredibly difficult.

[00:41:00] Yeah.

[00:41:00] I struggle with it.

[00:41:02] Yeah.

[00:41:02] I mean, I think everyone does.

[00:41:03] Yeah.

[00:41:04] So I want to ask you a couple more questions here.

[00:41:09] Um, what is it about poker?

[00:41:12] Because this is obviously a passion of yours.

[00:41:15] We're talking about pillars in your life.

[00:41:16] This one's a pillar in your life.

[00:41:18] Yeah.

[00:41:18] What is it about poker that's driven you to want to do it for so long?

[00:41:22] Because you also strike me as the kind of person that once you've achieved something, you, you're kind of already looking at what's the next thing.

[00:41:28] Um, it is definitely a pillar, but lately I've been wondering, like, is there a next step?

[00:41:33] And the answer, like in the short term is no.

[00:41:36] Like I have a company that's, you know, finally starting to achieve some success like it.

[00:41:41] And it requires me to, you know, be present in the company.

[00:41:44] It's not autonomous yet.

[00:41:47] But I always do kind of wonder like what the future holds, um, if there's going to be other stuff, but kind of back to your question.

[00:41:53] Um, I was attracted to poker initially because you can promote and demote yourself.

[00:41:58] And, you know, early in my career, it's like, okay, I made more money.

[00:42:00] I can play higher stakes to potentially make more money.

[00:42:03] And if it doesn't go well, you down in stakes, you give yourself a promotion and you play lower stakes.

[00:42:09] And, you know, before I found my wife, Emily, and, and had a kid, like I used to risk ridiculous percentages of my bankroll trying to play higher and higher stakes.

[00:42:18] And, you know, I remember there was a time where I lost, I had like a million dollars and I lost like 550k in one 24 hour session.

[00:42:26] And man, I was just like, oh, I couldn't breathe.

[00:42:29] I was just dead.

[00:42:30] It hurts to listen to that.

[00:42:32] Um, but I think like now, I, you know how much better bankroll management.

[00:42:38] Like I realized that I can travel around and play this like 5k buy in level and, and even some of the high rollers.

[00:42:43] And I play a lot of the high rollers now, but like selling action and being responsible with my bankroll and making sure that, you know, you never go broke.

[00:42:51] And the family has plenty of money.

[00:42:52] And it's like, you don't have to race to $20 million to, to be successful in this game.

[00:42:58] And I can have like a very good life with plenty of prosperity without having a hundred percent of myself and a hundred K buy in, you know, or, and for two bullets and your minus 300 on your own trip, you know, it can start, start to hurt a little bit.

[00:43:10] Yeah.

[00:43:11] Um, okay.

[00:43:12] I got one more question for you.

[00:43:13] Yeah.

[00:43:15] Yeah.

[00:43:16] It's, I want you to think back to the chance that existed when you felt at your lowest because of the addiction.

[00:43:26] Okay.

[00:43:27] What was the piece of advice you needed to share that you never got?

[00:43:32] Some people are just built different.

[00:43:35] You know, I, even when I was like early in my sobriety and I was holding on to the, you know,

[00:43:41] to this illusion that if I figured out my child and trauma, that I'd be able to drink normal.

[00:43:46] And that would be like a social thing for me.

[00:43:48] And then once I let go of that illusion and was able to realize that, nope, I'm just different and that's okay.

[00:43:56] Um, I was able to get sober relatively easily, actually.

[00:44:00] You know, I struggled with it for probably a year and a half before it stuck.

[00:44:04] And, uh, but once I let go of that delusion and illusion, um, it's, it's been a pretty easy two and a half years.

[00:44:12] So like just accepting that fact.

[00:44:14] Yeah.

[00:44:15] Well, Chance, you definitely are different, but you're incredible in many different ways.

[00:44:18] So thanks.

[00:44:19] Thank you so much for making time with me today.

[00:44:21] My pleasure.

[00:44:21] Amazing.

[00:44:22] It was really good to meet you.

[00:44:22] You too.

[00:44:23] Thank you so much.

[00:44:24] Thank you so much, everybody.

[00:44:25] From Tony and Farron,-

[00:44:25] Andreas Maxfield.

[00:44:25] Thank you.