The Secret Recipe to Building A Successful Restaurant | Eric Chong Ep.124 - Gent's Talk

[00:00:00] MasterChef Canada.

[00:00:01] You were 21 years old when you won it?

[00:00:02] Yeah.

[00:00:03] I had to quit my job for it because it's a six-week film schedule, but instantaneous, I know.

[00:00:08] If I get sent home now, your dreams are crushed in that moment.

[00:00:13] Eric Chong is a culinary trailblazer, making history as one of the youngest winners of MasterChef Canada.

[00:00:18] His victory sparked a transformative journey across Asia.

[00:00:21] And the multi-restaurant owner was named Asian Restaurateur of the Year in 2019.

[00:00:26] My first time working in a restaurant was a two Michelin-style restaurant.

[00:00:30] What exactly has to happen for a restaurant to require a Michelin rating?

[00:00:35] The first challenge is this thing about Gordon Ramsay yelling at people in the kitchen.

[00:00:39] That just doesn't work.

[00:00:40] All of the pressures that come with being in a kitchen, they're not for everybody.

[00:00:44] The challenging thing is that there's always this imposter syndrome.

[00:00:48] Like, people view me as, you know, MasterChef Canada winner that was a home cook.

[00:00:53] You're fighting an uphill battle of gaining other people's respect.

[00:00:57] When we first opened R&D, I wasn't the head chef of my own restaurant.

[00:01:00] I was the sous chef.

[00:01:02] You aren't always able to spend as much time with your loved ones as you would like.

[00:01:06] The amount of guilt I feel, it needs to be worth it.

[00:01:09] You're basically fasting today for the most part.

[00:01:28] But not by choice.

[00:01:30] Yeah, I guess you can call it fasting.

[00:01:32] I guess technically it is fasting, but I don't really consider that I just live my life and I just drink water.

[00:01:37] Like, I don't always have time to eat a full meal.

[00:01:39] Right. And so it's not by design.

[00:01:40] It's just by the fact that your schedule is so crazy busy.

[00:01:43] Yeah.

[00:01:44] Like, sometimes if there's bananas at home, I'll eat a banana.

[00:01:47] That's very easy.

[00:01:48] I can grab a banana, I can eat it, or a protein bar.

[00:01:50] But yeah, I'm all at protein bars now.

[00:01:53] Okay.

[00:01:53] Well, for a man that's on the go, I'm thankful that you've made some time to have this conversation with me, Eric.

[00:01:59] I'm really excited to chat with you.

[00:02:01] This is a very special episode.

[00:02:04] None of this happens, obviously, without our friends at Angel's Envy for helping us to put this together.

[00:02:10] So Eric, I really wanted to chat with you because you're doing some really, really cool things right now.

[00:02:15] You were one of the youngest winners of MasterChef Canada.

[00:02:18] Congrats on that, by the way.

[00:02:19] Thank you.

[00:02:20] I think it was 21 years old when you won it.

[00:02:22] Yeah.

[00:02:22] Geez.

[00:02:23] How old are you now?

[00:02:23] I'm 32.

[00:02:25] Okay.

[00:02:25] Okay.

[00:02:25] So I'm going to ask you about the difference between 21-year-old Eric and 32-year-old Eric.

[00:02:31] But you have...

[00:02:33] It's funny.

[00:02:33] Before we started rolling, you said you had two and a half restaurants and now it's two.

[00:02:37] What happened to the half?

[00:02:39] I had a contract with a stall called Lil Rebel in the Eaton Center food court.

[00:02:44] Okay.

[00:02:44] It was like the new Queen's Cross food hall.

[00:02:46] It was just like a small contract and then it closed mid-September, I believe.

[00:02:51] It's on a rotating stall.

[00:02:52] So now I believe it's a barbecue joint, probably Barks or...

[00:02:57] Actually, don't quote me.

[00:02:58] I don't know who it is, but some barbecue joint replaced me.

[00:03:01] Something else.

[00:03:01] Okay.

[00:03:03] So you started off wanting to become a chemical engineer.

[00:03:11] Well...

[00:03:11] I wouldn't say I wanted to become a chemical engineer.

[00:03:14] I would say in Asian culture, you're kind of pinholed into, you know, a specific career path.

[00:03:23] Because obviously as a parent, they want the path that will lead you to the most success, most likely success.

[00:03:28] And that is usually like a doctor, an engineer, a lawyer, something that's very like prestigious, something that parents can brag to their friends about.

[00:03:35] Like, hey, my kid's a doctor, my kid's an engineer.

[00:03:38] So my parents gave me that choice and I was horrible at biology.

[00:03:41] So doctor was out of the question.

[00:03:44] Law school wasn't really my thing, like really arguing with people and kind of debating didn't really seem like my forte either.

[00:03:51] So I went into engineering.

[00:03:53] And then fortunately, I still didn't really know which type of engineer I wanted to do.

[00:03:57] But when I applied to McMaster, it was the peak of Breaking Bad.

[00:04:02] At that time, it was like Breaking Bad was booming.

[00:04:04] And I was like, man, this is so cool.

[00:04:05] Like working in a lab, like you can be so cool being a chemist.

[00:04:08] I think I'll go into chemical engineering.

[00:04:10] And then it was totally not what I envisioned.

[00:04:13] And it's just, yeah, it really fell out of love of chemical engineering.

[00:04:18] Wow.

[00:04:18] I think, you know, it's funny.

[00:04:20] I've been doing this podcast now just over two years.

[00:04:22] And I think this is the first time there's been a reference to Breaking Bad.

[00:04:24] Thank you for doing that.

[00:04:26] My pleasure.

[00:04:27] So what happened after that?

[00:04:28] How did you go from being a student in chemical engineering?

[00:04:31] Did you graduate?

[00:04:32] Yep.

[00:04:34] Yeah.

[00:04:35] At what point did you just decide, I'm not going to pursue the thing I just spent the

[00:04:39] last four years, five years doing and decide to go the culinary route?

[00:04:46] So I never like really wanted to do it, but I was doing it because, you know, I don't think

[00:04:50] a lot of kids like to go to school, first of all.

[00:04:52] So like I was just one of them.

[00:04:53] Like I did it because that was the norm to do.

[00:04:55] I didn't like it either.

[00:04:57] So after I graduated, I started working at a place called Neck Cycle Plastics where they

[00:05:02] pelletize HDP and LDP like low density polyethylene and high density polyethylene.

[00:05:07] Even like talking about that sounds boring.

[00:05:09] I don't want to bat mouth the company.

[00:05:11] No, it's a great company.

[00:05:11] Fantastic company.

[00:05:12] But it just wasn't for me.

[00:05:13] I was like falling asleep at the desk, very boring, not what I envisioned and definitely

[00:05:17] not something I want to do for the rest of my life, especially being in that field.

[00:05:22] So I really had this misconception of breaking bad.

[00:05:26] I know it sounds so bad, but like I've pictured myself in like a laboratory working with test

[00:05:30] tubes doing like a bunch of cool chemistry stuff.

[00:05:33] But that's what chemists do.

[00:05:34] Chemists work with test tubes.

[00:05:36] Chemical engineers work with reactors.

[00:05:37] So like all we do is we spend time on in front of a computer.

[00:05:41] We program some stuff and we just run simulators.

[00:05:44] Like it's very, very boring.

[00:05:46] And growing up, I always loved to cook.

[00:05:48] I was like 200 pounds when I was a kid.

[00:05:50] I love to eat.

[00:05:51] My grandfather was a self-taught chef.

[00:05:53] And even he was like, don't do it, man.

[00:05:55] It's a bad industry.

[00:05:56] Don't do it.

[00:05:56] And I was like, oh, but I love cooking.

[00:05:58] And then my as a family, we always watched MasterChef Canada or MasterChef US together.

[00:06:04] And then that year after I graduated, like there was a posting like, hey, MasterChef is

[00:06:09] coming to Canada.

[00:06:10] And I was like, hey, like mom and dad, can I can I apply?

[00:06:13] They're like, yeah, whatever.

[00:06:13] You're probably not gonna win anyways.

[00:06:14] Like, sure.

[00:06:15] Get out of your system.

[00:06:16] And then, yeah, I was fortunate enough.

[00:06:18] I had to quit my job for it because it's a six week film schedule.

[00:06:22] But it's hard commitment.

[00:06:24] Yeah.

[00:06:25] To be like, I'm gonna quit a full time job with regular pay to pursue a contest.

[00:06:29] Yeah, I know.

[00:06:30] That was an uphill battle for sure.

[00:06:32] Like 100 percent, 1000 percent.

[00:06:34] If I didn't win, I would not be a chef to this day because I wouldn't have my parents

[00:06:38] support and like in Asian culture, I think in a lot of cultures, though, but like family

[00:06:42] is super important.

[00:06:43] Like you never want to break that bond.

[00:06:45] And I wouldn't be where I am today without like my dad's support, especially like financial

[00:06:50] and and business support.

[00:06:52] Hmm.

[00:06:52] So walk me through the the actual contest itself.

[00:06:56] You know, from the outside watching it, a lot of people will watch that show or reality

[00:07:01] shows in general and just go, this all looks very, you know, put together.

[00:07:05] But from conversations I've had with different individuals who've performed on these various

[00:07:12] shows from Big Brother to now MasterChef Canada, you know, there's a lot of work that goes into

[00:07:18] it just to keep yourself sort of focused and ready to go mentally every time you sort of

[00:07:23] approach a new contest or because really and truly to your point, if you don't win, you

[00:07:27] might not have pursued a career in the culinary space.

[00:07:30] Mm hmm. Yeah. Like, honestly, looking back, it was crazy because I was like a whole other person

[00:07:36] like this is over 10 years ago. So like even to this day, when I post videos on YouTube,

[00:07:42] everybody still refers to like, oh, man, this kid looks like the sad face because I always had the

[00:07:47] sad face during the show.

[00:07:49] It was like very anxious, like anxiety inducing because there's so much pressure.

[00:07:52] It's like if I don't if I get sent home now, your dreams are crushed in that moment.

[00:07:57] And I don't think a lot of people really fathom or understand that amount of pressure where it's like

[00:08:02] instantaneous. I know if I don't win this, like my dreams are over.

[00:08:06] Um, so that amount of pressure really fueled me to push myself and really always strive to be the best in the competition.

[00:08:13] So people are like, oh, this guy's always so frantic running.

[00:08:16] But like, I'm I view it as I'm trying to save save time.

[00:08:20] Like people would walk around in the kitchen.

[00:08:21] I'm like, dude, that makes no sense. You have one hour to make a dish.

[00:08:24] Of course, I'm going to sprint back and forth to to try and, you know, complete as soon as possible.

[00:08:29] Um, but yeah, a lot goes in behind the scenes.

[00:08:33] Um, like people don't understand that these reality shows are very long shoot days.

[00:08:37] So like our call time is around like 5 a.m.

[00:08:40] You have to do your makeup, your wardrobe, whatever.

[00:08:42] Um, and like going into these shows, if it's your first time doing a show, you don't really know what to expect.

[00:08:47] So like, you know, I don't expect that I'm going to be wearing this same shirt two days in a row because, you know, wardrobe has to look exactly the same.

[00:08:55] So it doesn't matter how sweaty or stained it is.

[00:08:58] One episode of MasterChef essentially takes two to three days to film, but on camera, it looks like one day.

[00:09:03] So like you have to wear the same sweaty clothes and it's like long, long shoots like call time again, 5 a.m.

[00:09:10] You do your makeup. Then you have to do all like the entrances, which takes forever near the beginning of the show.

[00:09:17] There's so many contestants and we call it confessionals like, you know, where it pans to the person that is talking directly to the camera.

[00:09:23] Yeah, that only happens at the end of filming. Right. So if you got if you luckily for me, I didn't get sent home.

[00:09:29] But like people that got sent home would still have to go through the full confessionals as if they haven't gotten home yet.

[00:09:34] So like, you know, after crying after a long day and it's like, OK, so walk me through what was your what went through your head when you looked at the mystery box or what went through your head during this challenge?

[00:09:44] How do you feel about the team? It's like I wouldn't be able to do that, like hold it together and and really be like, oh, yeah, like I was I was really confident I was going to win knowing I were being sent home.

[00:09:53] It's crazy. Jeez, it almost feels mean a little bit.

[00:09:58] Yeah, these people have just gone through some form of emotional turmoil and now you have to be interviewed, you know, the super close up on how you felt about the mystery box.

[00:10:08] Yeah, I mean, it's it's a very it's a very tricky thing to film because like reality, the challenging thing is that doesn't matter how you think you look, the editors can make you look however you want.

[00:10:20] So like, you know, there's there's one super nice lady.

[00:10:24] Her name was Carly on my season and they did her dirty with with like when she was cooking a challenge.

[00:10:29] They just put on the clown music like doom, doom, doom, doom, doom, doom, doom, doom, doom.

[00:10:33] And I'm like, man, that is like that is so mean, you know, been like whatever they have to make TV reality.

[00:10:38] Like obviously whatever pays bills, but like it all comes down to how it's edited.

[00:10:43] You could be the nicest person. They could doesn't matter.

[00:10:46] They find one clip and they'll make you look like the meanest person ever.

[00:10:49] So it really depends on the narrative.

[00:10:52] And like for a cooking show, it's it was also season one.

[00:10:55] So keep this in mind. It's gotten significantly better throughout the years, as I've heard, because I talked to, you know, the judges and the other contestants.

[00:11:02] But season one was like definitely, definitely rough.

[00:11:05] I think everybody was just figuring it out as they go at that point.

[00:11:09] So how what happened after that? You win the contest.

[00:11:12] Now suddenly you've got sort of this spotlight on you here at the time you were the youngest winner of MasterChef Canada.

[00:11:20] So you have the spotlight on you. You've already quit your job.

[00:11:25] What happens next?

[00:11:26] So literally right after winning the finale, like the judge, one of the judges, Alvin Lung came up to me and he's like, hey, I think you have a lot of potential.

[00:11:36] I want to make you my project. I want you to like learn under my wing and I want to fly you out to Hong Kong to work at my mission site restaurant.

[00:11:45] And then I was like, wow, that sounds unreal. Like I idolize this guy.

[00:11:48] He's kind of a similar backstory, like Asian upbringing, self-taught chef, engineering by trade.

[00:11:56] It'd be an honor to work underneath him.

[00:11:58] So I literally maybe after like two weeks, flew out to Asia and started working with him.

[00:12:05] Um, this happened for about four months. And then I, yeah, that was, that was an insane experience.

[00:12:12] Cause my first time working in a restaurant was at the time, a two mission site restaurant.

[00:12:18] That was my first time. Like, wow. So you've never worked in a restaurant prior.

[00:12:21] No, no. So for MasterChef, you have to be self-taught like home cook.

[00:12:25] You can't be a professional.

[00:12:26] Oh, that's a rule. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:12:28] I didn't know that. I thought that they would take any, basically a mixture of people.

[00:12:31] No, no, no. So like for MasterChef in particular, it's everybody, that's why everybody's like a contractor or whatever.

[00:12:36] Right. Right.

[00:12:36] Um, you can't be a professional.

[00:12:39] Um, and that year when I, when I got to Bonervation, um, they got their third star.

[00:12:44] Um, so that was the year when Alvin was like booming three mission star.

[00:12:49] He took me to all these like missions are parties. It was insane.

[00:12:51] Like to go from home cooking to this culinary competition and then jumping to working in a now three mission star restaurant as your first job is, is like, uh, you're thrown right into the deep end.

[00:13:02] He brought me to Singapore to do an event with him. And that was like, you know, I appreciate that he had so much faith, but like, I definitely wasn't ready for that.

[00:13:10] Like, you know, um, I, I, why do you say that?

[00:13:15] Like for one, I did it cause I didn't want to disappoint him, but like right away it's, it's like, wow, you're not, your body is not used to working these hours instantly. Right.

[00:13:26] So like, for example, I remember the first day my neck hurt cause I'm not used to chopping and staring down at the cutting board for like eight hours straight on your feet for 12 hours straight.

[00:13:39] Um, and then like, you know, you're too shy and nervous to, to ask any questions. You're too shy to ask like, Hey, can I get a water? Hey, can I go to the washroom?

[00:13:49] Hey, can I get a snack or something? You just want to work and not like disappoint anyone. That's at least my mentality. It's like, this is huge opportunity where, you know, he just got three mission stars taking you on an event, asking you to help him with the event.

[00:14:01] You, there's so much pressure. Yeah. You just, you're just embracing the experience. I'm not going to be the one to be like, Oh man, this is a long day. Oh man. Like it's, it's kind of like hard.

[00:14:08] I'm just like trying to take it all in, learn as much as possible. But like, even the techniques making things in large quantities is not something a home cook's used to.

[00:14:17] Like I had to make a 70 liter batch of ice cream base and I, I overcooked it. I scrambled it. Cause like, you know, I, I know how to make a caramel glaze, but I distinctly remember like, Oh man, I didn't think about how it cools down.

[00:14:30] Like I made a big batch. It was perfect. And then it just kept heating up, just give me a hotter and hotter, stay in the pot and then it scrambled. And then one of the sous chefs at the time had to like blend it, pass it and like fix my mistake essentially.

[00:14:42] And then I got banished to making like a thousand molecular soup dumplings in the freezer.

[00:14:48] They're like, you're from Canada. You like things, uh, you can handle cold.

[00:14:51] Um, so yeah, it was, it was like an incredible experience.

[00:14:55] And, and yeah, I owe a lot of, you know, the chef of the chef that I am today is thanks to him.

[00:15:00] Thanks to him. It's funny. I mean, firstly, again, another reference for the first time on the podcast is the word banished. I haven't heard anyone ever say they've been banished from something, but it, you describe, after you described that story, you said it was an incredible experience.

[00:15:15] As I'm sitting here listening to you speak, I'm thinking this sounds awful. So what is it about that that made it incredible? Is it the passion? Is it because you knew this was a stepping stone to a greater opportunity? What was it that to you, even when you look back on it, makes it incredible?

[00:15:35] The thing that makes it incredible for me is that it was almost like a jumpstart to my career. Like people can work for years as a chef and they wouldn't have had that opportunity.

[00:15:46] And that, that is completely invaluable to get to work side by side with a three mission start chef at an event and see how this incredible high level of cuisine is done.

[00:15:57] Um, is, is, is, is, is a complete eye opener. Cause like, keep in mind, I was very, you know, boxed into Canada. Canada had incredible food of course, but like at that time they didn't have, you know, high end fine dining mission guide. Um, and Alvin showing me all these like tasty menu restaurants, like every night we'd be going out to these like one star, two star, three star restaurants.

[00:16:20] And it was just like completely opening your world to a level of cooking that you knew you didn't even think was possible. Like you can't even fathom the jump. It's like, I don't know how to explain it. It's like, if you've been having water your whole life and then somebody shows you Coca-Cola, but like, that's your first time having something like sweet and fizzy, your mind's just blown. And that's the same for like food. I was just living at like a two.

[00:16:47] And then within like a week, you just get exposed to like 10, 10, 10, 10. And you're like, Holy crap. I've been like, I'm so behind in what I thought cooking was, you know? And that alone is, is an incredible experience.

[00:16:59] So you do four months in Singapore at the restaurant. It was a two Michelin star restaurant became three.

[00:17:05] Yeah. So it was a two Michelin star restaurant in Hong Kong, but he took me to an event in Singapore just for a week, but predominantly I was in Hong Kong.

[00:17:12] I see. Okay. For, for those who have heard the term Michelin star, but you know, know that it generally means that this is a fancier type restaurant, because that's how I used to describe it. I see, I hear Michelin star. I just go, Oh, so it's just fancy.

[00:17:26] What exactly has to happen for a restaurant to acquire a Michelin rating?

[00:17:30] Well, the, the rules are supposed to be only judging food. A lot of people think it is supposed to be judging service, but obviously service impacts how you judge food. Like, you know, the ambiance, if you're in a better mood, cause the service is fantastic.

[00:17:44] If the ambiance is great, everything's clean and beautifully presented and timed in a, in a great manner.

[00:17:49] Then of course you're going to be more inclined to enjoy the food. If you have horrible service, people are like yelling at you, swearing at you.

[00:17:58] It doesn't matter how good the food is. You're never going to judge it fairly.

[00:18:00] So although they say they're not supposed to judge the service, they, they, they obviously, they obviously do.

[00:18:05] Um, but it's purely supposed to be based on the cookery of the food, whether the chef's personality is shown in the food and mastery of technique, right?

[00:18:16] These, these three things are crucial to earning a Michelin star. So like a lot of these, you know, one star is supposed to be like great, great food.

[00:18:24] Two star is kind of worth a detour, I believe. And then three stars, like definitely go out of your way to dine at this restaurant. It's worth a stop.

[00:18:31] Um, so to get three stars is, is kind of the pinnacle of, of cooking. Like every, you know, there's less than a hundred three Michelin star chefs in the world.

[00:18:40] Oh wow.

[00:18:41] Right? Like every, every three Michelin star chef is, is a, is a legend.

[00:18:46] How many do we have in Canada?

[00:18:48] None.

[00:18:48] Not three, but like general, like Michelin star restaurants.

[00:18:51] Oh, I, um, I think there's like 16 in Toronto.

[00:18:54] Okay.

[00:18:54] Michelin starred restaurants. A lot of people confuse like Michelin recommended restaurants, like just because they're in the guide.

[00:19:00] And Bib Gourmand's and, and Michelin star. Those are all three different things.

[00:19:04] Okay. So there's distinctions between the three, but there isn't a three Michelin star restaurant in Canada.

[00:19:10] No, there, there's only one, two Michelin star restaurant in Canada and that's, um, Sushi Masaki Saito's.

[00:19:14] Is that the one out West?

[00:19:16] Nope. It's, uh, in Toronto, it's about like, I think it's 680 bucks per person.

[00:19:20] Okay.

[00:19:21] Yeah.

[00:19:21] So is it always fine dining?

[00:19:24] No, no. So like, that's why I say Michelin is supposed to judge purely food.

[00:19:29] So like in, in parts of Asia and Singapore and Thailand, there's like hawker stalls that have a one Michelin star just because their food is fantastic.

[00:19:35] They, they've executed, you know, perfectly.

[00:19:38] Like there's a chicken rice place that has a one Michelin star.

[00:19:39] In Hong Kong, there's a dim sum place that has a one Michelin star just because their execution is, is, is perfect.

[00:19:45] Um, yeah, it, it, it, it doesn't always have to be fancy, um, or tasty menu.

[00:19:54] It's just that, you know, I, I think it's probably more common that it is, but I, I wouldn't say every Michelin star restaurant is, is fancy.

[00:20:03] What's the biggest lesson you took away from that small window of time working in Hong Kong?

[00:20:09] When you look back on it, like what's the biggest lesson from all of that?

[00:20:12] I would say the biggest lesson is how much more I have to learn.

[00:20:16] Um, you know, for years, why I was so passionate about cooking.

[00:20:21] I just, one, I just love to cook, but like, I would literally just watch the food network, all these cooking shows and like YouTube, um, and just learn how to make these like rudimentary dishes.

[00:20:30] Like, oh wow, I know how to make a chicken parm now, or I know how to make pasta from scratch.

[00:20:35] Um, and then that trip showed me like, wow, there is a whole, like, like I've been cooking on easy mode essentially.

[00:20:46] And I'm like, I'm so far behind and that's what drives my passion to continue learning and growing like that, that four months is like really showing how bad you are as a chef.

[00:20:57] Like that, that's essentially what it was.

[00:20:59] Um, I was like, wow, this is like, I'm embarrassed to be here.

[00:21:03] Um, what was the biggest lesson or what was the, the best advice Alvin gave you in that window of time?

[00:21:12] I can't imagine he just brought you to Hong Kong, dropped you in the restaurant and said, good luck.

[00:21:18] I mean, maybe, but like at some point he must've shared some sort of wisdom and knowledge.

[00:21:23] Yeah.

[00:21:24] He always shares like small little tips and tricks.

[00:21:29] Um, when we dine out, like he'll, he's dined everywhere around the world.

[00:21:32] So, um, you know, one of the first things was that he's like, doesn't matter how big of a chef you are.

[00:21:39] I still take photos of the food because it helps me remember and helps me reflect and helps me get inspired.

[00:21:45] So even, you know, right now there's like influences, everybody takes photos of food, but like even Alvin himself, when he goes dine, he takes photos of every dish.

[00:21:51] And then he like reviews it and kind of analyzes it to better his own cuisine, to see what's trending right now, to see how it looks on camera as well.

[00:21:59] I think that was a huge thing.

[00:22:00] So we just had a tasting for our new restaurant.

[00:22:03] And the first thing he did before tasting was take a photo of it.

[00:22:06] He's like, look at how it looks on a camera.

[00:22:08] And that's how majority of people will see it.

[00:22:09] So you have to change your plating, um, based on like this.

[00:22:12] So we had like one clear snack served on a white plate.

[00:22:16] He's like, it'll look much better if you serve on a clear plate.

[00:22:18] It'll actually enhance the clear look of, of, of your snack.

[00:22:23] Um, and then another key advice is always his saying is, is taste is king.

[00:22:28] He's like, doesn't matter how beautiful this, this plate is.

[00:22:30] It doesn't matter like how much story there's behind it.

[00:22:33] Like if it doesn't taste good, it's pointless.

[00:22:35] Um, and there's a lot of restaurants we went to that, you know, didn't really focus on taste,

[00:22:43] focus more about like narrative presentation.

[00:22:45] Um, but he's like, taste will always reign supreme.

[00:22:48] Taste is king.

[00:22:49] Taste is something that everybody can remember.

[00:22:53] It's funny because the, as you were talking, I've been, I was thinking about the number

[00:22:57] of restaurants I've been to in Toronto where presentation was 10 out of 10, but it lacked

[00:23:03] in the taste.

[00:23:04] And that was the, there was almost a sense of disappointment after I left.

[00:23:08] Like, oh, that could have been so much better.

[00:23:10] Like what a missed opportunity.

[00:23:12] Yeah, that's, I think that's, um, you know, that, that's my experience in, in a lot of

[00:23:18] restaurants.

[00:23:19] Um, for sure.

[00:23:20] Where do you draw your inspiration from?

[00:23:22] Cause you talked about personality, the chef's personality coming through in the meal that

[00:23:26] they make, that they curate the menu.

[00:23:28] Where does your inspiration come from?

[00:23:31] Um, my inspiration really comes from my places of travel for one.

[00:23:36] So like a lot of, um, our dishes for both R and D and akin is, is inspired by places

[00:23:44] I've been to.

[00:23:44] So like Thailand, um, Japan, Hong Kong, obviously, and then also inspired by, by doing things

[00:23:50] differently.

[00:23:51] I never like to create something that you can get somewhere else because I think when

[00:23:56] we first opened R and D everybody would be, would compare us because we're in Chinatown

[00:24:01] and be like, oh wow.

[00:24:02] Why would we pay, you know, this much for fried rice when I can get it down the street for half

[00:24:06] the price.

[00:24:06] Um, so like that always stuck in my mind.

[00:24:09] Like I don't want to ever create something that people can get anywhere else, um, or copy

[00:24:13] or, or say that like, Hey, this is directly comparable.

[00:24:17] Um, so my inspiration comes from, you know, trying to do things differently.

[00:24:21] Um, but I always get inspired by, you know, some of my childhood memories, some of my heritage.

[00:24:26] That's why a lot of our menus have Malaysian background, um, Singaporean influence, except

[00:24:31] just done in our own modern spin.

[00:24:33] Like I never like do things traditionally or, or like other people have done it before.

[00:24:38] Okay.

[00:24:40] And how does that come across in your actual, like in the preparation of a menu, let's say,

[00:24:47] because I've always been fascinated by that.

[00:24:49] Whenever I hear of a chef talking about how, you know, I've just created a new tasting menu.

[00:24:54] I almost equate it sometimes to a music artist talking about, they just created a new album,

[00:24:59] right?

[00:24:59] Like it's a collection of their work in the same way a menu is a collection of your work

[00:25:04] across a variety of different things from starting with the apps to the main desserts

[00:25:08] et cetera.

[00:25:09] What does that process look like for you?

[00:25:13] Um, it, I would say it's, it's not a clear cut process for every restaurant.

[00:25:19] So for R and D, for example, we're, we're like Asian tapas restaurant is much more casual,

[00:25:24] um, higher volume and plates.

[00:25:26] You don't really have that much time to go over like a narrative and a story, but at a

[00:25:31] kin or a new restaurant, it's a tasting menu only.

[00:25:33] It's like a three hour dining experience.

[00:25:35] It's a 10 course blind tasting menu.

[00:25:36] Um, that one, you have more opportunity to have a narrative, have a story, have some meaning

[00:25:41] behind all the food.

[00:25:42] Um, and then really dive and delve deep into heritage and, and, and childhood memories.

[00:25:49] Right.

[00:25:49] So like for a kin, um, one of our first snacks is inspired by congee.

[00:25:54] Um, everybody knows congee is like a rice porridge.

[00:25:57] Um, and it's always served with something called, uh, yaotu, which is like, um, a Chinese donut.

[00:26:03] So my modern take on it is making a crystal completely translucent yaotu.

[00:26:08] Um, so it's like a clear crystal bread.

[00:26:10] And then we make a, like a, a white puree that consists of dried muscle, compoy, dried cuttlefish

[00:26:18] and rice simmered, strained.

[00:26:20] So you have this like congee like puree that's drizzled over top.

[00:26:24] Um, instead of putting your traditional olive leaf, that's always in a congee.

[00:26:28] Um, we made it all with leaf mayo that's dotted.

[00:26:30] And then every congee is always made with, with pork stock, right.

[00:26:35] Or, or chicken stock or some sort of soup base.

[00:26:37] So we actually take, um, a really delicious pork stock that we make, cook it down with potatoes,

[00:26:42] um, blend it and dehydrate it into a powder.

[00:26:44] And then we use that to dust the crystal beds.

[00:26:47] When you bite into this first snack and you close your eyes, it'll still taste reminiscent of congee.

[00:26:53] However, it looks completely different.

[00:26:55] It's our own modern take on it.

[00:26:57] And it's, in my opinion, quite, um, creative.

[00:27:00] So I think with a kin, you have a lot more opportunity to create like these stories and,

[00:27:07] and kind of explain our thought process.

[00:27:09] But with R and D, it's just like, here's the dish.

[00:27:12] This is a shrimp toast.

[00:27:12] This is our modern take on it.

[00:27:13] We did, we do it differently.

[00:27:15] Obviously look at this, you know, it's, it's just the volume and the speed is way more casual

[00:27:20] and, and, and less refined.

[00:27:22] I would say it very much is an art form, isn't it?

[00:27:25] To us, envy is a good thing.

[00:27:27] It motivates us in the pursuit of better.

[00:27:31] Like crafting a bourbon, even the angels would envy.

[00:27:38] Angels envy, worth the envy.

[00:27:40] How long did it take you to do all that?

[00:27:42] Um, well, I've been a professional chef for over 10 years now.

[00:27:47] So it just takes a lot of trial and error, I would say.

[00:27:50] Um, and really exposing yourself.

[00:27:54] That's one of the greatest lessons I think that Alvin, Alvin did is like really,

[00:27:58] going out and trying all these top restaurants.

[00:28:00] Um, a lot of chefs is crazy.

[00:28:01] Like when I interview chefs, I'll ask them like, Oh, what's your favorite place to eat?

[00:28:04] Like, Oh, I don't really like go out to eat.

[00:28:06] Um, so like I make an effort to take my staff out to restaurants every month.

[00:28:11] Um, of course it's like a financial burden, but I think it's important to help grow the

[00:28:15] chefs to really expose them to what the city is doing.

[00:28:20] Um, what other restaurants are doing.

[00:28:21] And I even sent my, my head chef to Asia, um, to work at a mission site restaurant, to

[00:28:28] try all these nice top restaurants, to really get exposed to a different level of cuisine.

[00:28:31] I think it's really important to just not focus on cooking, but actually taste other people's

[00:28:36] cooking too.

[00:28:37] That's the only way I grew.

[00:28:39] Uh, this is a great segue into the part where you went from, you know, being a home cook

[00:28:46] for the most part to winning a contest to starting this professional journey to suddenly owning

[00:28:53] a pair of restaurants.

[00:28:55] And now you're not just a professional chef, but you're a business owner.

[00:28:59] You're an entrepreneur.

[00:29:00] What's that journey been like?

[00:29:02] Um, a lot of people I've spoken to who are chefs with their own restaurants have commented

[00:29:07] about the challenges of doing all of that because it takes away from the real passion

[00:29:12] of cooking.

[00:29:14] Absolutely.

[00:29:15] I mean, the first challenge is finding people that you trust.

[00:29:18] That's, that's, I think that's with any business is surrounding yourself with people that you

[00:29:22] can trust and like comfortably let go.

[00:29:24] Um, for the longest time that was very difficult to, to come across.

[00:29:28] And I think me personally, it's been a bit of an uphill battle because as you mentioned,

[00:29:34] yeah, like people view me as, you know, match chef Canada winner.

[00:29:37] That was a home cook and I'll always have that title.

[00:29:40] Like everybody will always just say, Oh, it's that home cook.

[00:29:43] With the sad face.

[00:29:44] Yeah.

[00:29:45] It's that home cook with the sad face.

[00:29:46] And so you're fighting an uphill battle of, of gaining other people's respect.

[00:29:50] Um, that includes your employees.

[00:29:52] So it was like when we opened R and D I was what, like 20, 23 years old.

[00:29:59] Um, obviously hiring people that are older than me.

[00:30:03] Um, and I wasn't like so arrogant that I, that I thought I knew everything.

[00:30:07] Like a lot of people don't know this, but when we first opened R and D, I wasn't the head

[00:30:11] chef of my own restaurant.

[00:30:13] I was, uh, the sous chef learning from a, another chef de cuisine on how to operate

[00:30:18] a business.

[00:30:19] Um, so I went through three head chefs before I was comfortable enough to actually run my

[00:30:24] own restaurant.

[00:30:25] Um, so there's a huge learning curve to, yeah, the things that go beyond just cooking.

[00:30:30] Um, and I think one of the biggest challenges is, as I mentioned, trusting the right people.

[00:30:36] My father always said like, you need to find a way to work yourself out of a job, um, to

[00:30:41] the point where if you're not there, it'll function properly so that you can actually focus on the

[00:30:47] bigger picture.

[00:30:47] And for a really long time, I couldn't find those people where I had to, I felt like I

[00:30:52] had to do everything.

[00:30:53] Um, if I didn't do it, it would, it would be done wrong or, or whatever.

[00:30:56] And we finally got to a point where, you know, I've surrounded myself with people that

[00:31:01] I trust that, that can help me run the restaurant while I do focus on building other restaurants.

[00:31:06] So like building this new one, like liquor license, the website, the POS, everything.

[00:31:10] It's, it's, it's a challenge.

[00:31:12] Um, and I, I think as an entrepreneur that nobody can really train is, is people management,

[00:31:17] talking to people.

[00:31:18] That's, that's a, a skill in itself.

[00:31:22] So how did you learn that?

[00:31:24] Through trial and error for sure.

[00:31:25] Um, I would say, you know, when, when we first opened R and D, I obviously was much younger,

[00:31:31] much more immature, much more short tempered.

[00:31:35] Um, and you know, you, everybody has a stigma of like Gordon Ramsey yelling at people in

[00:31:39] the kitchen that just doesn't work.

[00:31:42] It just doesn't work.

[00:31:44] So like, you know, I talked to, you know, my motto is I'll never ask somebody to do something

[00:31:51] I'm not willing to do myself.

[00:31:52] Um, I'm, I'm a working owner, so you'll see me if you go to R and D, I, I still scrub.

[00:31:58] I still sweep.

[00:31:59] I, I do it all.

[00:32:01] Um, and I think because I, I still had that experience of, of working every position in the

[00:32:07] restaurant all the way from ground up, I can understand and show empathy to what the employees

[00:32:12] are going through.

[00:32:13] Um, you know, I think some chefs, the longer they're out of the kitchen, the more ambitious

[00:32:18] they get with their menu, but then they don't really think about logistically how it's done.

[00:32:22] They're just like, yeah, you can do it.

[00:32:24] Like, but you know, I, I at least go through the process.

[00:32:26] Like, how would I do this?

[00:32:27] Is this even possible to be done in this specific amount of time?

[00:32:30] Um, and I can, I can really show empathy if, if, you know, I, I genuinely look at their

[00:32:36] workload and be like, okay, no, this is not manageable.

[00:32:39] Um, yeah, really, really trial and error seeing what works, but like our, our work environment

[00:32:45] is very casual at R and D.

[00:32:47] Like people, we have an open kitchen, but people always comment on the chef rail, like, Hey,

[00:32:51] you know, this looks like a really fun place to work.

[00:32:53] Like it looks like everybody gets along because like we, we crack jokes.

[00:32:56] Um, so how do you cultivate that kind of culture?

[00:33:01] Um, the first thing I tell all my employees, um, when I interview them or about to hire

[00:33:06] them, I say, it doesn't matter how good you are.

[00:33:09] It matters if I like you.

[00:33:10] Um, I don't care how strong your resume is.

[00:33:12] You can have zero experience, but if you're a good person and I, you pass the vibe check,

[00:33:16] um, you're in because end of the day, I will see you more than I see my own friends and

[00:33:20] family.

[00:33:21] So if I don't like you, then you're not hired.

[00:33:23] Um, and we've had, you know, great success hiring people with zero kitchen experience.

[00:33:28] Um, people from accounting that just want to do cooking, but I find it's, it's much more

[00:33:34] successful hiring these people as your experience because you get to, you know, mold them, grow

[00:33:40] them, um, develop their, their techniques and they don't come in with a preconceived, um,

[00:33:45] idea of how things are done.

[00:33:48] And like having like basic education is so fundamental to being a chef.

[00:33:54] And I think I don't regret doing engineering at all.

[00:33:56] Um, but like the people that have come in from accounting are just, they excel so much

[00:34:01] faster because they just have the efficient mindset, the logistical mindset.

[00:34:05] They, they know how to solving exactly problem solving.

[00:34:08] They know how to do basic math.

[00:34:10] It's crazy.

[00:34:10] The amount of people in an industry industry that can't do like math.

[00:34:14] If I'm like scale this recipe to this ingredient or like, can you do a three times of this recipe

[00:34:19] and like people just can't do it.

[00:34:21] It's, it's, it's crazy.

[00:34:23] Like math is super key and like knowing how to use Excel word reply to emails.

[00:34:28] There's more than just like chop onion, you know?

[00:34:32] Um, and people with like a strong foundation of a good education, like Excel in the industry.

[00:34:38] You said, you know, the, the Gordon Ramsay method of just yelling at people.

[00:34:43] And I wonder sometimes how much of that was for television, um, versus reality, but I'm

[00:34:48] curious to hear or to understand from your perspective, why you say that does not work

[00:34:55] from the outside.

[00:34:56] I can just simply say, yeah, I don't want to be yelled at.

[00:34:59] I'll work better if you don't yell at me.

[00:35:00] But as someone who's in the kitchen, who owns a pair of restaurants is working in this

[00:35:05] industry day in and day out.

[00:35:07] So why does that not work?

[00:35:11] Um, I think after COVID one, it's mostly after COVID to be honest, because after COVID, so

[00:35:18] many people left the industry and now we're constantly like doing an uphill battle of trying

[00:35:23] to get more people to dive into the hospitality industry.

[00:35:28] Right.

[00:35:28] So if you do yell at somebody, it's as simple as like, okay, like, I don't, like, I don't

[00:35:33] enjoy being yelled at.

[00:35:34] You don't enjoy being yelled at.

[00:35:35] Nobody enjoys being yelled at.

[00:35:36] You'll just find another job.

[00:35:37] Um, there's so many vacancies and so many restaurants that it's very easy for people to

[00:35:41] just find another job now.

[00:35:42] So like you just try and cultivate a work environment that people are happy to be in.

[00:35:48] Um, not lived by like fear and, and, and scared of being yelled at.

[00:35:52] Um, so is that when you say it's a, you know, a pandemic change that and people left, is it

[00:35:59] that the pandemic happened and people left because the hospitality industry was basically shut down.

[00:36:05] So they needed another job.

[00:36:08] Or is it that this was eventually going to happen regardless because the trajectory of,

[00:36:13] you know, this type of really tough environment, because let's call it what it is.

[00:36:17] It's, you know, standing on your feet for 12 hours a day, then sort of head down cutting the, the,

[00:36:23] all of the pressures that come with being in a kitchen.

[00:36:26] They're not for everybody.

[00:36:28] They get glamorized quite a bit on television and reality shows, but they're not for everybody.

[00:36:32] So I'm wondering, was the pandemic just expediting what was already going to happen at some point?

[00:36:38] Um, I don't think so.

[00:36:40] I like the hospitality industry is a passion driven industry.

[00:36:44] So people excel because they're passionate about it.

[00:36:46] People love to cook.

[00:36:47] Um, but at the same time during the pandemic, I think a lot of people in the hospitality industry

[00:36:54] finally got that work-life balance that everybody else got to enjoy.

[00:36:57] They finally didn't have to work the Saturday Sundays.

[00:37:01] They finally had time to spend with friends, had time to go out.

[00:37:06] Um, so a lot of people, you know, don't understand that the hospitality industry, yeah,

[00:37:11] although it's physically demanding, it is also, you know, emotionally demanding where you do

[00:37:16] have to make a lot of personal sacrifices and don't, you aren't always able to spend as

[00:37:20] much time with your loved ones as, as you would like.

[00:37:23] And I think during the pandemic, it really showed that like a lot of people were like, wow,

[00:37:27] I can, you know, I can, I can go pursue my passion for musician, be a DJ, real estate, like the

[00:37:37] amount of people that in our industry just took up real estate, um, and have a beautiful

[00:37:41] work-life balance.

[00:37:42] Like they set their own schedule or just social media.

[00:37:44] Like a lot of people just, you know, found other methods of making their work-life balance

[00:37:49] a lot better.

[00:37:50] Um, there's a lot of chefs that rose to popularity because of social media during the pandemic.

[00:37:56] Mm-hmm.

[00:37:57] So when you talk about work-life balance, can you have work-life balance in the culinary

[00:38:00] industry?

[00:38:02] Um, that's a tricky question because work-life balance is, is, is different for everybody.

[00:38:09] I don't know if there's a, there's a clear cut.

[00:38:12] What is good work-life balance?

[00:38:14] Do you have it?

[00:38:15] Um, my wife would say I do not have good work-life balance.

[00:38:20] Um, I can't imagine you do when you're running two restaurants and several projects on the side.

[00:38:25] Like I, I'm, it's a question I like to ask people because I'm genuinely curious to understand

[00:38:30] how people balance their schedules.

[00:38:31] I struggle with it too.

[00:38:32] I'm doing so many different things that I'm constantly trying to find.

[00:38:36] I feel like I'm working towards this idea of finally being able to just rest and have

[00:38:41] things automated, but yet I somehow end up working more and I I'm forever chasing this

[00:38:47] balance that everyone's talking about.

[00:38:50] I 100% agree because there's always more opportunities.

[00:38:53] And my wife's always like, well, you don't always have to say yes.

[00:38:55] But I was like, well, like these opportunities are so great that I, I can't turn them down

[00:38:59] both financially.

[00:39:00] And I think the opportunities are great.

[00:39:01] Um, so like beyond the two restaurants, yeah, I do do a decent amount of collabs on social

[00:39:06] media.

[00:39:07] And she's like, why do you always have to say yes?

[00:39:08] I was like, dude, first of all, like financially they, they, they pay really well, but like two,

[00:39:14] I think it's great exposure.

[00:39:15] Um, but do I have good work life balance?

[00:39:20] I think 99% of people would say no.

[00:39:24] Um, but I've, I've surrounded myself with really strong relationships.

[00:39:29] Like my friends are like this, like, it doesn't matter how long we haven't seen each other.

[00:39:34] It's, it's as if they're, they're like family.

[00:39:36] My parents completely understand my, my wife is, you know, very strong willed.

[00:39:41] She's an incredible parent.

[00:39:41] She, she was a nurse, um, at SickKids.

[00:39:44] So she, you know, we do have a seven month year old baby.

[00:39:48] Um, and I've been a pretty, pretty worried there.

[00:39:51] I've been a pretty absent father to it, to be honest, but like my wife completely understands

[00:39:55] I'm trying to build something, something special.

[00:39:59] So this has been a lifelong dream to open a fine dining restaurant.

[00:40:02] So, you know, restaurant openings aren't easy, especially when you have a newborn that's

[00:40:06] like crying at 4am.

[00:40:08] Um, but yeah, it's guilty.

[00:40:11] I think guilt is, is the number one, the number one killer of industry for sure.

[00:40:16] Um, guilt, guilt is every single day feel guilty.

[00:40:20] Um, you know, as an entrepreneur, a lot of people don't realize like the second you wake

[00:40:25] up, it's work.

[00:40:26] There's no like middle ground of like, okay, I'm waking up.

[00:40:29] Let me like decompress.

[00:40:30] It's like, check your phone, 30 emails and like work starts right away.

[00:40:33] So there's always whether it's guilty, not being at the restaurant.

[00:40:37] Um, like if I leave home, leave the restaurant early one day to go spend time with my family,

[00:40:41] I feel guilty that I'm not like they're closing with them.

[00:40:44] Like they're just like, oh man, this, this owner doesn't want to like close with us.

[00:40:47] He's so lazy, whatever.

[00:40:48] So there's guilt there.

[00:40:49] And then when you're working, it's like, oh man, um, I'm not getting enough time to

[00:40:53] spend with my, my, my wife, my friends.

[00:40:56] Um, yeah, guilt, guilt is always weighing on my mind for sure.

[00:41:02] So how do you navigate that?

[00:41:04] How do you, you know, knowing that you're self-aware enough to know that you're feeling

[00:41:09] guilty on both ends of the spectrum?

[00:41:12] How are you navigating that daily?

[00:41:14] Um, I use guilt as a motivator, to be honest.

[00:41:17] I think it sounds a bit weird, but like the amount of guilt I feel pushes me to make sure

[00:41:24] that whatever I'm doing and feeling guilty about, it needs to be worth it.

[00:41:28] That's the end of the day.

[00:41:29] So like, I can't have this restaurant fail because I've spent so much time away from

[00:41:34] my family and friends that if it fails, like what was all for?

[00:41:38] It was all for nothing.

[00:41:39] So what am I going to open a restaurant and have it fail?

[00:41:42] And I just lost like the first year of my, my child's life.

[00:41:45] That's, that's unacceptable.

[00:41:47] Um, so I use that as a, as a motivation so that every time I feel guilty, I'm like, okay,

[00:41:51] it'll be worth it.

[00:41:52] My wife says the same thing.

[00:41:53] She's like, you know, it'll, it'll all be worth it.

[00:41:55] And those words, a lot of people just say that, but like they have a heavy impact.

[00:42:01] Um, cause if, what if it's not worth it, then, then you just feel even more guilty.

[00:42:06] Um, and like feeling guilty already sucks.

[00:42:08] So I definitely don't want to feel more guilty.

[00:42:11] You know, it's funny.

[00:42:11] I heard, um, I wish I could remember the exact term.

[00:42:17] I, I had heard an entrepreneur talk about, uh, I think they called it toxic motivation or

[00:42:24] something negative motivation where there's a negative feeling that ends up driving you

[00:42:29] to, to fulfill a certain objective, to hit that goal and how some of it can be good.

[00:42:34] But if it sort of teeters to too much, then it'll eventually take over and consume you.

[00:42:40] And it's finding that right balance between turning that into fuel.

[00:42:44] In this case, the guilt, turning the guilt into fuel to push you towards achieving that

[00:42:50] successful opening, the launch, et cetera, all of these things.

[00:42:53] But also knowing that it doesn't consume you to the point where that's all you're able

[00:42:58] to focus on, especially when you talk about having a seven month old at home too.

[00:43:01] Right.

[00:43:02] And then there's a consideration of, you know, time for your restaurant, time for your wife,

[00:43:07] time for your child, time for you.

[00:43:10] There's only so much time in the day and how you carve that out is on you.

[00:43:14] But if you're working these long hours, you know, like it makes me wonder how much time

[00:43:18] are you really allocating to all these things?

[00:43:21] Yeah.

[00:43:21] I mean, sorry, I put D and D.

[00:43:24] It's like vibrating.

[00:43:26] Um, yeah, I mean, I do try and balance time for sure.

[00:43:30] And that usually happens in the form of just losing sleep, um, which is not good.

[00:43:36] Yeah.

[00:43:37] Yeah.

[00:43:37] So like, I probably averaged like four hours of sleep a night.

[00:43:40] Um, but there's just, as you mentioned, there's so much to do and like, it's not just the guilt,

[00:43:46] it's the pressure.

[00:43:48] There is like so many people that rely, rely on me.

[00:43:52] Um, not, not like as an ego thing.

[00:43:54] It's just like, if I were to have a heart attack, it, you know, a lot of employees, a

[00:43:58] lot of things that have been already invested, um, all go up and smoke.

[00:44:03] So it's, it's a very good amount of pressure.

[00:44:07] I think I thrive under pressure.

[00:44:08] So some people will just like crack and crumble, but like, I've just invested so much that I

[00:44:15] can't really afford to fail.

[00:44:16] So you're in this interesting position.

[00:44:19] You're as an entrepreneur where the businesses are taking off, they're doing well, they're

[00:44:26] starting to scale.

[00:44:28] There's only so much of you that can go around.

[00:44:30] You talked about having the right type of people around you, people that you can trust,

[00:44:34] that you can offload things to.

[00:44:37] What does that process look like?

[00:44:39] At what point can Eric start to delegate to other members of his team where you can now

[00:44:46] take some of your time back?

[00:44:49] Mm-hmm.

[00:44:49] Yeah.

[00:44:50] It's, it's a very long process because food is, as you mentioned earlier, it is an art.

[00:44:56] So like, I don't think Picasso can ever delegate.

[00:44:59] I'm not saying I'm a Picasso.

[00:45:01] I'm just saying a form of art.

[00:45:02] Totally get it.

[00:45:02] Yeah.

[00:45:03] Like it's very hard to train your mindset.

[00:45:06] So it, it just takes time.

[00:45:09] Like my, my current chef de cuisine for, for our new fine dining restaurant, he's been with

[00:45:14] me for like three years now.

[00:45:16] But over time he slowly learns how I would do things just by working side by side.

[00:45:20] He would slowly learn.

[00:45:23] And I always view it as a, as a chart.

[00:45:25] So if we're at a problem solving scenario, um, and it's like a flow chart, I would go

[00:45:31] one way and majority of people may not go the same way, but like slowly over time, this

[00:45:36] guy slowly starts going my way and doing the exact same things that I would do.

[00:45:40] And then it's almost as if, if I were to ask him a problem or ask him a question, he would

[00:45:46] answer it the same way I would.

[00:45:47] So it's like trying to create, um, without it being sounding weird, like trying to create

[00:45:53] a doppelganger essentially is, is a very difficult thing to do.

[00:45:56] Um, and I watched like a podcast with, with Mr. Beast.

[00:46:00] He, he literally just has somebody follow him around all day to try and do the same thing

[00:46:04] to learn what he would do so that he doesn't have to do, you know, attend all these meetings.

[00:46:08] It's not like I'm trying to avoid doing it.

[00:46:11] It's that I do want to just take on more and do something else.

[00:46:14] So it's not like, it's never like once this guy learns how to do my job, I'm like, yep,

[00:46:19] I'm good.

[00:46:19] I'm chilling out of beach, whatever.

[00:46:21] But it's like, once he can do my job, I can actually do something else to create even more

[00:46:24] opportunities.

[00:46:25] So I don't know if there'll ever be a position where, you know, there's, there's like three

[00:46:30] of me that I can just like relax.

[00:46:31] I don't know.

[00:46:33] It's, it's every time you accomplish something, you have a new, a new goal.

[00:46:37] Like growing up, it's like, Oh, I want to be a chef.

[00:46:39] I'm a chef now.

[00:46:40] Um, now I want to have a restaurant.

[00:46:42] I have R and D now I want to get an admission guide.

[00:46:45] R and D is an admission guide.

[00:46:46] Now I want to have a fine dining restaurant.

[00:46:47] Once we get that, it's like, now I want to star and then two stars and three stars.

[00:46:51] Like there's always going to be a goal, but, um, it's just, yeah, I guess balancing and making

[00:46:56] sure, making sure my wife's savvy.

[00:46:59] Yeah.

[00:47:00] That's it.

[00:47:00] Yeah.

[00:47:01] So, um, it sounds like a lot of that comes with time, but there has to be intentionality

[00:47:10] behind it, right?

[00:47:11] You have to intentionally invest time in these people in order to bring them up so that they

[00:47:18] can produce quality at the level that you need them to, so that you can now allocate

[00:47:24] your time to the next thing.

[00:47:25] I think the, the biggest challenge with our industry for one is using that exact same

[00:47:31] scenario that you just described.

[00:47:34] It's like a constant push and pull in like whether or not you trust this person.

[00:47:37] So like, first of all, let's say I hire somebody obviously as a business owner, I want to show

[00:47:42] them everything as soon as possible so that they can be a great employee.

[00:47:45] The second they have nothing else to learn, they'll leave.

[00:47:48] That's a, that's a huge problem.

[00:47:49] So my chef de cuisine, at least, you know, he, he believes in the vision.

[00:47:53] He believes in the business.

[00:47:55] He believes in the restaurant.

[00:47:56] He wants to grow with the business.

[00:47:57] So, you know, he's been with me at R and D for a while and now he's going to be the chef

[00:48:01] de cuisine in my new fine dining restaurant.

[00:48:04] Um, I can trust him, but it might be only a matter of time by your logic.

[00:48:08] Correct.

[00:48:08] So how do you, how do you keep people?

[00:48:10] I have, I have, I think I have an answer for that, that I've recently come across that

[00:48:15] has made sense to me.

[00:48:16] I'm curious from your perspective, what you think that would be?

[00:48:20] I, I, I don't know if I have a, uh, a clear cut answer on how to keep people.

[00:48:26] Um, one is you have them personally invested or make sure that they have, um, they can share

[00:48:33] in the glory.

[00:48:34] So I think that's, that's a huge thing.

[00:48:36] Anytime we are, we have a good month, we have a great meal together.

[00:48:40] Um, like a bonus structure, a lot of these things just, I think the fact that we sort

[00:48:46] of built this menu together, built this restaurant together, you have a sense of ownership.

[00:48:50] Um, and once you have that sense of ownership, it's, it's something that becomes, you know,

[00:48:56] part of who you are, part of your own story.

[00:48:57] Um, and I think, you know, my restaurant is a part of their story now too, and that he's,

[00:49:02] he's actually invested.

[00:49:05] That's pretty much along the lines of what I was going to say.

[00:49:07] I've had a number of conversations with different entrepreneurs and business leaders.

[00:49:11] And the thing that stood out to me the most, because I was thinking about this not that

[00:49:15] long ago, actually, when, you know, you're in the corporate ladder for all intents and

[00:49:22] purposes, and you work extremely hard and you're rewarded with the salary that you're

[00:49:27] basically paid per year.

[00:49:29] You know, once you've sort of capped out on what your salary could be, you've kind of

[00:49:35] learned everything you could possibly learn.

[00:49:37] It's only natural.

[00:49:38] Your eyes are going to start wandering and you want to know what else is out there for you,

[00:49:42] because you can, at some point you're going to start to feel like I've basically given

[00:49:46] my all to build someone else's business.

[00:49:49] And so whether it is a bonus structure, whether it is a piece of equity, whether it's something

[00:49:55] that actually ensures that that person feels like they're part of that business, is the

[00:50:01] one recipe that I've been taught and told and shared with that I think seems to make

[00:50:07] the most amount of sense.

[00:50:08] And we're not talking like you have to give them half the business or anything like that.

[00:50:11] And they have to work for it's not like here you go passing them around like candy.

[00:50:15] It's more like for the ones to your point that you can trust that you've spent time and

[00:50:19] energy into building and cultivating and you trust that they actually want to see the business

[00:50:24] succeed in that scenario.

[00:50:26] I think that's been a recipe that I've seen work successfully.

[00:50:30] Yeah, I 100% agree.

[00:50:31] I think it is hard to come by though, to get to get that point.

[00:50:36] It's like, it's just, you know, not everybody can be, can be you, for example.

[00:50:43] It's just something that, that is a fact.

[00:50:46] It's just, you know, in my whole 10 years, I've come across like two people.

[00:50:51] One of them still works for me.

[00:50:52] One of them was a groomsman at my wedding and he's out of the industry.

[00:50:56] That's it.

[00:50:57] There's just two in 10 years.

[00:50:59] So it's, yeah, these things don't come by easy, but, but when they do, of course you,

[00:51:03] you want to, you want to hold onto them.

[00:51:05] Absolutely.

[00:51:07] So, um, the new restaurant, when does it open?

[00:51:12] Um, it will be opening in November.

[00:51:14] Um, you know, the dates slowly keep moving, but like we are hoping to open to the public

[00:51:18] November 12th.

[00:51:19] Um, but it's been like two years in the works.

[00:51:21] Two years.

[00:51:22] That's a long time to be working on a project like that.

[00:51:25] Oh, I know.

[00:51:26] I can imagine there's some excitement and anticipation, fear, the whole gamut of things

[00:51:31] as you're trying to like navigate where you are today, where you were when you started

[00:51:36] this journey.

[00:51:37] And then the fact that it's almost right there.

[00:51:39] Yeah.

[00:51:40] Yeah.

[00:51:40] It's, it's crazy that we're finally so close.

[00:51:42] There's, there's always this imposter syndrome, like where, man, maybe I, I'm not good enough

[00:51:47] to open the finding.

[00:51:48] Maybe like this still feels kind of a dream that it's not actually happening.

[00:51:51] And then once you start seeing the restaurant take shape, once your staff gets hired, once

[00:51:55] the menu's built, once you do your photos, it's like, wow, these look incredible.

[00:51:59] This is actually happening.

[00:52:00] Um, and it happens like so, so fast.

[00:52:04] Like these, the first two years are just like a nightmare of just like delay, delay, delay.

[00:52:08] And you just, I really wanted to catch Michelin this year, um, which is every September.

[00:52:12] But then like slowly as you get delays and delays, you start seeing like that dream slip

[00:52:17] away.

[00:52:17] And then now the next dream is like, you know, you want to open for holiday season.

[00:52:20] So you're going to push for that.

[00:52:21] There's always going to be something you're pushing for, but, um, like our, our rent starts

[00:52:26] November.

[00:52:27] So yeah.

[00:52:28] So you better hope.

[00:52:29] Yeah.

[00:52:30] What are you most afraid of with it?

[00:52:32] Um, most afraid there's, there's so many fears, but most afraid I would say is, it's

[00:52:41] just not being, um, busy.

[00:52:44] I'm not, I'm not afraid of failing.

[00:52:47] I'm not afraid that people won't like the food cause I'm quite confident in that.

[00:52:50] I'm afraid that we just won't have a full restaurant every night just because of the price point,

[00:52:54] um, or the economy.

[00:52:56] Like everybody is, is kind of like turtling at this point, um, with inflation.

[00:53:02] So that's, that's my biggest fear is just not having a consistently full restaurant.

[00:53:06] Hmm.

[00:53:07] And what are you most excited about?

[00:53:11] You know, I'm, I'm definitely most excited just to show the city and show my friends and

[00:53:15] family.

[00:53:17] My true self, I'd like to say, because I think having a fine dining restaurant is one of the

[00:53:23] best ways a chef can showcase their passion, their creativity and their innovation.

[00:53:26] Um, not just in, in the food, but in the service as a whole.

[00:53:30] Um, you know, we've, I've taken so many steps to try and create something that Toronto hasn't

[00:53:36] seen before and try and make a really special experience that goes all the way down to custom

[00:53:41] plateware as well.

[00:53:42] So like even our plates are custom made to reflect the dish that it, that the ingredient

[00:53:47] that it's served with.

[00:53:48] So like we made a handmade, um, ceramic bowl that looks like a sea urchin because we have a

[00:53:55] sea urchin chowin mushi dish.

[00:53:56] Um, we have a beautiful rice bowl with rice grains embedded in it to symbolize the rice

[00:54:02] because we serve a risotto dish.

[00:54:03] There's, there's so many different steps and customization that we did with this restaurant

[00:54:09] that I really want.

[00:54:10] I just can't wait to show the city.

[00:54:11] That's, that's it.

[00:54:12] Like we, we got, we have a comically large printed menu because all those fine dining,

[00:54:17] it's like stuffy, but like we have comically large menu in case somebody forgets their glasses.

[00:54:24] That's it.

[00:54:24] So they forget the glasses.

[00:54:25] They're like, Oh no, I can't read this.

[00:54:26] Instead of giving them like a magnifying glass, we just bring out this comically large menu

[00:54:30] and it's just a funny, I just think it's funny.

[00:54:34] And I think it's just a way where it lightens the mood.

[00:54:36] Everybody has an opinion of like fine dining.

[00:54:38] You know, we don't have tablecloths, but it's, it's, it's comfort.

[00:54:41] End of the day, people consider fine dining as like really high end.

[00:54:46] I'm too scared to, to, to like drop a fork or whatever, but it's all about creating a

[00:54:50] memory and, and making the guests feel comfortable.

[00:54:53] And I want them to feel that we've thought of everything already for them.

[00:54:56] So like we have branded phone chargers.

[00:54:59] Um, we have, we have built in wine coolers into essential service stations so that they

[00:55:06] don't have to sit in ice and get all wet.

[00:55:08] Um, there, there's like so many little things that we've customized even to the point of

[00:55:14] the lights, light lights is important to me.

[00:55:16] So like our pendant light system is on a track.

[00:55:19] So when we combine two tables of two into a four top, we can move the pendants and the

[00:55:24] light is still centered in the table.

[00:55:26] Um, there, there's like so many small details I can like go on and on about how many bespoke

[00:55:32] things we made about, uh, the restaurant, but I think I just can't wait for people to

[00:55:37] just enjoy it.

[00:55:39] Enjoy like two years of hard work.

[00:55:41] That's amazing.

[00:55:42] Eric, thank you so much.

[00:55:43] This was so insightful.

[00:55:46] Uh, one of my favorite conversations, particularly around the hospitality industry, because I almost

[00:55:51] feel like I was approaching it from the same perspective you were approaching it when

[00:55:55] you first got into it.

[00:55:56] Like we had no idea what to expect of it and you kind of got thrust into it.

[00:56:00] And then just hearing the story of how it grew to where, like you grew in your, in your,

[00:56:06] in your art to where you are today, to the point where you're opening up the restaurant

[00:56:10] is just absolutely incredible.

[00:56:11] So congratulations on R and D congratulations on the new spot.

[00:56:15] I can't wait to check it out.

[00:56:17] Um, and I wish you the best of luck with the opening and fingers crossed that it opens

[00:56:22] in November.

[00:56:24] Um, and I, I don't know what it is.

[00:56:27] I just have a sneaking suspicion that, you know, a Michelin, I don't know the first thing

[00:56:31] about how they get tossed out of them, but I have a sneaking suspicion just based on

[00:56:35] how hard you work and your passion to this craft.

[00:56:38] And like, there's this undeniable confidence of it's going to happen.

[00:56:43] Like just, there's no doubt it's going to happen.

[00:56:45] It's a matter of when, not if that you'll have a Michelin star under your belt.

[00:56:49] So congrats on what you've done so far and best of luck in this journey and appreciate

[00:56:54] you, your time.

[00:56:56] And of course, our friends at Angel's Envy for helping to put this episode together and

[00:57:01] let's keep in touch.

[00:57:02] Let's do a part two.

[00:57:03] Once you, you know, once you get that Michelin star.

[00:57:06] Sounds good.

[00:57:06] Thank you so much.

[00:57:07] It's been an absolute pleasure.

[00:57:08] I appreciate you.

[00:57:09] Thank you so much.

[00:57:09] Thank you so much for listening, everybody.

[00:57:11] Thank you for tuning into this week's episode of the Gents Talk podcast.

[00:57:15] I'm your host, Samir Marani.

[00:57:17] And as you know, this week we sat down with Eric Chung, entrepreneur extraordinaire, chef,

[00:57:24] one of the youngest winners of MasterChef Canada, a father, a husband, and an incredible

[00:57:29] human being.

[00:57:30] It was such an inspiring conversation.

[00:57:33] And I'd like to take a moment to recap what we discussed in a quick episode reflection

[00:57:37] brought to you by our friends here at Angel's Envy, Canada's number one super premium

[00:57:44] bourbon.

[00:57:45] It was an incredible conversation with Eric from his inspiring journey to winning Master

[00:57:50] Chef Canada, to suddenly being thrust into a Michelin star restaurant halfway across the

[00:57:55] globe, to learning and overcoming the hardships and the challenges of wanting to balance being

[00:58:00] an entrepreneur, a chef, and then suddenly taking on the role of being a father and a husband

[00:58:06] and a partner and a friend and all of the different things happening in his life that are pulling

[00:58:11] him in a million directions.

[00:58:12] And I think we can all really relate to that.

[00:58:14] It's trying to understand how to become a better version of yourself while achieving the goals

[00:58:19] that you set out for yourself.

[00:58:20] That inspiring journey, one that, you know, I'm trying to figure out at the same time

[00:58:25] and I was learning from Eric as he was talking, is something that I think we can all relate

[00:58:29] to and want to pursue and push forward.

[00:58:32] But I'd like to take a moment now to thank you, the supporters, the subscribers, the fans, all of you.

[00:58:40] Every time you subscribe, follow, like, share, rate the podcast, it is such a tremendous help to what we're doing here.

[00:58:49] It allows us to bring in more incredible guests for more incredible conversations and keep giving you value week after week after week.

[00:58:57] Your support means the world to us and those simple interactions really help us grow.

[00:59:02] So thank you for being a part of that.

[00:59:05] And tune in next Monday at 2 p.m. Eastern for next week's episode right here on the Gents Talk podcast.

[00:59:12] Wherever you are in the world, thank you so much for your time and for sharing this journey with us.

[00:59:17] Thank you again to our friends at Angels Envy for making this special episode happen.

[00:59:24] Cheers.

[00:59:24] Cheers.