The Lessons They Don't Teach You in Business School: Charlie Chang | Ep.133 - Gent's Talk

[00:00:00] I build a billion dollar business. A lot of people, they make a mistake, if I build it, they'll come. But the pillar to success is going to be...

[00:00:11] Charlie Chang is an LA-based entrepreneur whose ventures include media, affiliate marketing and a recruiting agency.

[00:00:17] Charlie is also a content creator with 1.25 million subscribers on YouTube, where he helps people learn about business and finance.

[00:00:26] Charlie Chang, Quit your nine-to-five, go pursue this life of passion and success and be your own boss, fire your boss.

[00:00:32] Charlie Chang, Like all these different really cool slogans that you're like, yeah, I want that.

[00:00:35] Charlie Chang, Is that really realistic?

[00:00:36] Charlie Chang, Yeah, I think so. You just have to get good at...

[00:00:40] Charlie Chang, So even if they failed?

[00:00:42] Charlie Chang, I need to have those failures to have those successes. If I don't have those failures, I'm not going to be 100% successful at everything I do.

[00:00:50] Charlie Chang, What advice would you give people like myself, other people who are listening, watching this thinking, I want to do that too?

[00:00:55] Charlie Chang, What's a tangible first step? If you want to become financially successful, it's important to...

[00:01:17] Charlie, welcome to Gents Talk.

[00:01:19] Charlie Chang, Thanks for having me.

[00:01:20] Charlie Chang, I'm really excited to have this conversation with you.

[00:01:21] Charlie Chang, We're here in beautiful Los Angeles and this really cool space here.

[00:01:26] Thanks to our friends at Verbo for making it happen.

[00:01:28] But I wanted to ask you sort of right off the top, what would I need to know about Charlie in order to understand the man that's sitting beside me here?

[00:01:38] Charlie Chang, So I think just in context, my name is Charlie Chang. I'm 32 years old from Southern California.

[00:01:45] I consider myself an entrepreneur in the media content and staffing spaces.

[00:01:51] And yeah, I do a lot of content talking about finding your passion, building your own business, pursuing financial freedom, stuff like that.

[00:02:01] Charlie Chang, How long before... when did you start your entrepreneurship journey? Like was that always a thing or did you sort of...

[00:02:08] Charlie Chang, Looking back, I actually feel like it started a lot earlier than I originally thought.

[00:02:14] Charlie Chang, I was like six, seven, I was selling lemonade.

[00:02:18] Charlie Chang, I was selling candy in middle school, flipping stuff on eBay, stuff like that.

[00:02:23] So I'd say like I always had sort of like a entrepreneurial itch, but it wasn't until after I graduated college.

[00:02:32] That's when I really sort of took on that identity as entrepreneur.

[00:02:38] Yeah. And we were talking before we started rolling about the realities of entrepreneurship.

[00:02:46] You know, for a lot of us, myself included, you know, I go online and I see entrepreneur this, entrepreneur that, quit your nine to five, go pursue this life of passion and success.

[00:02:56] And, you know, be your own boss, fire your boss, like all these different really cool slogans that you're like, yeah, I want that.

[00:03:03] But then when I got into this world of entrepreneurship where I'm kind of just figuring things out as I go, I'm no longer doing the nine to five.

[00:03:10] I'm realizing that there's so many risks and pitfalls. I work a lot more. My work life balance is out the door.

[00:03:18] There are months where sometimes I'm like, did I make the right decision?

[00:03:23] You also said to me, you know, you're putting out content to sort of glamorize this idea of entrepreneurship.

[00:03:30] So what kind of entrepreneurship do you sort of aspire to build for yourself?

[00:03:38] And is that really realistic for everyone or is that like a subset of people who can only achieve that?

[00:03:43] Yeah. So I think everyone's definition of entrepreneurship is and should be different.

[00:03:48] There's people that want to just have some type of service based business where they they have like maybe they tutor, right?

[00:03:56] Like they tutor students and they tutor six hours a day and then call it quits.

[00:04:02] That's one definition. Another definition is building Facebook, right?

[00:04:06] Or like another tech giant like that. That's not what I'm trying to do at all.

[00:04:10] I have no, I don't, I can't do that.

[00:04:13] I'd say so. That would be nice. It would be nice.

[00:04:17] My definition of entrepreneurship for myself is somewhere in between that.

[00:04:24] Building something with a team that I truly love working with.

[00:04:29] Giving value to people in some certain way.

[00:04:32] And yeah, just not not having to work 24 seven, build a billion dollar business.

[00:04:40] I think it's all about balance for me.

[00:04:42] So how do you find the balance in between?

[00:04:44] Because I find, for example, I end up working a lot more than I ever thought I would.

[00:04:48] And I work a lot more than when I did when I had that nine to five.

[00:04:51] And when I speak to other creators, other entrepreneurs, they generally say the same thing.

[00:04:55] Like I'm just so much busier now than I've ever been.

[00:04:58] So I talk to creators and entrepreneurs all the time who are very much saying the same thing of they're just constantly challenged with finding that balance between, you know, how many hours they got to put in.

[00:05:09] Because when it's your own thing, you're kind of really committed.

[00:05:12] You're never really off.

[00:05:14] Right?

[00:05:14] Like your phone, you know, it's there.

[00:05:16] You might have your phone face down, but you're thinking about it.

[00:05:19] You might have your phone in the other room because I've tried that too.

[00:05:21] I'm thinking about all the emails coming through.

[00:05:23] And if I did that one more email, I could close that deal.

[00:05:25] I could do this thing.

[00:05:27] What's the secret there?

[00:05:28] How do you find your balance?

[00:05:29] I wish I knew perfectly.

[00:05:31] I'm still learning myself.

[00:05:32] But I think for me, I know that making a lot of money is important.

[00:05:41] Building a business is important.

[00:05:42] But like for everyone, your ultimate goal should be to live a fun and happy life.

[00:05:49] Right?

[00:05:49] I think that's like the general goal for most people.

[00:05:53] So how do you do that?

[00:05:54] How do you do it?

[00:05:56] How do I do it?

[00:05:56] Yeah.

[00:05:57] I just don't work that much.

[00:05:59] I think, okay.

[00:05:59] So I used to work a lot.

[00:06:01] I think I can sort of go through phases where if I'm building something new, I'm like super into it.

[00:06:07] I'm always thinking about it and then I'll get that going and then I'll sort of dip a little bit.

[00:06:13] Chill.

[00:06:13] I think I need those chill moments because if you don't have those, I think most people burn out.

[00:06:20] Do you sort of set reminders for yourself?

[00:06:23] Like some people time block their calendars.

[00:06:25] I guess I'm asking because I'm genuinely looking at ways to better improve my work life balance.

[00:06:30] Where I'm on for a certain amount of time and then when I'm off, I'm off.

[00:06:33] I'm not looking at emails.

[00:06:34] I'm not thinking about it.

[00:06:36] It's like turning off your brain from what you are doing.

[00:06:40] What you're describing sounds incredible.

[00:06:42] I really want that.

[00:06:43] Yeah.

[00:06:44] What advice would you give people like myself, other people who are listening, watching this thinking, I want to do that too.

[00:06:49] Maybe what's a tangible first step?

[00:06:51] Well, everyone has a different time of the day where they're the most productive.

[00:06:55] So, for me, I like to really wake up early and then I'll do my morning stretches or read and do my red light therapy.

[00:07:05] I'll then work for a little bit, like very deep, concentrated work, no distractions.

[00:07:11] Usually hit the gym after that, work after that.

[00:07:14] And then between like 11 and 7, I sort of do whatever and every single day is completely different.

[00:07:24] Sometimes I time block, sometimes I don't.

[00:07:27] I used to time block a lot, but right now it's a little bit more lax.

[00:07:31] And then after dinner, I like to work from like 7 until 9, then wind down.

[00:07:37] So that's what works for me.

[00:07:39] And you do that all week?

[00:07:41] Yeah.

[00:07:42] Do you do that on weekends?

[00:07:43] Yeah, every day is different, but that's like the general structure.

[00:07:47] So that still sounds like outside of you time at the gym, let's say, and the time that you're spending actually working.

[00:07:56] Where do you allocate or how do you find the time to allocate, you know, you to some of the other things that are happening in your life?

[00:08:04] Whether that's your partner, your family, your friends, your social life.

[00:08:07] Where do you fit all of those in?

[00:08:09] I do a lot of unproductive stuff.

[00:08:12] I was thinking the other day, I was like, dang, actually a lot of stuff I do is not super productive or entrepreneurial.

[00:08:19] Like I watch Netflix with my girlfriend a lot.

[00:08:22] We always watch or we always eat dinner and meals in front of the TV.

[00:08:26] And we usually will watch for a lot longer than what we're eating.

[00:08:31] I do that too.

[00:08:33] Hang out with friends.

[00:08:34] We will just sit on the couch.

[00:08:36] We'll just sort of not really do anything productive.

[00:08:39] You know, go to the beach.

[00:08:42] I work out a lot.

[00:08:43] Pickleball.

[00:08:44] So that downtime is extremely important.

[00:08:46] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:08:47] But I think every person like they need to go through this time of their life where it's not going to be like that.

[00:08:55] So I mean the first X years of my life or my entrepreneurial life, I don't think I had that balance nearly as much as I do now.

[00:09:05] I was really on that grind and I was doing that so I could sort of set myself up for the position that I'm in now.

[00:09:14] Could you have achieved what you've achieved now without doing that grind where you're just like sort of in that zone?

[00:09:22] I think so.

[00:09:24] It would just be a tick longer.

[00:09:26] Yeah.

[00:09:27] Was that ever an option for you or you just sort of set on I'm going to go hard at this from the beginning?

[00:09:33] I've always had a lot of anxiety around money as well as just not feeling successful enough.

[00:09:40] So I think I had pretty big like thing to prove to myself and to just I guess everyone around me.

[00:09:49] Why?

[00:09:51] So I went to college and my parents really wanted me to be a doctor.

[00:09:56] So I was good at science, went through that whole pre-med track, applied to med school, didn't get in.

[00:10:04] And so I didn't have a job after college.

[00:10:07] I started working for myself doing tutoring and a bunch of other side hustles.

[00:10:12] All of my friends, I went to UCLA by the way, and they all got really good jobs.

[00:10:18] Like big four accounting firms, things like that.

[00:10:21] They instantly started making a lot of money.

[00:10:25] You know, like they were doing things.

[00:10:27] I was just at home building these little things that my parents were like, Charlie, what are you doing?

[00:10:32] Like, is that going to amount to anything?

[00:10:36] And so I had a lot of stress over that.

[00:10:39] And for many years, it was just like me comparing myself to my peers just objectively on paper.

[00:10:47] I was they were far ahead of me.

[00:10:50] Yeah.

[00:10:50] So I think that's why I wanted to prove to myself, to them, to my parents that I could build something relatively fast.

[00:10:59] Was fast the key thing in that?

[00:11:02] It had to be fast?

[00:11:03] It didn't have to be fast, but it had to be at some point.

[00:11:06] So I think it still took me a good amount of time to start seeing some like actual success.

[00:11:13] Like maybe seven plus years until I was like, until my parents were probably like, oh, he's doing well.

[00:11:22] Seven plus years.

[00:11:23] Yeah.

[00:11:23] Which I think is such an important point right there is that it's not overnight.

[00:11:28] No.

[00:11:29] Despite what we see online.

[00:11:30] It's not overnight.

[00:11:31] Yeah.

[00:11:32] But you also said that you sometimes put out content of this dream of entrepreneurship.

[00:11:36] Yeah.

[00:11:37] Do you ever feel like a phony putting out content with one thing while your origin story told something different?

[00:11:45] I don't.

[00:11:46] I think a lot of the content I put out has that context.

[00:11:49] Okay.

[00:11:50] But of course, with sometimes short form content, you can't see everything.

[00:11:54] Yeah.

[00:11:54] Yeah.

[00:11:55] But I still think there's a lot of people out there who are in a similar position to me.

[00:12:00] Their parents want them to go down some normal career, doctor, accountant, scientist, lawyer, whatever.

[00:12:08] But they themselves had that itch to do something for themselves, like fulfill their own journey or build their own business.

[00:12:18] I think a lot of people, they just don't end up doing that.

[00:12:22] And I think it's a shame.

[00:12:24] Why?

[00:12:26] They'll be happier if they fall.

[00:12:29] So even if they failed, you think they'd be happier?

[00:12:32] Even if they fail?

[00:12:33] Yeah.

[00:12:33] I think everyone's going to fail if they go down the entrepreneurial journey.

[00:12:37] I feel that a lot of things.

[00:12:39] You just have to be okay feeling.

[00:12:40] What was the last time you failed at something?

[00:12:44] I mean, even right now, we're creating a bunch of different YouTube channels for my media business.

[00:12:49] Most of them are going to fail.

[00:12:52] Most videos, they get like under 50 views.

[00:12:56] But I know that if you do things enough times, if you try enough things, you've taken enough swings at bat, some of them are going to hit.

[00:13:05] And that's sort of my take on it.

[00:13:07] I think that's definitely been one of my advantages in life where I'm okay failing at a lot of things.

[00:13:15] Failure is important.

[00:13:16] It's one you learn the most.

[00:13:18] If I was a fly on the wall while you were sort of still building these businesses, while all of your peers were, to your point, making so much more money for all intents and purposes, so much more successful than you.

[00:13:35] There you were in your parents' house still trying to build out these little side hustles.

[00:13:40] If I was a fly on the wall, seeing you in that moment, stressed out about money, stressed out about where you were in life, what would I have seen?

[00:13:49] You would have seen me do a lot of learning.

[00:13:54] So reading on forums, watching a lot of YouTube videos, actually following a lot of people on social media.

[00:14:03] And then taking that knowledge and then almost immediately putting it to use.

[00:14:08] So like, if I learn about, let's say, how to do a e-commerce photoshoot, like with white background, I learned that, watched videos on it, and then I immediately do it for that brand that was starting.

[00:14:23] So I think it was a lot of learn and then immediately take some type of action.

[00:14:30] Discipline, obviously, is needed in that.

[00:14:33] Yeah.

[00:14:33] Were you always disciplined or did you have to learn it?

[00:14:35] I think I've been lucky to always have a good amount of discipline.

[00:14:40] Is that something that you can learn?

[00:14:43] Yeah, I think so.

[00:14:45] Some people are definitely born with more innate discipline.

[00:14:48] But I think you can train yourself to have more discipline for sure.

[00:14:53] So what would be an example of your most successful business?

[00:14:57] Because it seems like you have quite a bit on the go.

[00:14:59] What's an example of the most successful one you have?

[00:15:01] My most successful business as of right now is my media business.

[00:15:05] So we have a bunch of different YouTube channels.

[00:15:08] And my biggest YouTube channel is just called Charlie Chang.

[00:15:12] I think we're at 1.2 million subscribers on YouTube.

[00:15:16] Wow, congrats.

[00:15:17] Thank you.

[00:15:17] What's the secret?

[00:15:19] Honestly, I just, I started that channel not trying to make money.

[00:15:22] I was very, like I said, a lot of anxiety about money.

[00:15:27] So I cared about investing, making my money grow, being frugal, all that stuff.

[00:15:32] Side hustles, making money.

[00:15:34] And so I just started making videos about it.

[00:15:36] Like super, like blending my love of photo and video, which I've been doing for a long time,

[00:15:42] with that type of interest.

[00:15:44] I just put out a lot of content.

[00:15:46] Yeah.

[00:15:48] So what was the moment where you felt, okay, this is now working.

[00:15:54] All that hard work is now justified.

[00:15:58] I've made something of myself.

[00:16:00] I made something of myself.

[00:16:02] Oh man.

[00:16:04] Probably at the start of the pandemic.

[00:16:09] So I'd say maybe April, May of the pandemic.

[00:16:15] That's when my YouTube channel started to really take off.

[00:16:18] Before this, I'd done like a bunch of stuff.

[00:16:21] They'd done okay, but not like parabolic or exponential.

[00:16:27] So it really felt like at that time I was like here and then it started to go like that.

[00:16:33] At that time during the shutdowns, I was, I had nothing to do.

[00:16:38] Right.

[00:16:38] So I literally made almost one YouTube video per day on my channel.

[00:16:43] And then my channel really started to take off.

[00:16:46] And then I sort of, yeah, that was the, basically the origins of the success of my YouTube career.

[00:16:54] Yeah.

[00:16:54] And how do you, so there's this common theme of, you know, once you've achieved a measure of success,

[00:17:01] you kind of take your foot off the gas.

[00:17:03] You're not as hungry anymore because you finally hit that mark that you wanted to.

[00:17:08] Did that ever happen to you?

[00:17:10] Do you ever find that you're like, all right, well, I kind of hit the thing that I wanted to hit.

[00:17:13] So I can finally take a little bit of a break.

[00:17:16] Yes. A little bit.

[00:17:17] I'd say right now I'm less like, I'm less driven by that anxiety and like wanting to prove myself to people.

[00:17:27] So it definitely is less than before.

[00:17:29] But I think it's just, I'm always going to be wanting to work on new things and build new things.

[00:17:35] Yeah.

[00:17:36] I listened to a podcast once that talked about, you know, when you talk, when you say things like I was driven by my anxiety, something called negative fuel, where you take a negative emotion and you turn that into fuel.

[00:17:48] And that's what fuels you to go further. And it can be a good thing in some ways, but could also be a bad thing because it could drive you crazy in some ways.

[00:17:56] Like you're just like, I can't stop. I have to keep going. Otherwise it's the end of the world.

[00:18:00] Yeah. Like I have this irrational fear that I'm always one bad decision away from being completely financially ruined makes no sense.

[00:18:07] And I'm aware that it's irrational, but it's what drives me.

[00:18:10] This constant idea of if I don't do this now tonight at the latest tomorrow morning, like that's it. I'm screwed.

[00:18:19] Were you able to leverage that anxiety or that stress around money and turn that into fuel for what you're doing? And if it's no longer the case today, what is motivating you?

[00:18:32] I definitely was able to take that. Luckily, I'd say the desire to prove to, especially my parents, that I could do something.

[00:18:46] That was a big driver for me. I did go through some, you know, pretty hard times after college where I get it, like my parents, they're from China.

[00:18:58] They don't know so much about like the business world and all the different ways you can make money that isn't as traditional.

[00:19:05] So they were extremely worried about me.

[00:19:09] I think my mom stopped sending me job postings like just a few years ago.

[00:19:15] So she's always been like, hey, you should do this or check this out. Check out this opportunity.

[00:19:22] And we had years where it was definitely a bit of a struggle with my family because my sister was doing great.

[00:19:29] I was still like trying a bunch of stuff and they, I don't know if they didn't believe in me, but there was just not that much support.

[00:19:41] And were you ever able to have that conversation with them?

[00:19:45] Yeah, we've sort of had that conversation. Asian families aren't very good at communicating those types of things.

[00:19:53] I don't know. I think it's just part of the culture.

[00:19:55] I've heard it before.

[00:19:56] Yeah. Like we, we didn't really say I love you much. We never talked about emotions.

[00:20:01] If something was bothering us, we would just, you know, stuff it in the jar and then go to your room, wait a day, and then you'll forget about it.

[00:20:10] I never really forget about it.

[00:20:12] Yeah, you don't. Yeah. So I think those things build up.

[00:20:17] That's definitely one of the bad parts about Asian culture.

[00:20:23] Do you ever try to have that conversation with your parents now?

[00:20:26] We have definitely more open conversations. We have more, there's more emotion being communicated.

[00:20:34] Who led that?

[00:20:35] I'd say probably me.

[00:20:40] I started going to therapy about two or three years ago.

[00:20:46] And that really taught me that, hey, it's normal to talk about this type of stuff.

[00:20:51] I hear a lot of the deficits that you had or that were present in your childhood regarding communication with your family.

[00:20:58] And it just made me more comfortable to talk about it.

[00:21:01] So I think that helped a lot.

[00:21:02] When did you hit the 1 million subscribers?

[00:21:05] That was maybe 2022-ish.

[00:21:11] So at that point you're on the rise.

[00:21:15] You're seeing tangible external results to all the hard work that you've put into it.

[00:21:21] By all intents and purposes, you should be happy, but you decided you're going to go to therapy.

[00:21:25] What triggered that decision?

[00:21:27] I'm gonna be honest. It was my girlfriend.

[00:21:29] Okay.

[00:21:30] So we first started going to couples therapy just to help us be able to communicate better in our own relationship.

[00:21:37] That's definitely something that I've never been good at, both with my family as well as with her.

[00:21:42] So that was helpful.

[00:21:44] And then shortly after that, I started doing my own therapy.

[00:21:47] Well, you started, I presume, you just basically were able to see some of the benefits of having a third party, like a professional being able to go,

[00:21:55] here are some things that you might be doing that you're not even aware that you're doing.

[00:21:58] Yeah. And like, I think that for any type of thing you want to get good at, you need to talk about it a lot, right?

[00:22:05] If you want to become financially successful, it's important to have those types of conversations with your network, your friends, whatever.

[00:22:12] If you want to get good at communicating emotions, you have to talk about it a lot.

[00:22:16] So it gives me a set time and place where I can talk about it every single week.

[00:22:22] And that's, it's been really good.

[00:22:24] Was there an initial resistance to going to therapy?

[00:22:28] Yeah.

[00:22:28] With your girlfriend? I presume there was.

[00:22:30] I mean, yeah, it costs money. It takes time.

[00:22:32] So all thinking like an entrepreneur.

[00:22:34] Yeah. It took some time for her to convince me, but I am glad that she was able to push you in there.

[00:22:40] Yeah. So, you know, without telling me what happened in your therapy sessions, because obviously that's private, but going into the, into that office that very first time, maybe what was going through your mind?

[00:22:51] In terms of like my personal sessions?

[00:22:53] Yeah. Or both, like just sort of your first experience with it.

[00:22:56] And the reason I'm asking is because you've eloquently talked about how, you know, you have to talk about your emotions if you want to be successful in anything you do, not just business, but in your relationships, in life with your parents, et cetera.

[00:23:08] And there's still a lot of men out there that hear that and go, nope, can't do it.

[00:23:13] It's hard. Right.

[00:23:14] It's very hard.

[00:23:14] I remember the first time I went to therapy, I was like, I'm like, firstly, you're asking me to pay you to tell you about how I feel like this is a scam.

[00:23:22] Yeah.

[00:23:23] And then secondly, now I got to sit there, tell you all of these things. And now you've got to diagnose me or talk to me. And I'm like, I'm not even sure I'm comfortable with my own feelings,

[00:23:32] right?

[00:23:32] I'm listening to you. Tell me about them.

[00:23:33] It's super out of most people's comfort zones, especially men, I think. But I think that's where all the gains are outside your comfort zone.

[00:23:42] Why do you think it's still a struggle for men? Like we're in 2024 going into 2025 and it's still a taboo subject for so many people.

[00:23:53] It's part of the culture. I think men don't, men view it as being weak. I think it's still like you get that taboo, right?

[00:24:04] And it's just really hard. I think men are just not, they don't need to talk about emotions as much as, you know, whoever else. But yeah, that's...

[00:24:17] Is it that we don't need to talk about them or that we've never really been taught how to talk about them?

[00:24:23] I think it's both. I think men are better at stuffing it in the jar and they'll do better at that than women.

[00:24:31] Yeah.

[00:24:33] But at some point the jar...

[00:24:37] Overflows.

[00:24:40] So someone's listening to this, watching this, hears you talk about this. They see sort of the, they see your social media success.

[00:24:47] They see your business success. They go, you know, they are where Charlie was six, seven years ago.

[00:24:53] They're starting out on their journey and they're hearing all of this.

[00:24:56] What's one piece of advice you would give them as they're starting out?

[00:25:01] In particular for this question around sort of regulating their emotions, getting in check with how they're feeling about things like that anxiety with money, the stress with money.

[00:25:11] You may have been fortunate in that you've been able to turn that into negative fuel and made it work for you.

[00:25:17] But there's going to be tons of people out there that it just consumes them and they can never get past it.

[00:25:21] Yeah. I know not everyone has the luxury of, you know, doing therapy is quite expensive.

[00:25:26] Maybe your insurance will cover it.

[00:25:28] But if it doesn't, I think it's super important to have friends that you can talk to.

[00:25:36] Yeah.

[00:25:38] Obviously it's better to talk to a therapist because they're trained to take in that information and, you know, talk to you.

[00:25:44] But if you can't talk to a therapist, talk with your friends, share things with them that like just be more vulnerable.

[00:25:54] I think that's, that's very important.

[00:25:56] See, I'm a believer that leading with vulnerability is actually a strength.

[00:26:00] It's not a weakness.

[00:26:01] Oh yeah. That's so hard to do.

[00:26:03] Did it take you a long time to finally come to that same conclusion?

[00:26:07] Um, when I'm saying it to you now, you're just like, it's an obvious like, yeah, of course.

[00:26:11] But there was a time where Charlie was like, no.

[00:26:13] Oh yeah. I never shared stuff with anyone.

[00:26:16] So here you are sharing it with a stranger.

[00:26:18] Yeah, that's, it's important.

[00:26:20] Uh, I think a lot of people, especially if they're starting out in their entrepreneurial journey, they're like, I want to work for myself and build a business, whatever.

[00:26:29] Um, they're going to go through a very challenging few years, probably at least for me, it was, you know, more than that, where you feel lost.

[00:26:40] You feel like the inputs you're putting in aren't creating any outputs.

[00:26:44] Um, you're going to, you're going to have other struggles like relationship stuff, um, anxiety about certain things.

[00:26:55] And yeah, you will go through that.

[00:26:59] So it's just important to not let that marinate in yourself, like share with others.

[00:27:07] Yeah.

[00:27:07] It's you talked about, I want to go back a moment to the failures piece, because I'm fascinated by the idea of what you can learn from your failures.

[00:27:16] You're starting out on a business, you're building it.

[00:27:18] It's not going so well.

[00:27:20] At what point do you just say, this is not working?

[00:27:25] That's a tough one.

[00:27:26] It's going to depend on the business, but I think as long as you learn a lot from whatever you're trying to start, and you can take those lessons and put in something that you're more passionate about, then it's okay to leave.

[00:27:40] I've done that a lot.

[00:27:41] Sure.

[00:27:42] Maybe some of those things that I left early could turn into better businesses, but I took those lessons and I did something which at the time I felt more aligned with.

[00:27:53] And eventually it worked out.

[00:27:54] What was one of the biggest lessons you had learned from one of those businesses that you just had to walk away from, fold up, like this is not working, I got to move on.

[00:28:04] What was maybe the biggest lesson you've learned from those?

[00:28:07] So I started an athleisure company, like clothing company.

[00:28:12] And I put in about $20,000, $25,000 of my own money, which is, it's a lot of money, but at the time it was like a lot of money for me.

[00:28:20] That's a lot of money for a lot of people, yeah.

[00:28:22] And I lost, I think, pretty much all of it.

[00:28:25] The biggest lesson I learned from that was marketing is the most important thing.

[00:28:30] Like I spent all the time doing things like my website, which I guess is kind of marketing, but not really.

[00:28:38] Designs, going to the factories, you know, making sure the clothes were good.

[00:28:43] I didn't spend anything on the marketing part.

[00:28:48] And that's, that's why I failed.

[00:28:51] So literally with that, every business I start now, it's like marketing is at the top of the list in terms of priority.

[00:28:59] Hmm.

[00:29:00] There's no point doing all of that if nobody knows it exists.

[00:29:03] Yeah.

[00:29:03] If you're, if you're a solid person, you'll, you'll make a good product, right?

[00:29:07] And it'll get better over time.

[00:29:08] But I think a lot of people, they make the mistake of like, if I build it, they'll come, but they won't.

[00:29:14] It's just unfortunate because, and, uh,

[00:29:17] Well, you're not the only, only one building.

[00:29:19] Yeah.

[00:29:19] Something like that.

[00:29:20] There's a lot of other people building stuff.

[00:29:22] Um, if you, if you have a good product, you need to make it known.

[00:29:26] You're like, you're doing other people service by making it known.

[00:29:29] So for my, I'll give them the example of my most recent, like bigger business.

[00:29:35] Um, so it's an overseas staffing company and we started from scratch with $2,000, I believe.

[00:29:42] Um, from day one, it was all about marketing.

[00:29:46] So we would just literally make a ton of informational videos and posts and things like that, giving value to our target audience.

[00:29:54] Um, I think that is like one of the biggest formulas, any type of service based business can do even like a SAS company or whatever is to make informational educational, uh, tutorials or how to's or advice that your target audience would want to hear.

[00:30:15] If you do that, they'll trust you.

[00:30:18] They'll, they'll come to you and then they'll use your service.

[00:30:20] There really is something about providing value to the person on the receiving end.

[00:30:25] I remember anytime I would create something for a product, a business or anything like that, I would always think to myself how this shows me versus thinking about how the person on the receiving end receives that information.

[00:30:37] And this, I think can apply to basically like any, any different venture that you're a part of, anything that you do, not even just a business product.

[00:30:45] But if you're an educator, if you're a spokesperson, no matter what you are, you have to provide value to someone in order for it to resonate.

[00:30:53] A hundred percent.

[00:30:54] I think most people, they think social media is entertaining, right?

[00:30:58] It's like to entertain people.

[00:31:00] It's not always that.

[00:31:01] Um, some people are going to be better entertainers than educators, but at least for me, I'm not funny.

[00:31:07] I'm not like, I'm not an entertainer.

[00:31:09] So the value that I give is more in terms of like the information or maybe like some inspiration or stuff like that.

[00:31:20] The idea of trying to successfully build a business, there's so many pitfalls and hurdles that you're going to come across.

[00:31:28] And there's so many times where I'm confident you're probably sitting at your computer just thinking, you know, this is not working.

[00:31:34] That deal didn't close all these sort of negative things that are happening.

[00:31:39] You're putting out all of these fires.

[00:31:42] How do you maintain a positive attitude as you're sort of shoveling away all this crap that's being thrown at you as you're trying to build this product, this business?

[00:31:52] Um, you just have to get good at not caring.

[00:31:56] I don't know how to, I think maybe the best way to do that is just to go out there and fail a lot or encounter a lot of hardship.

[00:32:05] That's probably the best.

[00:32:08] Because yeah, if you do enough inputs, you're going to like volume negates luck, right?

[00:32:16] Like if you do a lot of something, you're going to, one of them is going to hit.

[00:32:21] And I think that's going to apply to pretty much everyone watching this video.

[00:32:26] It's a numbers game.

[00:32:27] Yeah, it's a numbers game.

[00:32:28] It's like just taking more shots at the lottery except you're trying to curb out the luck factor and just trying to be consistent.

[00:32:35] Yeah. And like in the moment, it doesn't seem fun, right?

[00:32:39] When you're, there's a big issue or something, but when you look back on it later on, you're going to be like, well, that was, I'm glad I went through that.

[00:32:47] I learned this.

[00:32:48] Um, it made me stronger.

[00:32:50] And yeah.

[00:32:51] So if let's say for example, when was the last time you had a moment where you're just like shits hitting the fan?

[00:32:56] I'm frustrated beyond belief with everything that's happening.

[00:32:59] Hmm.

[00:33:00] And what did you do to come out of that?

[00:33:03] Okay, let me think.

[00:33:07] So maybe, okay.

[00:33:09] So maybe I'd say with my media company, we're starting a bunch of new channels.

[00:33:13] Mm-hmm.

[00:33:14] And I just remember when they'd been looking through all the channels that we were starting, they had like no views.

[00:33:21] And I was, I was like, I'm investing a lot of time and money into building these channels with literally zero, zero results, right?

[00:33:31] Um, very low views.

[00:33:33] One of the channels had like 14 subscribers after a couple months.

[00:33:38] And I was like, am I actually in the right direction with this?

[00:33:43] Um, but then I was like, okay, I know that I go into things knowing like it's okay that some of these will fail.

[00:33:52] And maybe that's going to be one of the channels that fails.

[00:33:55] Um, and if it is, that's fine because I need to have those failures to have those successes.

[00:34:02] If I don't have those failures, I'm not going to be a hundred percent successful at everything I do.

[00:34:06] There's no way, right?

[00:34:08] So just part of the whole process.

[00:34:10] Is there something that you, that you do in that moment?

[00:34:13] Like, do you step away from everything?

[00:34:15] Do you journal?

[00:34:16] Do you go for a walk?

[00:34:17] I'm fascinated by what people do, specifically entrepreneurs, because when I'm in that zone where something's not going well and I'm getting frustrated,

[00:34:25] sometimes I find myself frozen.

[00:34:27] Mm-hmm.

[00:34:28] Like I can't, I can't, I know I'm stuck and I can't mentally pull myself out of it.

[00:34:33] Yeah.

[00:34:34] Um, for me, I think I just sort of tell myself and it seems to be okay, but it's because I do a lot of other things that I think help me release energy.

[00:34:44] Like I exercise almost every day.

[00:34:46] Uh, I think if I didn't do that, I probably would not react as well.

[00:34:50] Mm-hmm.

[00:34:51] Well, that blood flow stimulation, the breath, it forces you to improve your breathing, which I suspect is also part of when you're going through something, you're able to breathe better and stay focused.

[00:35:01] Yeah, yeah.

[00:35:02] The friends that you talked about a little bit earlier, the ones that were, or your peers who were by all accounts more successful than you,

[00:35:10] do you still feel today that you don't measure up to them because they care, they still hold that traditional job, making good money by all intents and purposes are successful from the outside?

[00:35:22] Um, I don't really view it like that.

[00:35:25] Um, like, I guess the question is, do you still compare yourself to them?

[00:35:29] I still compare myself to them.

[00:35:31] Oh, hmm.

[00:35:33] That's a good question.

[00:35:35] I really try to compare myself less to people these days than before.

[00:35:40] I think before I was very externally motivated and I compare myself to, to X person or whatever.

[00:35:50] And these days I know that's like, you're not going to win doing that, right?

[00:35:57] Mm-hmm.

[00:35:57] There's always going to be someone that's doing better than you or whatever.

[00:36:01] They're, everyone that I like to hang out with or talk to, they're all successful in their own way.

[00:36:07] It doesn't have to be like business or money or whatever.

[00:36:11] They're all unique people with their own success.

[00:36:14] So I don't like to compare that type of stuff.

[00:36:18] It's funny because the, one of the game changers for me when it's come to comparison, because I do that all the time.

[00:36:26] You know, how many views did this podcast episode get?

[00:36:29] How many subscribers does it have relative to these other podcasters, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:36:34] And I've started to change slowly because I still fall into the trap, but slowly I've been shifting my thinking into comparing myself to me yesterday,

[00:36:43] the day before, the week before, the month before, the year before.

[00:36:45] That's where we do it. Yeah.

[00:36:47] Because in reality, outside of like the few minutes that I'm looking at what other people are doing,

[00:36:54] most of the time I'm internal.

[00:36:56] Mm-hmm.

[00:36:57] So instead of just worrying about what I'm, what I think other people might think of me,

[00:37:02] I'm just focusing on what I did and have I made progress.

[00:37:06] And if I've made progress and I'm moving forward, because it's easy to get lost in that.

[00:37:10] Yeah. I think that's something that I learned a lot in therapy.

[00:37:13] It's that, that, that inner, um, inner motivation, inner confidence, right?

[00:37:18] Before I was so externally, like motivated or whatever.

[00:37:23] Um, it's so important to have that within yourself because if you don't, then you're always going to be subject to what other people are going to think.

[00:37:33] Yeah.

[00:37:34] And you, you'll never really have any control over how you feel.

[00:37:38] So that, that inner self confidence, I think is so important.

[00:37:41] Do you still go to therapy in a proactive manner?

[00:37:46] Or do you just go whenever there's something you need to work through?

[00:37:49] It's always proactive.

[00:37:51] Always proactive. Okay.

[00:37:52] It's every week.

[00:37:53] Um, I think it's very important to set like scheduled things, especially things that people don't want to do.

[00:38:00] Right.

[00:38:01] It could be, if you don't like working out, it's very important to set a set time or schedule for your workouts.

[00:38:06] Yeah.

[00:38:07] Like, do I enjoy therapy?

[00:38:10] Probably not.

[00:38:11] I want to sit down for an hour and like talk about my feelings.

[00:38:15] Um, but that's why it's so important that I schedule it every single week.

[00:38:19] I don't have to think about, I don't be like, Hey, can we schedule something?

[00:38:23] It's just, it's there.

[00:38:24] It's there.

[00:38:24] Yeah.

[00:38:25] So as long as it's already set, it's like, it's part of your routine.

[00:38:28] Part of your routine.

[00:38:28] Yeah.

[00:38:29] It's like a habit.

[00:38:29] Yeah.

[00:38:30] Now it's just a habit.

[00:38:31] Like I know every week on Wednesday, I have therapy.

[00:38:34] But it's so important because now you're able to get ahead of things before they manifest into something bigger.

[00:38:39] Yeah.

[00:38:39] Like it could be something small that if left untamed can grow into some really big problem.

[00:38:44] And then suddenly you've got a full blown emotional crisis.

[00:38:47] Yeah.

[00:38:47] That you could have resolved if you just went to therapy a month ago.

[00:38:50] True.

[00:38:50] And most of the things we talk about, it's not like something that just came up.

[00:38:54] Like sometimes it is, but a lot of it's just working the last 30 years of my life, right?

[00:39:00] Going through all that stuff.

[00:39:01] Do you find it's hard to tell, I mean, you seem confident to share that with me,

[00:39:06] but do you find it challenging to share that with your peers, your friends, your family that,

[00:39:12] Hey, I go see a therapist weekly.

[00:39:14] Um, initially a little bit, but right now I think it's like, I like doing things that are outside

[00:39:23] most people's comfort zones and that's definitely one of them.

[00:39:26] I don't know.

[00:39:26] It's just, I've always been like that.

[00:39:29] Yeah.

[00:39:29] Yeah.

[00:39:30] So I take pride in the fact that I'm able to be so consistent with something that not

[00:39:37] a lot of people like doing.

[00:39:39] Yeah.

[00:39:40] Yeah.

[00:39:41] If you can, if you can go back in time to Charlie seven years ago, when you were first

[00:39:49] starting out in all of these things, when you were at your sort of lowest with this idea of

[00:39:54] comparing to your peers and thinking about what your family thinks of you and the stress

[00:39:59] of money and all those things, if you can go back in time and talk to Charlie, then knowing

[00:40:05] what you know today, what piece of advice would you give him?

[00:40:11] I would say, try and find friends that are trying to do what you're trying to do.

[00:40:17] So at that time I didn't have any entrepreneur friends.

[00:40:21] And so what I was doing seems super weird and not like real.

[00:40:27] Like I wasn't working a job that was for me and my peers and my parents that a job was

[00:40:33] or a career was the only thing that was like working towards something doing these side

[00:40:37] hustles didn't count.

[00:40:39] Right.

[00:40:39] It was just like something to get by.

[00:40:41] So I think if I had more friends and a better network to bounce these ideas off of and sort

[00:40:46] of feel like I was actually like improving myself and working towards something that would

[00:40:53] have been, that would have been very, very good.

[00:40:55] And I think a lot of people, they probably, they might not have that type of support from

[00:41:02] their parents or from their close friends.

[00:41:04] It's really important to, to talk to people that are trying to do what you're trying to

[00:41:09] do.

[00:41:10] It's hard though, because sometimes you have to outgrow those friends and it's not because

[00:41:15] you don't care about them or you don't like them.

[00:41:17] It's just that you're now operating on different wavelengths.

[00:41:20] Yeah.

[00:41:21] Yeah.

[00:41:21] And they can get resentful at times.

[00:41:24] Yeah.

[00:41:24] I think that does happen, but you just have to do it.

[00:41:27] I think like the benefits far outweigh the negatives.

[00:41:30] Do you have anybody in your life or in general, you don't have to get specific here, but where

[00:41:37] they'll look at the success you've achieved and because you're so busy, they say something

[00:41:43] like, you know, you don't make time for me anymore because you're so busy.

[00:41:47] Mr.

[00:41:47] Big shot being an entrepreneur, a successful one.

[00:41:49] I've had entrepreneurs say that to me quite more often than not.

[00:41:54] You know, they're one of the things that drags them down or makes them feel heavy inside is

[00:41:58] this idea that their peers, their friends, even their family will look at them and go,

[00:42:03] Oh, suddenly you're too busy for me.

[00:42:06] Um, I'm sure, I'm sure some of them think it.

[00:42:09] I don't think I've ever really experienced that like firsthand, but I like to, I like to

[00:42:16] make sure that not all my friends are entrepreneurs.

[00:42:19] I think that's also bad.

[00:42:22] Yeah.

[00:42:22] Why?

[00:42:23] You get stuck in like a bubble.

[00:42:25] Um, you know, you see this with politics, especially the social media.

[00:42:30] Everyone's feed is stuff that they believe in and they sort of think like everyone's like

[00:42:34] that.

[00:42:35] Same thing with entrepreneurship.

[00:42:36] I know that entrepreneurship, um, trying people that, you know, care about building financial

[00:42:42] success.

[00:42:43] It's not everyone.

[00:42:44] Um, I'm sort of in that own bubble myself.

[00:42:47] So it's important to not only be in that bubble.

[00:42:51] Yeah.

[00:42:52] Yeah.

[00:42:53] I got one more question for you here.

[00:42:55] One piece of advice that you can give to entrepreneurs, doesn't matter what stage they're at, but one thing

[00:43:00] that you carry forward with you that you're like, this is a pillar to my success and what makes me excel as an entrepreneur.

[00:43:09] What is that thing?

[00:43:11] The pillar to success is going to be marketing.

[00:43:16] Okay.

[00:43:17] I think, yeah, it's, it's a dumb answer and it's not like, no, it's a sexy answer.

[00:43:21] But, um, if you can market well and you have decent, like ability, you'll build a good product.

[00:43:33] Um, the marketing is just, that's the biggest thing.

[00:43:36] Yeah.

[00:43:37] Amazing.

[00:43:38] Charlie, thanks so much for your time.

[00:43:39] Thank you for having me.

[00:43:40] Really good to meet you here.

[00:43:41] Thank you so much.

[00:43:42] Thank you.

[00:43:43] Thank you so much, everybody.