Pro Poker Player Shares Tips On How To Read People: Daniel Negreanu | Ep 98 - Gent's Talk

[00:00:00] So Toby Maguire, I was playing with him in California once.

[00:00:03] We were just playing in a cash game and there was a spot where he bet like actual cash.

[00:00:08] He bet all his money and I started counting out my money, you know, like I was going

[00:00:11] to call him and then he grabbed his cards to turn them over.

[00:00:14] Right?

[00:00:15] So what that tells you is he's excited to show his hand because he's got a very good

[00:00:20] hand.

[00:00:21] Right.

[00:00:22] That's what you would think.

[00:00:23] So he was about and I was no, I didn't call yet.

[00:00:24] I didn't call you.

[00:00:25] Oh, this.

[00:00:26] So I'm like, OK, well, I know I can't beat that.

[00:00:27] So I fold.

[00:00:28] He shows me a complete block.

[00:00:49] Firstly, Daniel, welcome to the Gents Talk pod.

[00:00:51] Yeah, right.

[00:00:52] Yeah.

[00:00:53] Yeah.

[00:00:54] I have been a big fan of yours for a very long time.

[00:00:56] I'm going to admit that right off the top here.

[00:00:58] When I first started watching poker on television, it was you and a few others.

[00:01:03] But your personality was the thing that caught my attention.

[00:01:07] And I was when I found out that you were Canadian, I was like, OK, cool.

[00:01:10] Now I have even more reason to root for you.

[00:01:13] How long have you been playing?

[00:01:14] What was the story there?

[00:01:15] When did you start?

[00:01:17] Let's maybe bring it back for a second.

[00:01:19] Yeah, well, first of all, it's cool to be back in Toronto because this was my stomping

[00:01:22] ground.

[00:01:23] I was born and raised in Toronto.

[00:01:24] I was a Toronto boy.

[00:01:25] I used to read the newspaper and see Bob McCown with his like betting lines and odds.

[00:01:30] And so I got into that sort of life.

[00:01:32] And I just started playing here with friends and things like that.

[00:01:35] And they used to have charity casinos around the city.

[00:01:37] Then I used to go every three days, the Chima Hotel or all these different little

[00:01:42] spots and started to play regularly.

[00:01:43] And I was making like $45 an hour.

[00:01:46] Right.

[00:01:47] And I was in school at the time, but I'm like, hey, you know, I'm doing pretty good.

[00:01:52] The school can wait.

[00:01:53] And so I just, you know, just devoted my time to it and I wanted to be great at

[00:01:57] it.

[00:01:58] And I think like most things in life, if you really, really want to be successful,

[00:02:01] sometimes it requires like sacrifices in other areas.

[00:02:04] You know, so I just eat, breathe sleep poker until I, you know, made some trips

[00:02:08] out to Vegas that did not go well, to say the least for like the first year,

[00:02:13] because I'm a hometown hero guy, right?

[00:02:14] I'm like, I'm going to come in Vegas.

[00:02:16] I'm going to smack these guys around.

[00:02:17] No, no, no.

[00:02:18] They've seen hometown heroes before.

[00:02:20] They, you know, chew them up and spit them out.

[00:02:22] And I was no different at the time.

[00:02:24] So I had a lot of a lot to learn still.

[00:02:26] How did you, I'm curious because, you know, to go in with such ego and pride

[00:02:31] and being like, you know, I'm the shit, I can do this.

[00:02:33] And then getting smacked around as you called it.

[00:02:36] How is that humbling experience?

[00:02:37] It was important.

[00:02:39] You know, I look at it this way, like in life in general, right?

[00:02:43] Moments where you have suffering and pain are the most valuable moments,

[00:02:46] the breakdowns if you will, because they lead to breakthroughs over life.

[00:02:49] You're like, okay, I need to fix this, adjust this.

[00:02:51] And I remember one specific moment, one of the first trips I went there.

[00:02:54] You know, I was playing all night.

[00:02:55] It was like four in the morning.

[00:02:56] I just lost all my money.

[00:02:57] I was playing with seven people, right?

[00:02:58] Went to the bathroom, you know, washed my hands, come out.

[00:03:02] They're all gone.

[00:03:03] They left.

[00:03:04] And I was like, wow, it dawned on me.

[00:03:06] They were only playing because of me.

[00:03:09] I was the sucker.

[00:03:10] And I tell you, I remember every single one of those faces, right?

[00:03:13] Every single one of them, this guy, Hawaiian Bill.

[00:03:15] I couldn't stand him, right?

[00:03:16] After a while, he became sort of a mentor to me.

[00:03:19] Okay.

[00:03:19] So I started to learn that like I came in like a bull in a china shop, right?

[00:03:23] Because in Toronto, that worked.

[00:03:24] I could just pound people.

[00:03:25] Yeah.

[00:03:25] They knew how to pound back and I wasn't accustomed to that.

[00:03:29] So it was a very important learning experience.

[00:03:31] I think like you look at some of the most successful people

[00:03:34] in a lot of different avenues.

[00:03:36] One of the things that's common with them is tons of failure.

[00:03:39] Lots of it.

[00:03:40] Lots of bankruptcies, failures before hitting it big.

[00:03:43] I think that's a pretty common practice.

[00:03:45] It's those people that have learning moments there

[00:03:48] that are able to sort of be resilient and say, okay, well, that didn't work.

[00:03:52] Here's what we're going to adjust and change.

[00:03:53] When you talk about failure and bankruptcy and all those things,

[00:03:56] those are very daunting things.

[00:03:58] And I think for a lot of new players in the poker space

[00:04:01] or when you talk about people who are just trying, they're interested,

[00:04:04] they just want to get into it.

[00:04:06] There's that fear of, oh my God, it's gambling.

[00:04:09] I'm going to lose all my money.

[00:04:10] I don't know what I'm doing.

[00:04:12] But when you also have real conversations with a lot of poker players,

[00:04:17] there's more to it than just blind gambling.

[00:04:19] You're not going to a roulette table at the casino and saying,

[00:04:22] I'm putting my money on this type of thing.

[00:04:25] Maybe can we sort of pull the curtain back on poker as a whole

[00:04:29] and what new players could maybe expect from it?

[00:04:32] Well, you bring up a good point with the sort of roulette stuff

[00:04:35] because when you play roulette, who's your opponent?

[00:04:37] The casino.

[00:04:38] They don't lose.

[00:04:40] Come on, they don't lose.

[00:04:41] Now poker is different.

[00:04:42] If you and me, we play poker at the casino.

[00:04:44] I'm not playing against casino.

[00:04:45] I play against you.

[00:04:47] They charge me rent for the seat.

[00:04:49] So I got to pay whatever I pay,

[00:04:51] but it's my wit against your wit.

[00:04:53] And they don't really care who wins.

[00:04:54] So this is an environment where you can actually win.

[00:04:56] And when you talk about gambling as a whole,

[00:04:58] everyone sees, oh, you're just gambling.

[00:05:00] What do you think the stock market is?

[00:05:02] You invest money in some.

[00:05:04] What do you think when you open a restaurant,

[00:05:06] what exactly are you doing here?

[00:05:08] You are putting a lot of money into something, right?

[00:05:10] Gambling on the hope that your food

[00:05:13] is gonna be value enough to people

[00:05:14] and people will come and eat it.

[00:05:15] What happens if they don't?

[00:05:16] Well, guess what?

[00:05:17] You lose all your money.

[00:05:18] So when you get married, right?

[00:05:21] You're taking a risk.

[00:05:22] This is gonna work out fine

[00:05:23] and half your money's still gonna be there by the end.

[00:05:26] Literally, you can look at almost every profession

[00:05:29] and realize there's risk at some point

[00:05:30] and that's gambling.

[00:05:31] With poker, it sort of has that connotation

[00:05:33] because it's straight gambling, if you will.

[00:05:36] But again, look at stock market, right?

[00:05:38] The people that are professionals at it,

[00:05:39] they lose sometimes.

[00:05:41] They don't always win,

[00:05:42] but they have an edge because they're sharper

[00:05:45] and that's what poker players, the pros do.

[00:05:47] They're just a little bit more,

[00:05:50] they have a better understanding of spots.

[00:05:52] Well, can you maybe help me understand

[00:05:55] or help us understand,

[00:05:57] what is that difference between a good player and a pro?

[00:06:02] What is it that a pro does

[00:06:04] that separates them from the rest?

[00:06:06] Okay, so one of the things you need

[00:06:08] to sort of have in your repertoire,

[00:06:09] if you're a pro, is some discipline.

[00:06:11] Like I remember growing up,

[00:06:12] a lot of guys were talented.

[00:06:14] They had some skill sets,

[00:06:15] but they didn't have the emotional stability

[00:06:17] to deal with the swings.

[00:06:18] So when they were winning and doing well,

[00:06:20] they were fine.

[00:06:21] When things went badly,

[00:06:23] they didn't play their same game.

[00:06:24] We call that tilt.

[00:06:25] That's the term for it, like a pinball machine.

[00:06:27] You're on tilt and now you start playing

[00:06:29] like an idiot yourself

[00:06:30] and then you just start dumping the money.

[00:06:31] So discipline is really, really important.

[00:06:34] In terms of like elevating to that next place

[00:06:37] where like, okay, I need to make a living here doing this

[00:06:41] so I can't be all reckless.

[00:06:43] Sure.

[00:06:43] So is there a moment that you can draw back to

[00:06:47] where you were tilted

[00:06:49] and things just went completely south for you?

[00:06:51] Many times.

[00:06:52] Yeah, tilt is something you're gonna experience

[00:06:54] when you play poker, right?

[00:06:55] Like you can say,

[00:06:57] you can think all you want about your like,

[00:06:58] oh, I'm home by y'all,

[00:07:00] I'm boom, boom.

[00:07:02] But no, you know, you get pissed off, you get upset.

[00:07:03] Sometimes you think like,

[00:07:05] you know, the cards are spitting in your face.

[00:07:06] You're like, how could I possibly lose this?

[00:07:08] Like every poker player who's played,

[00:07:10] like a lot of them think they're the unluckiest person

[00:07:12] in the world.

[00:07:13] Like you're not, okay?

[00:07:14] But everyone goes through it, even me.

[00:07:16] Like honestly, year ago and the year before,

[00:07:18] I had a horrible year

[00:07:19] and I've been doing this 30 years.

[00:07:20] And I just was like,

[00:07:21] no matter what I did,

[00:07:22] the cards wouldn't cooperate.

[00:07:23] That's probably the frustrating thing about poker for people

[00:07:26] is you can do everything right,

[00:07:27] make all the right decisions

[00:07:29] and still lose money.

[00:07:31] And I think that's the biggest misnomer that people have

[00:07:33] is that you can,

[00:07:36] obviously whenever you watch poker,

[00:07:38] whenever you watch the social posts

[00:07:39] of a poker tournament or whatnot,

[00:07:42] they glorify the moments where someone bluffs

[00:07:45] with nothing in their hand type of thing.

[00:07:47] But in reality, it's a lot harder

[00:07:49] than what you're seeing in those very small moments

[00:07:52] over the course of several hours

[00:07:53] of playing in a tournament.

[00:07:55] Which is also a thing in and of itself.

[00:07:56] Like you go through a lot of stress

[00:07:59] sitting there for eight, nine hours

[00:08:01] playing through a tournament

[00:08:02] over multiple days type of thing.

[00:08:03] Like you're playing in one right now

[00:08:05] at the World Series of Poker in Toronto.

[00:08:07] And just what are you seeing

[00:08:09] from sort of people sitting in there

[00:08:12] playing in a group setting?

[00:08:14] Is there a level of intimidation for players?

[00:08:16] Do you see a lot of new players playing?

[00:08:18] Is it just poker pros?

[00:08:20] Well here in Toronto,

[00:08:22] so we had for the first time ever

[00:08:23] at the Great Canadian in Toronto here,

[00:08:26] the new casino.

[00:08:28] It's like the first time

[00:08:28] there's ever been anything like this.

[00:08:30] So what you're gonna see,

[00:08:31] you're gonna see a lot of new faces, right?

[00:08:33] A lot of people that are somewhat amateurish, right?

[00:08:36] So when I sit down at the table,

[00:08:37] they're typically pretty shocked to see me there.

[00:08:40] That's Daniel McGrath.

[00:08:41] Yeah, there's intimidation because I'm me, right?

[00:08:44] And they know who I am.

[00:08:45] So I have a little bit of an advantage

[00:08:48] in that regard there.

[00:08:48] But there's some pros, there's some local pros.

[00:08:51] I see some guys that make trips out to Las Vegas

[00:08:53] and stuff like that.

[00:08:54] And I'd like to see more come.

[00:08:55] Part of what we're doing,

[00:08:57] at GG Poker is we have this thing called

[00:08:59] the Road to Vegas,

[00:09:00] which is you can play online.

[00:09:02] You can win your seat,

[00:09:03] you can win your way to Las Vegas

[00:09:05] to play in the main event.

[00:09:06] So that's part of what I was here doing,

[00:09:07] promoting more Canadians to come out

[00:09:10] and play the World Series of Poker this year.

[00:09:12] Is there a limitation or is there a smaller number

[00:09:17] of Canadians playing compared

[00:09:19] to other nationalities right now?

[00:09:21] Actually Canada represents a big percentage.

[00:09:23] Like last year on GG Poker, right?

[00:09:25] Which, well on the late site.

[00:09:27] They dealt like 3.8 million hands.

[00:09:29] Three billion in prize money was given away

[00:09:31] or something crazy like that.

[00:09:33] And a big percentage of that

[00:09:34] actually is Canadian players.

[00:09:35] Ontario's a little different

[00:09:38] because of the regulation where in Ontario,

[00:09:40] people can only play against each other.

[00:09:43] Where there's an international site

[00:09:44] where people play with people from France and Italy

[00:09:46] or wherever else.

[00:09:48] So hopefully, I don't have anything to do with the laws,

[00:09:51] but hopefully they open it up.

[00:09:52] Because it's better for the players.

[00:09:53] You want to have those huge prize pools.

[00:09:57] And players in Ontario, unfortunately,

[00:09:59] they can only play on the Ontario site.

[00:10:01] Interesting that that would be a rule.

[00:10:04] A few countries have tried it and it's really silly.

[00:10:06] I don't know why they do it.

[00:10:07] They're short-sighted.

[00:10:08] I can't think of why it would be beneficial.

[00:10:10] Like I can't think of the pro argument for it.

[00:10:12] I think they probably feel like they have more control

[00:10:14] over what's happening when it's all based

[00:10:16] solely in their region, right?

[00:10:18] I see.

[00:10:19] I don't know.

[00:10:20] I mean again, I'm not a lawyer or anything like that.

[00:10:22] But it is better for players

[00:10:24] when you can have the liquidity of like the entire world.

[00:10:27] Sure, more chances at winning.

[00:10:29] Just bigger, yeah, bigger prize pools.

[00:10:32] How do you overcome the losses?

[00:10:35] I'm sure at this point in your career,

[00:10:37] and perhaps I'm wrong here,

[00:10:39] but you've sort of established a way

[00:10:40] where you deal with the loss and you go,

[00:10:42] like last year you said you had a really bad year

[00:10:44] and you go, okay, it happened.

[00:10:47] I'm capable of moving forward.

[00:10:48] But early on in your career,

[00:10:50] I'm sure you took those losses quite hard, right?

[00:10:53] How do you overcome those?

[00:10:55] Because it's one thing when you're trying to do something

[00:10:58] and it doesn't work.

[00:10:59] It's another when you're trying to do something

[00:11:00] and it doesn't work,

[00:11:01] and you've lost money in the process.

[00:11:02] Like that's a very daunting feeling for a lot of people.

[00:11:05] Well, I think one of the most important aspects

[00:11:07] of what's kept me successful all these years

[00:11:08] is resilience.

[00:11:10] Is the ability to like have those down moments

[00:11:12] and then allow myself to vent,

[00:11:15] to sulk if you will for a moment.

[00:11:17] But then I wake up that next morning hungry

[00:11:19] and ready to go do it all over again, right?

[00:11:20] So I think one of the biggest mistakes people make

[00:11:24] in poker and life in general is like hold things in

[00:11:26] and don't actually experience the experience, right?

[00:11:28] I allow myself to vent.

[00:11:30] I want it out.

[00:11:31] I wanna just like, this is brutal.

[00:11:32] I can't believe this.

[00:11:34] I'll be a victim to circumstance if you will.

[00:11:36] But once I'm past that, now I allow myself to go,

[00:11:40] okay, well, you know what?

[00:11:41] What are we gonna do about it?

[00:11:42] We're gonna show up,

[00:11:43] we're gonna wake up the next morning

[00:11:44] and we're gonna go right back in there.

[00:11:46] And again, for a lot of people,

[00:11:48] it's not for everybody.

[00:11:49] A lot of people cannot handle the stress and the pain

[00:11:51] of losing all the time.

[00:11:54] Like you can go through stretches where let's say

[00:11:54] I have a pair of aces and you have a pair of sixes, right?

[00:11:57] The math says I'm gonna win about 80% of the time, right?

[00:12:01] One out of five times, even though I did everything right,

[00:12:03] you're gonna beat me.

[00:12:04] And sometimes that one out of five times

[00:12:06] happens three, four times in a row

[00:12:07] and you start going, this is impossible, right?

[00:12:10] And that's the hard part, I think for people playing.

[00:12:12] But it's also the fun part.

[00:12:13] You know, like it's also where the enjoyment

[00:12:16] comes from in a way.

[00:12:17] It's like the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat.

[00:12:20] You don't have one without the other.

[00:12:22] It's interesting you talk about the math part.

[00:12:25] That's something that's always been interesting to me.

[00:12:26] I play poker semi-regularly.

[00:12:29] I don't quite have the math part down.

[00:12:31] How does that process even work?

[00:12:33] Like how do you even acquire the skillset

[00:12:34] when you're playing with percentages and whatnot?

[00:12:37] Because there's moments where I'm watching pro players

[00:12:39] play and something happens and they're sitting,

[00:12:42] they're thinking, and then you can tell

[00:12:43] that they're basically doing some sort of calculation

[00:12:45] in their head.

[00:12:46] And a lot of people have asked me,

[00:12:48] because I posted that you were coming onto the podcast,

[00:12:52] how does the math element work?

[00:12:54] Can you maybe share a little bit there?

[00:12:55] Sure, yeah.

[00:12:56] So like I'm gonna separate this two different ways.

[00:12:59] If you're a casual player that just wants to like

[00:13:01] enjoy yourself and learn a little bit,

[00:13:03] then you don't have to bog down too much with the math.

[00:13:06] Like you need to know the basic math,

[00:13:07] which is what we used way back when.

[00:13:09] Doyle Brunson many years ago,

[00:13:10] before there were computers or anything,

[00:13:12] he would literally deal the cards out

[00:13:13] and keep track with a pen and paper and say,

[00:13:15] okay, ace king against the pair of fours

[00:13:17] and he would win 53% of the time.

[00:13:19] And he would do it that way.

[00:13:20] Well, we don't need to do that anymore.

[00:13:22] We have computers that do that for us.

[00:13:24] But the advancement of AI and software and solvers

[00:13:29] has changed the way people learn today.

[00:13:31] Especially the young generation.

[00:13:33] They like use the computer outputs

[00:13:35] and they look at that and they learn from that.

[00:13:37] And the way that solvers work is it's like

[00:13:39] AI figuring each other out.

[00:13:41] And there's two AI bots that go against each other

[00:13:43] to try to exploit each other until they find

[00:13:46] like this sort of equilibrium.

[00:13:47] So for example, if you and me,

[00:13:49] we played rock paper scissors.

[00:13:51] You know the game.

[00:13:52] Yep.

[00:13:53] Okay, so if you wanna play game theory optimal,

[00:13:56] you'd throw 33% of each.

[00:13:58] If I do that, you can't beat me.

[00:14:00] However, what if I start to notice

[00:14:02] that you just play rock every time?

[00:14:05] Well, what would I do?

[00:14:07] What would be the right play for me to do?

[00:14:08] You play paper.

[00:14:09] How often?

[00:14:10] Every time.

[00:14:11] Really?

[00:14:12] Because if you play it every time,

[00:14:13] what's gonna happen is this.

[00:14:14] You're gonna adjust.

[00:14:15] You're like, wait a minute.

[00:14:16] This guy's playing paper every time.

[00:14:18] So now you're gonna switch up, right?

[00:14:20] So really the best answer is instead of 33%,

[00:14:23] just go to 40, 45.

[00:14:24] So you exploit the person without them knowing, right?

[00:14:28] So that way they just feel like they're unlucky

[00:14:31] in the end, but it's really,

[00:14:32] you're just taking advantage of them.

[00:14:34] Is there a fear, especially playing online,

[00:14:37] in person obviously would be very different,

[00:14:39] but playing online,

[00:14:41] is there a fear that someone could utilize an AI bot

[00:14:46] for in-game tournaments online

[00:14:47] and then could essentially sweep the board?

[00:14:49] So that's an interesting question

[00:14:51] because anytime there's money on the line,

[00:14:53] you're always gonna have people looking for an advantage,

[00:14:55] whether fair or unfair.

[00:14:56] And that's been going on for a hundred years

[00:14:58] when Lungs Poker existed.

[00:15:00] Now software programs have advanced,

[00:15:03] which requires the operators to really step up their game.

[00:15:06] So it's like a cat and mouse game, right?

[00:15:08] Where the cheaters are gonna try to cheat,

[00:15:10] then we gotta catch them.

[00:15:11] And the good news is, like say on GG Poker,

[00:15:13] they have access to all the hands that are played.

[00:15:16] So they can see what's going on.

[00:15:18] And when they find people that are safe,

[00:15:20] for example, it's very easy.

[00:15:22] There's actually, they have methods.

[00:15:23] I can't share the methods where they spot the bots

[00:15:25] and then they ban those accounts.

[00:15:26] I think a couple of years ago,

[00:15:28] I think there was 60 accounts that were banned, right?

[00:15:30] And the money was confiscated.

[00:15:32] All the players were reimbursed for whatever it was.

[00:15:35] But that's always gonna happen, right?

[00:15:36] Whether it's live poker or online poker,

[00:15:38] but you have to have like some faith and trust in like,

[00:15:40] you know, that the operators themselves,

[00:15:42] they don't want any of this to happen.

[00:15:43] It's bad for business, right?

[00:15:45] So they spend a lot of resources on not only like,

[00:15:48] you know, catching that,

[00:15:49] but also making sure that the software is fun and engaging.

[00:15:51] Like that's probably one of the biggest things

[00:15:53] I noticed with GG Poker.

[00:15:54] It's just how like the software is updated.

[00:15:56] It's fun.

[00:15:57] You know, you got like, if you lose a hand,

[00:15:59] you can use my face with an emoji and go.

[00:16:02] There's a whole bunch of like a whole host of things.

[00:16:04] They got a Snapcam built in and just,

[00:16:06] it's just very interactive and a lot of fun.

[00:16:08] So, but yeah, absolutely.

[00:16:09] That's always something that, you know,

[00:16:11] people will try to do stuff like that.

[00:16:13] So you have to like, you know, be one step ahead.

[00:16:16] Why poker?

[00:16:17] Why'd you get into poker?

[00:16:19] Well, I was too short to play in the NBA.

[00:16:21] I was too tall to be a jockey, right?

[00:16:25] So I fell into poker.

[00:16:26] No, I always had a competitive spirit

[00:16:28] and I used to play pool.

[00:16:29] I played snooker at the Palace Club Billiards.

[00:16:31] Maybe some people listening went there 20 years ago.

[00:16:35] And you know, through that,

[00:16:37] I met some people who play poker

[00:16:38] and I started to notice.

[00:16:39] I'm like, what the heck?

[00:16:40] I thought it was just a game of luck,

[00:16:41] but the same guys keep winning.

[00:16:43] It's all luck.

[00:16:44] What are they just lucky, the luckiest guys in Toronto?

[00:16:46] And then I started to realize,

[00:16:47] no, there's stuff they're doing.

[00:16:48] You know, they're understanding the strategy

[00:16:50] behind the game and stuff.

[00:16:51] So I was enthralled and I didn't set out,

[00:16:54] you know, as a teenager,

[00:16:54] you're like, I'm gonna do this.

[00:16:56] I just started playing and playing

[00:16:57] and I really enjoyed it.

[00:16:58] And I started to dedicate time to it.

[00:17:00] Then I started to take it more seriously

[00:17:02] and make some money.

[00:17:03] And not till I was about 22, 23,

[00:17:04] I woke up one day and I go, you know what?

[00:17:07] I guess this is what I do for a living.

[00:17:09] It just sort of happened.

[00:17:10] Interesting.

[00:17:11] And if you weren't playing poker,

[00:17:13] what would you be doing?

[00:17:14] Well, when I was young,

[00:17:15] I was always into acting and writing

[00:17:18] and stuff like that.

[00:17:19] So something Hollywoodish, you know?

[00:17:21] I could see myself maybe doing your job

[00:17:23] or hosting a podcast or something.

[00:17:25] Welcome, here.

[00:17:26] Yeah, right.

[00:17:27] Yeah, no, so yeah, stuff like that.

[00:17:29] It was always stuff that I was very interested in.

[00:17:30] But it was always gonna be something

[00:17:32] probably unconventional.

[00:17:33] I was never really gonna be, I don't think,

[00:17:35] like a desk guy, you know, working in an office.

[00:17:38] I just don't think that was, I was cut out for that.

[00:17:39] Yeah, do you have support

[00:17:41] when you decide you want to play poker?

[00:17:43] Like from your family, from parents?

[00:17:44] So my dad, you know, he grew up in Romania,

[00:17:47] both my parents did.

[00:17:48] And my dad, you know, he was on the black market.

[00:17:50] You know, by the time he was 11,

[00:17:51] he was trading and doing all kinds of stuff.

[00:17:53] So he understood what a hustler meant, right?

[00:17:55] So he was cool.

[00:17:56] My mom, she's different.

[00:17:58] She's like, Danielle, forget about the poker.

[00:18:00] You go to school, okay?

[00:18:02] You know, she didn't get it.

[00:18:03] Then, you know, she started seeing I was winning.

[00:18:06] I bought her a house, got her a new car.

[00:18:08] She's like, oh no, no, poker is nice.

[00:18:09] I like poker. Keep playing, yeah.

[00:18:11] Poker's okay, yeah.

[00:18:12] Would you, do you have kids?

[00:18:15] Not that I'm aware of.

[00:18:16] Very possible, but yeah.

[00:18:17] Yeah, you don't wanna get any Father's Day cards

[00:18:20] in the mail? No.

[00:18:21] I was gonna say if you had kids,

[00:18:22] or if, do you want kids at some point?

[00:18:24] Yeah.

[00:18:25] Would you want your kids to play poker?

[00:18:27] So if I had, you know, kids,

[00:18:29] I would actually teach them how to play poker

[00:18:31] because I think you learn a lot of skills in poker

[00:18:33] that are translatable to life.

[00:18:34] Like what? Right?

[00:18:36] Well, just, you know, assessing risk.

[00:18:38] Like understanding math, probability,

[00:18:40] in a much more fun way, right?

[00:18:42] In addition to that, people skills, understanding,

[00:18:44] you know, like spotting when people are bluffing

[00:18:46] and when they're lying to you.

[00:18:46] There's a lot of skills that you can,

[00:18:48] you know, you can use

[00:18:49] and just sharpening your brain.

[00:18:51] Like, you know, chess is a game

[00:18:52] where a lot of kids learn how to play that.

[00:18:54] And that can be detrimental in some ways too

[00:18:56] because if you become obsessed with chess,

[00:18:58] you start, you actually become anti-social, right?

[00:19:00] You're just focused on this,

[00:19:01] but with poker it's different.

[00:19:03] You have to.

[00:19:04] So now if they wanted to, you know, pursue a passion

[00:19:07] and they thought they wanted to be professional poker player,

[00:19:09] I would a hundred percent support them.

[00:19:10] You know?

[00:19:11] If they didn't, they weren't interested.

[00:19:12] I support them in pretty much anything they want to do.

[00:19:14] How do you tell when someone's bluffing?

[00:19:16] I think anybody would want to know that skill.

[00:19:19] Well, again, there's several things, right?

[00:19:21] Everybody's different,

[00:19:22] but there are some patterns that hold true

[00:19:24] with like a lot of different people that you look for.

[00:19:27] But generally the way that do it is this,

[00:19:29] is be observational, like pay attention, right?

[00:19:31] So if I sat and played with you,

[00:19:32] the first 20, 30 minutes,

[00:19:34] I'm gonna watch everything you do,

[00:19:35] and I'm gonna see the cards you turn over, right?

[00:19:36] So if you bluffed one,

[00:19:37] I'm gonna remember what you look like,

[00:19:39] remember what you did.

[00:19:40] And I'm gonna use that against you later most likely,

[00:19:42] unless you're trying to act in reverse,

[00:19:44] but I can usually spot those guys too.

[00:19:46] There's very few people are actors

[00:19:47] at the Tobey Maguire level.

[00:19:49] You know what I mean?

[00:19:49] Because he got me once with a good one.

[00:19:51] Oh really?

[00:19:52] Oh yeah.

[00:19:53] What's the story there?

[00:19:53] So Tobey Maguire,

[00:19:54] I was playing with him in California once.

[00:19:56] We were just playing in a cash game

[00:19:57] and there was a spot where he bet like actual cash.

[00:20:01] He bet all his money

[00:20:02] and I started counting out my money,

[00:20:04] like I was gonna call him.

[00:20:05] And then he grabbed his cards to turn them over, right?

[00:20:08] So what that tells you is he's excited to show his hand

[00:20:12] because he's got a very good hand, right?

[00:20:14] That's what you would think.

[00:20:14] So he was about,

[00:20:15] and I was like, no, I didn't call yet.

[00:20:16] I didn't call yet.

[00:20:17] He's like, oh, this.

[00:20:18] So now I'm like, okay,

[00:20:19] well I know I can't beat that so I fold.

[00:20:21] And he shows me a complete bluff.

[00:20:23] But he's an actor.

[00:20:24] Smart.

[00:20:24] He can do that.

[00:20:25] Yeah.

[00:20:26] Okay.

[00:20:27] So that's a lot of players you're trying to observe though.

[00:20:29] If you're playing one on one,

[00:20:30] maybe one on two, three, et cetera.

[00:20:32] Like that's one thing.

[00:20:33] But when you're playing in a tournament,

[00:20:35] there's what is it?

[00:20:36] Like eight,

[00:20:37] what's the maximum number you can have at a table?

[00:20:38] Eight?

[00:20:39] Nine, 10 sometimes.

[00:20:40] Okay.

[00:20:40] So you've got that many people

[00:20:41] and then every so often you're rotating tables.

[00:20:43] That's a lot of faces, a lot of mannerisms,

[00:20:45] a lot of things you have to observe and remember.

[00:20:48] Yeah.

[00:20:49] Here's the thing though, right?

[00:20:50] So generally, especially in the high stakes ones,

[00:20:51] when I sit at a table,

[00:20:52] I know pretty much everyone already.

[00:20:54] Right.

[00:20:55] Okay.

[00:20:56] When I play in the one like here in Toronto,

[00:20:56] it's all new faces, okay?

[00:20:57] But here's the thing.

[00:20:59] In each given hand,

[00:21:01] maybe there's two people playing or three.

[00:21:02] So I'm only watching those two.

[00:21:03] The ones that are not in the hand,

[00:21:04] I'm not paying attention to them.

[00:21:05] So I'm spending time then,

[00:21:06] okay, I have a profile on this one,

[00:21:08] I have a profile on this one,

[00:21:09] I'll move on to the next.

[00:21:10] So you're not having to soak in

[00:21:12] what eight people are doing at the same time.

[00:21:14] It's usually one or two that you zone in on.

[00:21:17] So, and it's just like breathing.

[00:21:19] It becomes a habit.

[00:21:20] Yeah.

[00:21:23] Is there a particular tournament

[00:21:24] or a particular win that really stands out for you

[00:21:27] that was a moment where you look back and go,

[00:21:32] I made it.

[00:21:33] Yeah.

[00:21:34] This was the tournament

[00:21:35] that really solidified me as a player.

[00:21:37] Yeah, definitely.

[00:21:38] There's a clear answer to that one.

[00:21:40] It was in 1998.

[00:21:42] I was a young up and comer,

[00:21:43] and I'd won some small circuit tournaments in the US.

[00:21:46] I was already living out of a suitcase

[00:21:48] and I won one in three straight spots.

[00:21:50] But now I'm in the World Series of Poker

[00:21:51] and that's the pinnacle, right?

[00:21:52] That's where you wanna be.

[00:21:53] That's the world championship.

[00:21:54] And I couldn't afford to play in those things.

[00:21:56] But I finally see, you know what?

[00:21:57] I'm gonna sit down and play in this game

[00:21:58] that I never even played.

[00:21:59] It was called Pot Limit Hold'em.

[00:22:01] And so I made it into the money.

[00:22:03] I made it to the final table.

[00:22:04] I got heads up with an opponent

[00:22:07] who was far more experienced.

[00:22:09] I ended up in a 50-50 situation.

[00:22:11] I won the pot.

[00:22:12] So I became the youngest World Series of Poker champion

[00:22:15] ever and the crowd was cheering.

[00:22:17] And people were, it was just a moment for me

[00:22:20] where I'm like, all right, well, now I know

[00:22:23] I can play with the big dogs.

[00:22:24] And I remember the first time in that tournament, actually,

[00:22:27] I was sitting with Johnny Chan and Eric Seidel,

[00:22:30] both who were in the movie rounders way back when.

[00:22:33] And I'm like, I remember I bluffed Johnny Chan in hand.

[00:22:35] I was like, oh, okay.

[00:22:37] It started to make me feel like, okay,

[00:22:39] I can hang with these guys.

[00:22:41] Is there ever, was there a tournament

[00:22:43] that stands out where doubt creeped into your mind

[00:22:46] and completely derailed your tournament?

[00:22:49] There's a lot of those, I'm sure.

[00:22:50] But there's one I say on the opposite end

[00:22:53] of the pain spectrum was probably,

[00:22:56] well, there was two actually in 2015 recently.

[00:22:58] I've already made it at this point,

[00:22:59] but I was deep in the World Series of Poker

[00:23:01] down to 11 players.

[00:23:03] And I lost the hand on the last card

[00:23:06] and there's a video of me.

[00:23:08] I literally fall to the floor and my head hit the floor

[00:23:12] because I was so, it's like such a different environment

[00:23:14] than the World Series of Poker.

[00:23:15] It's just under the lights.

[00:23:17] It's just a huge moment.

[00:23:18] It's not like a regular poker game, right?

[00:23:19] So I was fully emotionally connected to it.

[00:23:22] And I felt, and you've been playing for seven days

[00:23:24] in this tournament.

[00:23:25] Yeah, that's a long time.

[00:23:26] With like 8,000 players and something.

[00:23:27] You're down to 11.

[00:23:28] So that one stung.

[00:23:30] And I also had an 11th place finish in 2001

[00:23:32] in the same main event.

[00:23:33] So that's as far as I've gone in that big one.

[00:23:35] But this year, I hope to do even better.

[00:23:39] So walk me through the actual scheduling of this.

[00:23:41] So the World Series of Poker is in Toronto,

[00:23:44] but the main event, the main championship

[00:23:47] takes place where and when?

[00:23:48] Okay, so what we had here in Toronto

[00:23:50] at the Great Canadian is the World Series of Poker circuit.

[00:23:53] So if you think of a circuit,

[00:23:54] there's the World Series of Poker in the circuit.

[00:23:56] The circuit would be like the NHL

[00:23:58] and then you've got like the AHL, right?

[00:23:59] So it's like the minor league, if you will.

[00:24:02] In Vegas, right at the end of May,

[00:24:05] all of June and for six weeks,

[00:24:07] there'll be whole series of tournaments,

[00:24:09] the World Series of Poker events,

[00:24:11] different games, Seven Card Stud, Omaha,

[00:24:13] Hold'em, all the, and the like.

[00:24:15] Then right in the early part of July,

[00:24:17] you'll have the World Series of Poker main event.

[00:24:21] That's the big one.

[00:24:21] That's the $10,000 buy-in with very extended schedule

[00:24:24] with you're gonna get like 10,000 players.

[00:24:26] We got last year, 100 million prize pool.

[00:24:29] And it takes to finish that tournament,

[00:24:31] it takes about nine to 10 days.

[00:24:33] So you play your day,

[00:24:34] and the way that it breaks down is day one,

[00:24:37] there'll be different heats of day one.

[00:24:38] So you got that,

[00:24:39] and then there'll be two heats of day two

[00:24:40] and then three on to like day nine,

[00:24:43] you play the finish and they're long days.

[00:24:45] How many hours a day are you playing?

[00:24:46] Depending on like the ones that play really,

[00:24:48] really deep, sometimes they can,

[00:24:50] typically it's like noon to about one.

[00:24:52] So you're looking at 13 hours.

[00:24:53] Those ones where you have to get down

[00:24:55] to a certain number of players,

[00:24:55] sometimes they're there till six in the morning,

[00:24:57] five in the morning, just on fumes and coffee.

[00:25:00] Yeah.

[00:25:02] I presume you also have to figure out

[00:25:03] your accommodations and everything and food,

[00:25:06] or is that generally like,

[00:25:07] I'm just thinking about this from the lens of a player.

[00:25:09] You come down, you're spending 10 grand just for entry.

[00:25:13] You're still gonna have to figure out

[00:25:15] where you're sleeping for nine days,

[00:25:16] where you're eating for nine days,

[00:25:17] assuming you're there for the full nine days.

[00:25:19] But how does all that process work?

[00:25:22] That just all seems like a lot to think about

[00:25:24] and worry about when all you're really focused on

[00:25:26] is playing.

[00:25:28] Well, for me, I live there, right?

[00:25:29] So for me, I'm home and I have like,

[00:25:31] I can get a room, but generally speaking,

[00:25:33] most people will get a room on the property

[00:25:35] or nearby and go there.

[00:25:36] And then we get breaks every two hours.

[00:25:38] So on those breaks, there's a little cafe

[00:25:41] and then they have a dinner break and stuff like that.

[00:25:43] So people figure it out.

[00:25:44] I'm sure you could figure it out.

[00:25:46] But the good news, so for those that like,

[00:25:48] the online route with that road to Vegas thing

[00:25:50] that you're promoting,

[00:25:52] that's all gonna be taken care of, right?

[00:25:53] So you're like, they handle it for you.

[00:25:55] You just, you win your seat, you get a package,

[00:25:57] you go there and all the ancillary benefits come with it.

[00:26:01] Very cool.

[00:26:04] You mentioned you've been playing 30 years now?

[00:26:07] Mm-hmm.

[00:26:08] That's a long time.

[00:26:09] A little over 30, yeah.

[00:26:09] I'm 49, I started when I was about 17.

[00:26:12] If you had an opportunity to go and talk

[00:26:15] to young Daniel at 17 and share all this wisdom

[00:26:18] and advice, what would you say to him?

[00:26:21] Say you're gonna make it.

[00:26:22] You're gonna make it.

[00:26:24] Just keep doing you,

[00:26:25] because it's all gonna work out.

[00:26:26] I look back in my life

[00:26:28] and I don't believe really in regret.

[00:26:30] I don't have regret because I love where I'm at now.

[00:26:34] So I think of every point in my life

[00:26:37] being an integral part in that.

[00:26:38] So there were moments that I would look at

[00:26:40] and go, okay, I wouldn't do the same thing now.

[00:26:42] I wouldn't have handled it that way now.

[00:26:43] But I'm glad that I did then

[00:26:45] because it taught me a lesson in life.

[00:26:47] So I really, I don't live...

[00:26:49] Because I think the biggest regret people have

[00:26:51] is when they don't learn anything from their mistakes

[00:26:53] and they continue to repeat those patterns.

[00:26:55] I look at mistakes as opportunities.

[00:26:57] I really do.

[00:26:58] I kind of get excited when I play a poker hand wrong

[00:27:01] and I go home and I dissect them.

[00:27:03] Oh yeah, you know what I can do

[00:27:05] in those spots in the future?

[00:27:06] And that's how you learn.

[00:27:09] You face yourself with a situation,

[00:27:11] you don't know how to approach.

[00:27:12] You make a mistake and now for the next time,

[00:27:14] you're gonna be in a similar situation,

[00:27:16] you're equipped with that knowledge

[00:27:18] and that's how you get better.

[00:27:18] You call it plugging leaks if you will.

[00:27:20] And that's the discipline part.

[00:27:22] That's the part where even after you've played

[00:27:24] and you're tired

[00:27:25] and you've gone through the emotional roller coaster,

[00:27:27] you're going home and dissecting exactly what went wrong.

[00:27:30] It's the discipline.

[00:27:31] It's also I think more importantly,

[00:27:32] it's the self-awareness, right?

[00:27:34] I think too often people just go,

[00:27:35] oh man, I'm so unlucky.

[00:27:37] Or are you?

[00:27:39] Let's take a deeper look.

[00:27:40] Okay, you lost that hand, that was unlucky.

[00:27:42] What about before that?

[00:27:43] Were there any other things?

[00:27:44] So what I do is like,

[00:27:45] it's called the coaching triangle,

[00:27:46] stuff, guru stuff.

[00:27:48] But I look at after an event,

[00:27:50] I'm like what worked?

[00:27:51] What didn't work?

[00:27:52] Okay, what worked?

[00:27:53] I was focused, I did this, I played well here.

[00:27:55] What didn't work?

[00:27:56] Hmm, you know,

[00:27:57] a few things here that I can work on for the next time.

[00:27:59] And if you're always constantly improving,

[00:28:01] you stay, you're gonna just continue

[00:28:04] to stay above water, right?

[00:28:08] Because what happens with a lot of these guys

[00:28:10] from my era when poker was booming 2008,

[00:28:13] they got complacent.

[00:28:14] They're like I'm good, that's it, I'm this.

[00:28:17] Everybody else is working.

[00:28:18] Everybody else is getting better.

[00:28:19] If you're not, well,

[00:28:20] eventually they're gonna surpass you.

[00:28:22] And how do you balance the,

[00:28:25] because poker obviously will take up a large chunk

[00:28:28] of your time and your brain energy

[00:28:30] because you're thinking about it, right?

[00:28:32] And when you're preparing for a tournament

[00:28:33] and actually how long in advance

[00:28:36] do you prepare for a tournament?

[00:28:37] Can you even really prepare?

[00:28:39] Yeah, so I get that question a lot,

[00:28:40] like preparation.

[00:28:41] And really for me it's just about,

[00:28:43] you know, just a general healthy lifestyle, right?

[00:28:47] There's no like specific thing.

[00:28:48] Like I'm not doing a specific meditation or whatever.

[00:28:51] I mean, I try to get eight hours of sleep,

[00:28:53] which I do pretty well.

[00:28:54] You know, I plan for food usually.

[00:28:56] It's like I'm a vegan also.

[00:28:57] So depending where I'm going,

[00:28:59] you know, I wanna make sure

[00:29:00] that they're, you know,

[00:29:00] that I'm getting what I need.

[00:29:02] So I do try to plan ahead in that regard,

[00:29:05] but sleep really,

[00:29:06] because I've found too,

[00:29:07] especially as you get older,

[00:29:09] that my play declines significantly when I'm tired.

[00:29:14] You know, it's just,

[00:29:14] it's very difficult to,

[00:29:16] you know, be at your best when you're,

[00:29:18] you know, you're just fatigued.

[00:29:20] Yeah.

[00:29:21] So how do you balance

[00:29:24] the poker side of Daniel Negron who's life

[00:29:28] and then everything else that you have going on in life?

[00:29:30] Being a husband,

[00:29:32] other passions that you might have,

[00:29:34] other projects you might be working on.

[00:29:35] How do you balance all of that?

[00:29:37] Well, I sort of go all in

[00:29:39] and I go hard when I'm doing something.

[00:29:40] So when I'm playing poker,

[00:29:42] that's it, I'm boom.

[00:29:43] But the way that I play poker

[00:29:45] is I might play a series for nine, 10 days,

[00:29:47] and then I won't play for a month at all.

[00:29:50] And then, you know,

[00:29:51] then I have time for like my wife,

[00:29:53] you know, for golf,

[00:29:54] for my fantasy hockey league.

[00:29:56] It's like sort of,

[00:29:56] I either rest really hard

[00:29:58] or I work really hard, you know?

[00:30:00] Like I take those extended breaks when I need them.

[00:30:02] And then basically the way that I do it now

[00:30:05] is like I'm on a break

[00:30:07] and then all of a sudden when I start to feel the itch,

[00:30:09] like I can't wait to get back to the table,

[00:30:10] that's when I know, you know?

[00:30:12] But I have the luxury now of being able to do that,

[00:30:14] to take breaks and stuff.

[00:30:15] When you're young, you just play.

[00:30:17] You're just trying to-

[00:30:18] Just reps, getting as-

[00:30:19] Yeah, exactly.

[00:30:20] You just gotta get in as many reps as possible.

[00:30:22] Is there, you talked a little bit earlier about mistakes.

[00:30:25] Is there a particular mistake

[00:30:26] that stands out to you

[00:30:28] as a big defining moment for you?

[00:30:32] Something that happened where you're like,

[00:30:33] okay, that was a big one,

[00:30:36] but this is gonna be one of those mistakes

[00:30:37] that I have to learn from.

[00:30:39] Yeah, that was the one in 2001

[00:30:41] where I came 11th in the World Series Booker

[00:30:43] I was a chip leader with 12th.

[00:30:45] I was the leader.

[00:30:46] And then I was a little reckless.

[00:30:49] I was young, you know?

[00:30:50] And I played an ace king

[00:30:51] against the guy who had a pair of sixes.

[00:30:53] We got it all in.

[00:30:54] I lost the hand and it crippled me.

[00:30:56] And it just taught me that,

[00:30:59] even with all the talent skill that I had,

[00:31:01] you need to have some patience

[00:31:03] and wait for the right moments

[00:31:04] and just add a little texture to your game.

[00:31:06] Like I sort of described earlier,

[00:31:07] I was kind of a bull in a china shop, right?

[00:31:09] Very aggressive, in your face, nonstop.

[00:31:11] Well, when people know how to play against that,

[00:31:15] then it becomes very easy for them to beat you.

[00:31:17] So I needed to add a little more complexity to the game

[00:31:20] where I'm like, okay, he's a bull,

[00:31:21] but he's passive.

[00:31:22] And kind of bob and weave a little bit more.

[00:31:25] And that was a big mistake

[00:31:26] because had I not played the hand,

[00:31:28] there's a very good chance

[00:31:29] that I could have made the final table

[00:31:31] and maybe won the main event

[00:31:32] or the World Series Poker.

[00:31:35] Do you look back on that and regret it?

[00:31:38] Yeah, not regret.

[00:31:39] I look back on it and I'm like, okay,

[00:31:41] actually I'm sort of thankful because it worked out.

[00:31:46] Who knows how things would have worked out differently.

[00:31:49] I look at it, so that's the way I look at

[00:31:50] where am I at now, right?

[00:31:52] I love my life exactly as it is.

[00:31:54] So would I change anything about the past

[00:31:57] and risk that it might change the future?

[00:31:59] Like who knows what would happen then?

[00:32:01] Maybe in 2001 I would have won,

[00:32:04] won the million or whatever and then just screwed off.

[00:32:07] Who knows?

[00:32:08] Like I don't know what would have happened next.

[00:32:09] So no, I don't have regret.

[00:32:11] Again, if I were in that same situation today

[00:32:13] and could go back, I would fold the hand,

[00:32:16] but I don't regret it.

[00:32:17] Can you walk me through the way that played out?

[00:32:20] So you said you had ace-king,

[00:32:21] the opponent had two sixes.

[00:32:24] At what point would you have folded?

[00:32:26] So what I learned now is people then,

[00:32:31] obviously people are better today than they were back then.

[00:32:33] But it was a hand where the guy who ended up winning,

[00:32:35] a friend of mine, Carlos Mortenson,

[00:32:37] he raised this German player who was an amateur,

[00:32:40] re-raised really big, right?

[00:32:42] And I had ace-king and I had him getting a lot of cards.

[00:32:45] But when this guy does that,

[00:32:46] I don't have to get it all,

[00:32:47] I don't have to play this pot.

[00:32:48] I can just fold the ace-king, right?

[00:32:50] But instead I'm like,

[00:32:51] I know he's probably got like two sixes

[00:32:53] or something like that.

[00:32:54] Maybe he'll fold if I re-raise.

[00:32:55] So I did, he went all in.

[00:32:57] And now it really is 50-50.

[00:32:59] I'm 50-50 when the flop was a jack and a 10.

[00:33:02] So I needed an ace, a king or a queen

[00:33:04] in one of the last couple cards.

[00:33:05] And it didn't come.

[00:33:07] But yeah, it's just one of those spots

[00:33:10] where it really sort of formed my game for the future,

[00:33:13] which we call, I coined it small ball, right?

[00:33:16] Which the idea is I play a lot of little small pots,

[00:33:19] but if I'm gonna play a really big pot,

[00:33:21] I wanna make sure that I have really high odds

[00:33:24] of winning the hand.

[00:33:27] So in that moment you folded,

[00:33:29] or sorry, you played the hand and you lost.

[00:33:33] Was that, so after that,

[00:33:34] you basically, you were crippled, you lost.

[00:33:36] Yeah, basically I was short on chips after that.

[00:33:38] And then went out with a hand

[00:33:40] I shouldn't have either even now.

[00:33:41] So it was a little bit of impatience.

[00:33:44] And that's what I learned that like,

[00:33:46] okay, well, I have an advantage skill-wise, right?

[00:33:49] I don't have to push the small edges.

[00:33:51] So for example, like let's say you had a million dollars,

[00:33:55] right?

[00:33:56] And I said, that's all your money.

[00:33:57] I said, you wanna flip a coin, right?

[00:34:00] You wanna flip a coin, I'll put up 1.3 million.

[00:34:03] You put up a million, would you do it?

[00:34:05] It's a good investment.

[00:34:07] So yeah, but that's hard.

[00:34:07] Right, it's a positive EV investment.

[00:34:09] But the problem is this, if you lose, you're broke.

[00:34:13] You have no money.

[00:34:14] Now, if I said the same thing again with 10 bucks,

[00:34:16] right, and I said, okay, well, I'll put up 13,

[00:34:18] you put up 10, let's flip a coin.

[00:34:19] Would you do that one?

[00:34:20] Sure.

[00:34:21] Because that's not gonna change your life, right?

[00:34:23] And it's just a value.

[00:34:25] But when you're talking about your net worth,

[00:34:28] bankroll management, sometimes you have to pass

[00:34:31] on things that have positive equity.

[00:34:32] That's true with investing too.

[00:34:34] You might look at a stock or whatever it is

[00:34:36] and you say, okay, well, this is worth a lot.

[00:34:38] But like, do you wanna put all of your worth

[00:34:41] into that one thing?

[00:34:42] You have to diversify.

[00:34:43] You have to be careful with stuff like that.

[00:34:44] And that's the risk-reward ratio

[00:34:46] that you're calculating on the fly essentially.

[00:34:49] If I was there watching you lose that hand

[00:34:54] and then subsequently lose and essentially get eliminated,

[00:34:59] what would I have seen?

[00:35:00] A little brat.

[00:35:02] You would've seen a little brat.

[00:35:03] Like I got 70,000 or something like that.

[00:35:06] I took it and I literally just to be a jerk,

[00:35:08] I threw it in the garbage.

[00:35:10] I got the 70,000s.

[00:35:11] I don't even want this

[00:35:12] because I wanted the million.

[00:35:14] So I grabbed it out of the garbage.

[00:35:16] I didn't leave it there

[00:35:17] because I'm like, what are you doing?

[00:35:18] But it was just, you know, I was probably,

[00:35:22] I wasn't ready for the moment, frankly.

[00:35:24] I was too young to be prepared

[00:35:26] for what winning would've been like for me.

[00:35:30] It just wasn't my time.

[00:35:33] But again, and when I'm young,

[00:35:34] I was, and most of us are, right?

[00:35:36] Like I was very confident,

[00:35:39] bordering on arrogant and cocky and really just that.

[00:35:42] And so yeah, you probably would have seen

[00:35:44] like an entitled little brat.

[00:35:48] Well, it's interesting because you mentioned

[00:35:52] when you went to Vegas,

[00:35:54] you were pretty much living out of the suitcase.

[00:35:57] And then to go from living out of a suitcase

[00:35:59] to making bank, making good money, winning tournaments.

[00:36:05] There's a level of ego and pride

[00:36:07] that immediately comes out of something like that

[00:36:09] where you think you're the shit

[00:36:10] and you're walking around like the bull in a china shop.

[00:36:14] How did you sort of balance that ego

[00:36:19] from completely taking over or did it?

[00:36:21] Like was there at a point in time

[00:36:22] where your ego was who you were?

[00:36:26] No, that's actually really,

[00:36:27] you know, it's a really interesting point you bring up

[00:36:28] because you're right.

[00:36:30] When you get good at one thing,

[00:36:31] you think you're good at everything,

[00:36:32] that's called Dunning-Kruger.

[00:36:34] Are you familiar with that?

[00:36:34] No, actually.

[00:36:35] The Dunning-Kruger effect is you become

[00:36:37] really good at one thing

[00:36:37] and then you just assume you're an expert on everything.

[00:36:39] If you ask, like poker players are the worst at that.

[00:36:42] Every poker player is an expert on everything.

[00:36:44] You know, oh, nutrition, they know everything.

[00:36:46] COVID, they know everything.

[00:36:48] War, they understand better than everybody else.

[00:36:51] So for me personally, I did a course about,

[00:36:55] what was it?

[00:36:56] 10 years ago, it's an emotional intelligence course.

[00:36:59] And within one of those things,

[00:37:00] you do like some exercise and different things

[00:37:03] and you're more introspective

[00:37:04] and you have an opportunity to sort of like

[00:37:06] look at how you show up in the world.

[00:37:07] And once you're cognizant of that,

[00:37:09] once you realize it,

[00:37:10] it just really sort of shifts for you.

[00:37:12] So yeah, I realized through that process,

[00:37:14] like how I was showing up,

[00:37:17] that overconfidence can come off wrong to people

[00:37:20] or actually comes off accurate

[00:37:21] in terms of how you feel about yourself.

[00:37:23] But it's not necessarily warranted, right?

[00:37:25] Okay, you're great at poker, good for you.

[00:37:27] That doesn't mean you know anything.

[00:37:28] You're a pro and everything else.

[00:37:29] You're not an authority on all things

[00:37:30] just because you're good at one thing.

[00:37:31] But a lot of people suffer from Dunning-Kruger.

[00:37:35] Well, what is the role of emotional intelligence

[00:37:38] in poker?

[00:37:39] I think emotional intelligence

[00:37:40] is probably the most valuable skill set.

[00:37:42] And it's essentially like, what does it mean?

[00:37:45] It's a buzzword a lot of people use.

[00:37:46] And it's basically how you deal with high stress,

[00:37:48] high pressure situations.

[00:37:50] And generally speaking, if you look at say,

[00:37:52] two people that were up for a job

[00:37:54] and they both got to meet the boss

[00:37:55] and their IQ is the same, let's say.

[00:37:59] The person with the higher EQ is gonna get the job

[00:38:01] because they know how to relate to people.

[00:38:03] They understand and it's really self-awareness too.

[00:38:06] So the EQ is for me being able to sort of

[00:38:09] honestly assess where I'm at.

[00:38:11] And one of the reasons that I've been able to stay

[00:38:13] within the game for 30 years is I've always been able

[00:38:15] to go, you know what?

[00:38:16] Okay, I think those guys are better than me right now.

[00:38:19] I need to learn from them and humble myself.

[00:38:21] So it's a humility and a self-awareness of,

[00:38:24] you're not the shit forever unless you update,

[00:38:27] you continue to work on yourself.

[00:38:29] Is that something that you find a lot

[00:38:31] of newer players struggle with, the humility?

[00:38:35] Like they come in and as soon as,

[00:38:36] I imagine sitting at a table,

[00:38:39] like someone maybe this past weekend comes

[00:38:41] and sits at the table, sees you sitting across from him

[00:38:45] or her and goes, I'm good.

[00:38:48] That's why I'm sitting across the table from Daniel.

[00:38:51] Yeah, delusion and self-awareness is something

[00:38:52] most people struggle with.

[00:38:54] And it's like that whole saying,

[00:38:57] the less you know, right?

[00:38:59] The less you realize how much you don't know, right?

[00:39:03] It's only when you start to expand your knowledge

[00:39:05] of something you realize that like, whoa,

[00:39:07] the more I learn, the more I realize

[00:39:08] how much I don't even know or understand, right?

[00:39:11] But when you first start,

[00:39:12] poker like I always use this analogy because it's true.

[00:39:14] Like poker is in some ways a lot like sex

[00:39:17] in that most people think they're like really good at it

[00:39:21] but they have no idea what they're doing.

[00:39:23] You just, it's like we call it clicking buttons.

[00:39:26] You're just like, I don't know.

[00:39:27] I think I'm really good at it.

[00:39:28] And poker everyone thinks, oh, I'm good at poker.

[00:39:30] I'm like, yeah, you think you are,

[00:39:32] but you don't even have a clue

[00:39:34] how much more complex it is.

[00:39:35] Yeah, I can imagine.

[00:39:38] Who's a player that you looked up to

[00:39:40] when you were starting out?

[00:39:42] Well, there was a few, you know, but like one of,

[00:39:44] I grew up with a guy named Phil Ivy who was considered

[00:39:48] the goat if you will.

[00:39:49] And I just always, we would always talk strategy.

[00:39:51] Yeah, we're still good buddies.

[00:39:52] No, no, I mean like still considered the goat?

[00:39:54] I think so.

[00:39:54] You know, and maybe others would disagree now,

[00:39:56] but I think until you beat the king,

[00:39:59] the king is the king.

[00:40:01] Is he still active?

[00:40:01] Yeah, he's been playing.

[00:40:02] He played over in Asia a lot.

[00:40:04] He plays in some big games in Macau

[00:40:05] and you know, different things like that.

[00:40:07] But I just love his tenacity.

[00:40:10] Like he has a different, we're different in one way.

[00:40:12] I remember years ago, you know,

[00:40:14] TV and stuff was happening with poker.

[00:40:15] He didn't want to do anything with that.

[00:40:17] But that's where I actually started watching you play.

[00:40:19] And then I saw Phil Ivy play

[00:40:21] and Phil Helmuth and Doyle Brunson

[00:40:23] and all those guys are playing.

[00:40:25] I remember like one of the producers of the show

[00:40:26] was like, hey, you wanna help us out

[00:40:27] doing some interviews and stuff like that?

[00:40:29] And Phil is like, he'll do it.

[00:40:30] He's good at that.

[00:40:31] Like, but I don't wanna do none of that.

[00:40:32] So I spent some time doing that,

[00:40:34] like promoting the game, you know,

[00:40:35] doing TV and stuff like that.

[00:40:37] He's a killer.

[00:40:38] He's just at the table, completely focused,

[00:40:41] engaged on what he's doing, you know?

[00:40:42] And I have like the distractions, if you will.

[00:40:44] But I've always admired like how focused he can be.

[00:40:47] You know, that's just not who I am.

[00:40:49] Like I don't, he's different than me too at the table.

[00:40:51] He doesn't talk.

[00:40:52] He wants people uncomfortable in a different way.

[00:40:54] He wants people like tense, you know?

[00:40:57] He wants them on the, you know,

[00:40:59] just scared of him like that.

[00:41:00] And that works for him.

[00:41:02] Is that what separates him from the rest?

[00:41:04] Like when you say he's a killer, he's laser focused.

[00:41:07] He obviously, as you mentioned,

[00:41:08] plays a very different game.

[00:41:10] What else is it that separates him

[00:41:12] from the rest of the table?

[00:41:13] Or from the rest of the table?

[00:41:14] Yeah, no, but it really is.

[00:41:16] It's hyper-focus.

[00:41:17] Not everybody's capable of that.

[00:41:18] And it's certainly not capable

[00:41:20] for extended periods of time.

[00:41:21] Like I said, you know,

[00:41:22] sometimes you play for 12, 13 hours, right?

[00:41:24] Your focus is gonna go in and out.

[00:41:26] He stays focused for the most, like majority of it.

[00:41:29] You know, like he's paying attention

[00:41:30] to every little thing you do.

[00:41:32] You know, the way you just did that with your hand.

[00:41:33] He remembers that.

[00:41:34] He focuses in on every little nuance and detail.

[00:41:37] And you know, a lot of the players

[00:41:38] who play online poker, right?

[00:41:40] They think the game is all math and numbers.

[00:41:43] They don't realize like there's more to it than that.

[00:41:45] So they're playing poker.

[00:41:46] And while they're on their phone texting,

[00:41:49] looking at Twitter, you know,

[00:41:51] they're not seeing all the things that Phil Ivey sees.

[00:41:54] So that's where his edge comes.

[00:41:55] You know, he's totally immersed in what he's doing.

[00:41:58] He has the ability to be present.

[00:42:00] And you know, in poker, you know,

[00:42:02] that really helps you later.

[00:42:04] So for example, let's say I see you do something now,

[00:42:07] right, right at the poker table.

[00:42:08] I might not be able to use that information

[00:42:11] anytime soon, but maybe like six hours later,

[00:42:13] you do it again.

[00:42:14] So I would have lost all my chips,

[00:42:16] but I know what that means when you do this one thing.

[00:42:19] So now I fold my hand.

[00:42:20] So that saved me.

[00:42:21] Whereas the guy who wasn't paying attention,

[00:42:23] they shrug and they go,

[00:42:24] well, nothing I could do.

[00:42:26] It was unlucky.

[00:42:27] When it really wasn't luck

[00:42:28] because you just missed stuff that he saw.

[00:42:30] It surprises me, you know, at the tournaments that I've,

[00:42:34] I can't say I've been a part of them,

[00:42:35] but have witnessed like I was there.

[00:42:39] I see players on their phones.

[00:42:41] I see players texting.

[00:42:42] I see players just chatting with other players

[00:42:44] at other tables while there's a hand,

[00:42:47] like even when they're involved in the hand.

[00:42:48] And I just always thought to myself,

[00:42:50] that was a bit curious because you are, I mean,

[00:42:52] you don't, you may not necessarily have to be

[00:42:54] as laser focused as Phil Ivey,

[00:42:56] but you have to have some level of focus.

[00:42:58] Sure, but like ask yourself this, could you do it?

[00:43:01] Can you sit for 12 hours, right?

[00:43:04] And not be on your,

[00:43:05] like we're all addicted to our phones now, right?

[00:43:07] So we all have these other distractions

[00:43:08] that didn't exist when I started playing

[00:43:10] in the late 90s.

[00:43:11] But you know, and that's what more people

[00:43:12] paid attention, but like, you're just sitting there,

[00:43:14] you know, you're out of hand like this.

[00:43:16] You get a little beep and you're like,

[00:43:17] ah, yeah, you check this, you like that.

[00:43:19] It's very difficult for 12 straight hours to like,

[00:43:22] you know, be laser focused.

[00:43:23] You're gonna find your attention

[00:43:25] in some more than others, right?

[00:43:26] And what you know, what you saw probably is just,

[00:43:28] you know, varying degree of personalities

[00:43:30] and people who, you know, are either a more

[00:43:33] or less addicted to their phones and social media

[00:43:36] or whatever else, texting and stuff like that.

[00:43:38] I wanna go back to the online play

[00:43:40] versus the in-person play.

[00:43:42] Do you have a preference?

[00:43:43] So there's two things, right?

[00:43:45] I play, for me, when I play live poker,

[00:43:47] you know, I can see people, I get that extra advantage.

[00:43:50] Now the other side is the comfort of online poker.

[00:43:52] It's like you get to be on your own couch

[00:43:54] and you're in your underwear, you know,

[00:43:55] and it's a lot of fun.

[00:43:56] You know, it's like a cool software.

[00:43:58] But my advantage is bigger when I play live poker

[00:44:01] versus online because of the people aspect.

[00:44:03] So if someone wanted to start off playing poker,

[00:44:06] would you recommend they start with online or in person?

[00:44:09] Personally, I think like one of the best training rounds

[00:44:11] is like on GG poker is just like

[00:44:15] learning the fundamentals of the game,

[00:44:16] how the mechanics of the game works.

[00:44:18] Cause a lot of people are intimidated

[00:44:20] to go into a casino and they don't know

[00:44:22] how to bet their chips.

[00:44:23] They don't know the etiquette and stuff like that.

[00:44:26] So I do suggest, I think for the most part,

[00:44:29] starting out online, getting your feet wet,

[00:44:31] you know, you can always continue to play online.

[00:44:32] You know, it's on mobile.

[00:44:34] It's, you know, there's a lot of like

[00:44:37] sort of like promotions and things like that,

[00:44:40] but it's a great way to learn.

[00:44:41] You can also watch other players, you know,

[00:44:43] streamers, YouTube, all that kind of stuff.

[00:44:46] And it's just a big thing.

[00:44:47] Yeah, you know, today everyone's doing it, right?

[00:44:50] And then like, that's one way to soak it in

[00:44:53] and you know, you take it to, you know,

[00:44:55] the casinos when you feel like you're comfortable

[00:44:57] and ready and you have a deeper understanding

[00:44:58] of how everything works.

[00:45:01] This has been incredibly insightful.

[00:45:06] If you had one piece of advice

[00:45:10] to share with a new player,

[00:45:12] someone comes to you and says,

[00:45:14] they managed to track you down,

[00:45:16] not in a creepy way, they go,

[00:45:17] hey Daniel, I'm about to start playing poker.

[00:45:21] I have a little bit of experience.

[00:45:22] I wanna take this professionally.

[00:45:24] Like, I wanna take this seriously.

[00:45:25] I wanna become a pro.

[00:45:27] What's the first thing you say to them?

[00:45:29] First of all, that's a good,

[00:45:30] that's what the question I would ask them

[00:45:31] is why do you wanna do this?

[00:45:32] And secondly, I would let them know

[00:45:35] this will not be easy.

[00:45:36] This is where they're gonna require you

[00:45:37] to sacrifice in so many other areas of your life.

[00:45:40] You're gonna have to devote yourself fully

[00:45:41] if you really wanna reach the top.

[00:45:43] And are you willing to make those sacrifices?

[00:45:44] Are you willing to work hard?

[00:45:45] A lot of people say they want something.

[00:45:47] The question is, are they willing to put in the work?

[00:45:49] And you're gonna have to put in the work.

[00:45:50] And you're gonna have to have resilience.

[00:45:53] And you're always gonna have to ask why.

[00:45:55] Like, you don't just play and go home and turn it off.

[00:45:59] When you're done, you have to analyze

[00:46:00] everything you just did.

[00:46:01] And you have to plug those leaks in holes.

[00:46:03] And you gotta continually do that.

[00:46:06] You're never gonna get the place

[00:46:07] where you've got it all figured out.

[00:46:08] You never master this game.

[00:46:10] You're always just getting better and better.

[00:46:12] Don't even feel like you lose this.

[00:46:13] Everyone loses, right?

[00:46:14] And everyone, again, and the ones that stay active,

[00:46:17] there's very few from my era that are.

[00:46:20] It's because they're self-aware enough to know

[00:46:23] that they have to get better every year.

[00:46:27] Okay, now I'm curious.

[00:46:29] Why have you stayed as long as you have?

[00:46:33] When other people from your era have just said,

[00:46:35] you know what, I'm out?

[00:46:36] It's again, it's a combination of a self-awareness

[00:46:39] and a humility to realize that like,

[00:46:41] you don't have everything figured out.

[00:46:42] And for me, I remember a moment

[00:46:44] at the World Series of Poker when I was the young

[00:46:46] up and comer and I saw the older pros

[00:46:48] and they would scoff.

[00:46:49] Oh, these young kids with their aggressive play.

[00:46:51] And I remember to myself, listen,

[00:46:52] I'm better than you now, right?

[00:46:55] You don't even realize it.

[00:46:56] And I said, never become that guy.

[00:46:58] Never become the guy who thinks he's got it all figured

[00:47:00] out and always realize that just because somebody's

[00:47:02] younger than you doesn't mean you can't learn from them.

[00:47:04] So I took on coaches, frankly,

[00:47:06] to help me learn how to use the software

[00:47:09] and like use the solver so I could understand

[00:47:11] what this generation is doing.

[00:47:12] You know? Interesting.

[00:47:13] And that's a humble, you know, for some,

[00:47:15] they're like, I wouldn't wanna coach,

[00:47:16] I'm Daniel LeBron.

[00:47:17] No, no. Of course.

[00:47:18] I wanna learn what they're learning

[00:47:19] and I want them to teach it to me.

[00:47:20] And I'm gonna use it and I'm gonna use my wisdom

[00:47:23] and combine it with the skillset that they're teaching me.

[00:47:25] But there's always new stuff out there, you know?

[00:47:28] Like it's like in sports too, right?

[00:47:31] If you're like a hockey coach or whatever,

[00:47:32] do you like just wanna poo poo analytics?

[00:47:34] I don't need none of that.

[00:47:36] The eye test.

[00:47:37] No, why not use it?

[00:47:38] To your advantage, yeah.

[00:47:39] Why not say, okay, well, this is just information.

[00:47:41] Let's see, well, maybe this is gonna help me

[00:47:42] in some way.

[00:47:43] Absolutely.

[00:47:44] Daniel, thank you so much for coming through.

[00:47:46] Absolutely.

[00:47:47] This was incredible.

[00:47:48] I wanna go play now.

[00:47:50] Yeah.

[00:47:51] Bring out the cards.

[00:47:52] Yeah, exactly.

[00:47:54] What's happening in the world of Daniel?

[00:47:57] You just played the World Series of Poker in Toronto,

[00:48:00] the circuit.

[00:48:01] What's next for you?

[00:48:03] Yeah, so like you said, I'm playing the circuit event.

[00:48:05] Today I'm gonna fly out to Cancun for a wedding,

[00:48:07] go home for a little bit.

[00:48:08] And then really just gears up

[00:48:09] for the World Series of Poker.

[00:48:10] You know, I'm gonna help promote the road to Vegas,

[00:48:13] get more people to come and qualify through GG Poker

[00:48:16] and play the main event.

[00:48:17] And then during the World Series,

[00:48:19] I do a daily vlog on my YouTube channel every day.

[00:48:21] It's 20 to 30 minutes.

[00:48:23] I create a little show, if you will, of the journey.

[00:48:26] Oh, very cool.

[00:48:27] And I also through a site called Poker Stake,

[00:48:30] I give fans an opportunity to buy a piece of the action.

[00:48:34] So that way when they're watching the videos,

[00:48:36] they can live like,

[00:48:37] it's like watching a sporting event.

[00:48:38] You bet on this horse and then you go,

[00:48:40] you get to watch how the horse did.

[00:48:41] Amazing.

[00:48:42] And I presume your YouTube channel

[00:48:43] is just your full name?

[00:48:45] Yeah, if you put my name in,

[00:48:47] it should pop up.

[00:48:48] It'll come up, amazing.

[00:48:49] Daniel, thank you so much.

[00:48:50] Good luck with everything you're doing.

[00:48:51] Enjoy Cancun.

[00:48:53] That sounds incredible.

[00:48:55] And the next time you're in Toronto

[00:48:56] or the next time I'm in Vegas,

[00:48:58] let's do this again sometime.

[00:48:59] All right, we're gonna play high stakes poker.

[00:49:01] We're gonna play high stakes poker, 100%.

[00:49:02] And I won't give anything away.

[00:49:04] I've learned a lot from that.

[00:49:05] Yeah, yeah, you're right.

[00:49:07] Amazing.

[00:49:08] Thank you so much, Daniel.

[00:49:09] Thank you so much, everyone.