Poker Pros Share Winning Mindset: Joe Stapleton, Jen Shahade & Parker Talbot | Ep.131 - Gent's Talk

[00:00:12] Welcome to Gents Talk. Thanks for having us.

[00:00:14] Yeah, thank you.

[00:00:15] This is exciting for me, mostly because I know way less than all of you. And I'm very intrigued,

[00:00:22] because I've had now three different conversations, or four different conversations with poker players, pro poker players. And there always seems to be this like, predisposition to positive thinking, like just this ability to look at the best possible outcome. And even if it doesn't go your way,

[00:00:41] you just find a way to find the silver line.

[00:00:44] Does that happen for you, Parker?

[00:00:48] Yeah, I mean, at Dillage and Poker, you're kind of scorched to pick up and continue, you know?

[00:00:52] Like if you really get bogged down, or you let yourself get destroyed by the bad beats, because there will be a lot of them, or just bad situations, you just won't make it, because you just have to, you know, strap yourself up, just pick your bootstraps up and get onto the next tournament, cash game hand, whatever you find.

[00:01:09] So have you always been that way, or did you have to learn that skill?

[00:01:13] I mean, I've always loved poker so much that it kind of just came naturally, I think, you know?

[00:01:17] Because I just like love playing poker so much when I first got into it when I was 16 years old, that the bad times were just not nearly as, you know, bad as the good times.

[00:01:27] So I was able to just push past it, I guess. But I think I'm a lot better at it these days.

[00:01:31] Jen, when you have, as Parker described it, when you get tilted, something goes wrong, it doesn't work out of your way. How do you stay level?

[00:01:43] Well, I think that in poker and hand in life, it's crucial to give yourself goals that are not about whether you win or lose, but how well you play it.

[00:01:55] And I think that otherwise you've been miserable all the time.

[00:01:59] Because really, there are two things that can happen in poker that feel bad. One is that you get unlucky, that feels bad.

[00:02:05] The other is that you played a hand badly, that feels bad too.

[00:02:08] And because you're playing hundreds of hands, you know, when you play online thousands a day, you really have to separate those two out.

[00:02:18] And if you're upset and you get unlucky and you're upset and you make a little mistake, you will be miserable all day.

[00:02:24] So I think it's so crucial to try to just like focus on one of the two.

[00:02:29] And I would recommend that you focus on the mistakes, not the bad luck.

[00:02:33] Okay. Joe, how do you learn from your mistakes?

[00:02:36] Like, like, was there a technique that you apply when you're going through, you know, not just when you're playing poker, but in life in general, like you're a comedian.

[00:02:43] Yeah. So you're, you're constantly in front of people as well.

[00:02:46] And sometimes jokes may not land.

[00:02:48] You're at an off night sometimes.

[00:02:51] How do you, how do you keep yourself leveled in that moment?

[00:02:54] Well, to sort of co-tell what Jen said, I come from things from a slightly different perspective.

[00:03:02] And I actually get way more upset at getting unlucky than when I get, when I do something wrong.

[00:03:08] I'm actually happy that I do something wrong because there's a lesson in that.

[00:03:11] There's no lesson in getting unlucky.

[00:03:14] So if I do something wrong, I actually, there's two things I like about it.

[00:03:17] One is that I was totally in control of it.

[00:03:19] And two, I can learn something from it.

[00:03:21] So for me, from my perspective, like not just at poker, but at life, like as long as those, like, unfortunately, my mistakes happen in front of a lot of people, which can be quite embarrassing at times.

[00:03:34] Like if I say a joke that doesn't land, but I do a lot of life scripts, right?

[00:03:38] I could say something that could seriously upset or offend thousands or millions of people.

[00:03:44] It's a difficult sort of balancing act to do.

[00:03:47] Luckily, most of my mistakes are something I can learn from.

[00:03:51] So a joke that landing is fine just because like it didn't quite work.

[00:03:54] But a joke that's like offensive is something that is a mistake I can't afford to make.

[00:03:58] But for the most part, I've learned over the years, like you just don't go near that stuff until you try it out on someone else's verse.

[00:04:05] So in moments where it doesn't work out well for you, what are you telling yourself to get yourself ready to go to the next one?

[00:04:12] So there are actually tons of comparisons between poker and stand up comedy in this exact respect when it comes to like block versus skill or how you pick yourself up from your mistakes, because one thing that applies to both of them is that even the greats are going to lose sometimes.

[00:04:30] So it is devastating when it happens to you when you have a show that doesn't go well or that just goes OK or that goes straight up bad.

[00:04:37] But you remember Bill Burr bombs.

[00:04:39] Jerry Seinfeld. OK, maybe he doesn't.

[00:04:41] But people, every huge comedian talks about stories, but they bomb and not just like trying out new material, like on really big stages, like on stage where they probably should not have failed.

[00:04:51] So sometimes things just don't go your way so you can tell yourself that that's one thing that can help get you through both in poker and in comedy.

[00:05:00] And the other thing is that, like once you've had success in the past and you know you're capable of it.

[00:05:07] It's a lot easier to deal with the times where it doesn't happen because you're like, no, no, I'm good at this.

[00:05:13] Either I screwed up or I got unlucky, but it doesn't mean I'm never going to be there again.

[00:05:17] And it stings. It stings. I think that we've all laid awake at night after busting out of poker tournaments, right?

[00:05:24] You just lay there staring at the ceiling till five o'clock in the morning.

[00:05:27] So angry with yourself or angry with sort of the way the cards came out.

[00:05:30] And I've done what that with stand up shows, too.

[00:05:32] But the reason you go back out there is you're like, but I know I'm good at this and I know I can do it.

[00:05:38] Parker, when was the last time you had a really bad set up over that just kept you up?

[00:05:44] But you really sort of sit there and reflect on where you went wrong and just...

[00:05:49] Can I say something about Parker really quick before he answers?

[00:05:51] Sure.

[00:05:52] Parker's really, really, really good at poker and doesn't make a ton of mistakes.

[00:05:58] That's like funny enough.

[00:05:59] You go build Parker with their mistakes so that Parker can go, hmm, how did you mess this up?

[00:06:06] He's going to be, look, everyone makes mistakes. He's really humble.

[00:06:08] But I want you to know that Parker is a frickin' genius.

[00:06:11] Okay.

[00:06:11] It's fair. I'm going to die in very, very kind, but definitely not.

[00:06:14] My whole existence is just making mistakes.

[00:06:16] You know, we were joking before, but we're bailing upwards.

[00:06:18] You know, I feel like it's a really good way to be in poker, you know?

[00:06:21] Because like you just constantly, like general, you just constantly make mistakes.

[00:06:24] Like regardless of how well you play, regardless of how much you study,

[00:06:27] like there's so many variables that just change constantly that like everything leaves.

[00:06:30] Then you can go out the window and then just make a new mistake.

[00:06:32] You know, like poker is just all about making mistakes.

[00:06:35] So, I don't know. Like I have like lots of mistakes that I've made deep in Terrence,

[00:06:39] but then honestly, it just like kind of wash off.

[00:06:41] Like I get tilted for, generally, I like to be left alone after busting a big spot for like three to five minutes.

[00:06:47] You know, three to five minutes and I'm in like my own world of tilts.

[00:06:49] And then like outside of that, I'm like, just like back to normal.

[00:06:52] Like don't care.

[00:06:52] So what are you doing there in that moment, in that three or five minutes?

[00:06:56] How are you getting yourself from tilted to back to normal?

[00:06:58] I don't know. I just tilt for five minutes.

[00:06:59] Like that's how you just start yourself.

[00:07:01] I just need to be alone for like five minutes, you know?

[00:07:03] I'll just like not hear congratulations or condolences or anything like that.

[00:07:08] And just like breathe for five minutes.

[00:07:10] Maybe, yeah, have a cigarette or something.

[00:07:12] I walk alone for two minutes and then I'm good.

[00:07:14] Or not even, you know?

[00:07:15] But honestly, not even.

[00:07:17] Just like five minutes is good generally for me.

[00:07:21] But I do have one memory of losing a lot of money playing in a cash game where I definitely should have left.

[00:07:26] And I definitely stayed way, way, way, way, way too long and lost a lot more money than I should have.

[00:07:31] I'm in just under 100K.

[00:07:35] And I'm wondering.

[00:07:36] Dollars?

[00:07:37] Yeah, it was not a good night.

[00:07:39] It was a very bad night.

[00:07:40] And that's very, very like rare, you know?

[00:07:42] It's not many days in my poker career where I've won or lost that much money, you know?

[00:07:47] So like this was like a time when I was going in maybe losing at absolute worst $20,000, $25,000, you know?

[00:07:53] And one thing led to another.

[00:07:55] I was down a lot of money.

[00:07:56] But yeah, that one's done and then stay with me for a while.

[00:07:59] So what was the lesson you learned from that specific moment?

[00:08:02] Definitely don't, you know, over say you're welcome.

[00:08:04] You know, like don't be tilted which was like kind of like one of the original things that we talked about.

[00:08:08] Like, you know, don't let tilt bother you.

[00:08:09] And when it does bother you, you have to like to set, stand up and walk away.

[00:08:13] Can we do that in tournaments so much, right?

[00:08:14] You kind of have to battle through because you can't pause the tournament to take a five minute breather break for yourself.

[00:08:20] But it actually is kind of even asleep.

[00:08:22] And this night I definitely stayed like six or seven hours, like past my point of no return.

[00:08:26] That was one of the biggest mistakes I made at poker.

[00:08:29] Jen, when Parker talks about failing upwards, is that a strategy that you apply for yourself?

[00:08:35] Or do you look at life from that perspective as well?

[00:08:38] Oh, absolutely.

[00:08:39] I mean, the thing about poker in life is the more chances you get yourself to win, the more likely you are to win.

[00:08:46] So the idea that every time you fail, it shows that you've gotten one more shot in there.

[00:08:51] And this doesn't just apply to poker.

[00:08:52] Like if you can play more poker tournaments, then your chances of doing well in one of them go way up.

[00:08:57] Obviously, if you do more shows, if you write more essays, if you make more sales balls, your chances of succeeding are so much hotter.

[00:09:05] And I think you have to kind of accept the fact that sometimes volume is more important than quality.

[00:09:11] So you can't always play your A game in poker.

[00:09:14] If you were only playing your A game, then you would have to like, you know, play way, way less frequently.

[00:09:19] And then your chances of doing well will go way down.

[00:09:22] So I think sometimes when you're not necessarily playing your best, you didn't do your absolute best job, but you got there.

[00:09:31] Right?

[00:09:31] They say that cliche that 99% of success is just showing up.

[00:09:36] Like, no, that is absolutely true.

[00:09:38] You know, getting there and multiplying your chances as much as possible.

[00:09:42] I think we talked about that in like our chat being up to what we did coming here.

[00:09:45] Just about how just volume over like not volume over study or crack us, but like volume is like number wise.

[00:09:53] Yeah.

[00:09:54] Rest petition, just getting the refs in to seeing the same hands over and over, seeing the same players.

[00:09:58] You know, just everything is just refs, refs, refs, refs, refs.

[00:10:01] And poker is my biggest recommendation.

[00:10:03] And I have, I go to a lot of workshops over the years for both chess and for poker.

[00:10:08] And I'd say the number one question I'd add about mental game is I feel nervous before an event.

[00:10:15] What do I do?

[00:10:16] I don't believe in myself.

[00:10:17] I have imposter syndrome.

[00:10:19] I get that kind of questions from people a lot.

[00:10:22] From all genders.

[00:10:22] I'm usually the one asking.

[00:10:24] Yeah.

[00:10:24] A lot of things from women, but honestly, from all genders.

[00:10:27] And I think that one really good technique is to come up with like a folder of confidence.

[00:10:34] And these are like hands in poker would be like hands that you play like above the rig that you just made a play.

[00:10:40] It was so outstanding.

[00:10:41] It dazzled everyone.

[00:10:42] In Chastain would be like the most beautiful moves you ever played, beating somebody way better than you.

[00:10:47] It's like keeping receipts of your eyes.

[00:10:49] You review, reviewing.

[00:10:50] Yeah.

[00:10:51] Reviewing them when you're in your lowest moments to go, okay, I did all of those things.

[00:10:55] I'm capable of doing more.

[00:10:56] Do you do that?

[00:10:58] Well, the way I have to psych myself up is I have to say things that I might not believe to be true.

[00:11:05] Like maybe some part of me thinks they're true, but other that imposter syndrome thing.

[00:11:10] Right?

[00:11:10] Like I definitely struggle with that.

[00:11:11] And like when they're about to call my name to go on stage, sometimes I am sick to my stomach.

[00:11:16] And what I have to say to myself is, is this a swearing podcast or not?

[00:11:20] It's wearing a podcast.

[00:11:21] You're the funniest fucking person in this room.

[00:11:23] You're the funniest fucking person in this room.

[00:11:25] This audience is so lucky to get to see you.

[00:11:28] And that makes me sound like you believe doodly.

[00:11:30] I don't think about that in my real life.

[00:11:31] But saying that to myself, as I'm like pacing around, waiting to go on stage, it does help.

[00:11:37] Just that I guess it's an affirmation or whatever, like just putting it in.

[00:11:40] It's not really creating the universe.

[00:11:42] It's a little too frou-frou, but like you hearing that and whatever little part of you believes it is what gets you through it.

[00:11:48] And poker players have to do the same thing.

[00:11:50] Like for a poker player to walk into a tournament that's got 800 people to think I'm the best player here.

[00:11:56] That's nuts.

[00:11:57] That's that's that's out of control.

[00:11:59] But a lot tons of pros that I know genuinely think that when they walk in the room and they win.

[00:12:05] There is something to be said about positive affirmations and telling yourself that bar.

[00:12:09] I can't do the opposite, to be honest.

[00:12:11] Really?

[00:12:12] Yeah.

[00:12:12] I just always think I'm going to lose this.

[00:12:14] It's very hard to win.

[00:12:15] And I definitely don't think I'm fristing.

[00:12:16] I'm shocked to hear you say that.

[00:12:18] I mean, I did.

[00:12:19] Yeah, no, I just always had like a much more less expectations and like less goals approach

[00:12:26] and see what happens.

[00:12:27] Like I go into it thinking that I'm going to put my best poker forward and like play well

[00:12:31] and see what happens, you know?

[00:12:32] But like, I don't go in thinking like, I'm going to be so much better than everybody today

[00:12:36] and I'm going to destroy everybody.

[00:12:38] And like, I'm just going to like win because poker is just like luck as well.

[00:12:42] You know, like stand up.

[00:12:43] I feel like you can do this way more where like you can affirm yourself and take more

[00:12:47] halves like with yourself.

[00:12:48] But like poker, you're still the slave for the cards, you know?

[00:12:50] Like regardless.

[00:12:51] There's a lot less variance in stand up.

[00:12:53] Yeah.

[00:12:53] See, there's still a bunch of them.

[00:12:54] And like a whole bunch of ways on my thing.

[00:12:56] But like in poker, you just, you know, lose two flips in a row and you're turning your

[00:12:59] day's dead.

[00:12:59] You know, it doesn't matter how big of a stack you built for the date hours before that.

[00:13:02] And that just happened.

[00:13:03] So that like kind of a left fact, like there's dumping wrong covers.

[00:13:07] Obviously, it's still the insane guys are winning all the time and all the high rollers

[00:13:09] and everything.

[00:13:10] But yeah, just for that kind of reason, I always just go into things, you know, not

[00:13:14] thinking that I'm going to win, but not necessarily going to lose.

[00:13:17] But just assuming that, you know, nine times the other time I am to lose.

[00:13:20] You know, you only need a cash or poker tournament around 20% of the time, even if you're elite,

[00:13:24] you know?

[00:13:25] So, Barber, you just recently, if I'm not mistaken, won your first live tournament.

[00:13:30] Okay.

[00:13:30] 15 years, yeah.

[00:13:32] I mean, 14 years, played a lot of live tournaments, didn't win one for a long time,

[00:13:37] but now I have.

[00:13:37] So what kept you going?

[00:13:39] I mean, like that concept of walking to the Joe's point, walking into a room with like

[00:13:43] 800 people and going, I, you know, I'm going to come out on top.

[00:13:48] But you also said that you don't approach it the same way where you don't think you're

[00:13:51] going to win.

[00:13:52] I just hope I win at some point, you know?

[00:13:54] But I just always assumed, I never say goals in poker because there's so much variance,

[00:13:58] you know?

[00:13:58] So I just always go into it assuming that I'm beating what I'm playing, you know?

[00:14:02] And if I'm beating what I'm playing, then eventually over time, I'm going to win.

[00:14:05] You know, that's like at least like what I like to hope for.

[00:14:07] And I think like also there's like a big ego versus no ego thing of poker.

[00:14:12] Like Joe said, there's like definitely players that walk in the room like I am the god of

[00:14:15] this poker room.

[00:14:16] I'm going to shake everyone's ass today, you know?

[00:14:18] But then there's also, I feel like people without ego, I feel like I'm more towards the

[00:14:22] no ego side.

[00:14:23] And like that allows me to like learn from other people, I think a lot more and like

[00:14:27] pick up on stuff that they do.

[00:14:28] And like, I always felt like that's how I've been into a lot of poker was just learning from

[00:14:32] the best players that I played against regularly, you know?

[00:14:34] But when it comes to just the overall game of playing poker, what's the biggest lesson

[00:14:39] you've learned from some of your meta doors?

[00:14:41] In within poker or did it transfer like how you approach it?

[00:14:45] Like not specific, like, you know, you've got certain cards in your hand and there's

[00:14:49] cards on the table.

[00:14:50] It's more so just the within all of it.

[00:14:52] Yeah.

[00:14:53] A friend of mine when I was like 90 years old, excuse me, and I was going through the process

[00:14:58] of dropping it in school.

[00:14:59] He was like, what do you want poker?

[00:15:01] And I was like, I don't know.

[00:15:02] I want to wake up tomorrow and play cards, you know?

[00:15:05] So he's like, well, think about it.

[00:15:06] He was like, you're going to like forego an education and not have like a future or

[00:15:11] something, you know, not having something that you're paying into for your retirement,

[00:15:14] just something like that.

[00:15:15] You have to like build towards something and make a goal for yourself, you know?

[00:15:18] So it was like set aside like an amount of money or like a place you want to be or like

[00:15:21] something that you want to be at in like next five years.

[00:15:23] And like I said before, I'm not really big on goals, but like that was something for

[00:15:27] me to like, if I'm not like mentally in a place or like was where I wanted to be

[00:15:32] in poker, if I wasn't there when I was like 25, like I probably would have like 24

[00:15:35] to admit, be 20.

[00:15:36] So it's in my mind.

[00:15:37] Like if I'm not somewhere, then I'll pick up and try something else.

[00:15:39] You know?

[00:15:40] I do think if you go through life being a poker player or whatever, you know, you don't

[00:15:44] build, you build a lot of life skills and whatnot, maybe a lot of transferable skills,

[00:15:47] but you don't have like a education, you know, you don't have years of work working at a company,

[00:15:54] you know, at some kind of job that you have people to resume for.

[00:15:56] You're just like, yeah, I play a lot of poker and I want some money for a while.

[00:15:59] And like a lot of people do fall into that trap.

[00:16:02] So that's probably the biggest thing that I learned early on and just got kind of lucky

[00:16:05] also to run did early on in my career and win.

[00:16:08] And yeah, just probably just knowing where you need to be in like the future, especially

[00:16:16] in like a very uncertain game like poker.

[00:16:18] That was like a big way from the area.

[00:16:19] I'm not sure if that was overall.

[00:16:20] What do you want it?

[00:16:21] But, uh, oh yeah, it's that's the lesson that you've learned.

[00:16:23] Jen, speaking of multi approaches to things, you are a grandmaster in chess, which is so

[00:16:31] cool, by the way, the first grandmaster I've ever spoken to.

[00:16:34] Thank you.

[00:16:35] Um, how do you apply what you do in the world of chess to what you do in poker?

[00:16:43] Is there similarities?

[00:16:44] Are they wildly different?

[00:16:46] Like when you talk a little earlier about the mental game, I'm very fascinated to understand

[00:16:51] how you approach that.

[00:16:51] Well, I think they'd be playing like almost exactly the same game.

[00:16:55] Chess and poker are so similar.

[00:16:57] I think that, uh, chess is a beautiful game.

[00:17:01] It's an ancient game.

[00:17:02] And probably the biggest difference you could say with poker is that in chess, you almost,

[00:17:08] you know, you're always playing, um, one verse long and, and poker usually we play with

[00:17:11] many people and it's also very social poker games.

[00:17:16] A lot about psychology and people and chess has that element too, but it's a little bit more

[00:17:21] a bit more, uh, just, uh, that, that more comes into like the preparation.

[00:17:27] Um, so in, in poker, I would say that, uh, the preparation that that's really what reminds

[00:17:35] me, um, between the two games that so much of the work comes before you can sit down.

[00:17:40] So how do you prepare for a big chess game?

[00:17:44] And then how do you prepare for a big poker game?

[00:17:47] Well, big chess game, uh, the way that you best prepare is you look at the eight games

[00:17:51] that go up on it and you try to figure out what they're going to do.

[00:17:54] And then you really look for something that's going to make them uncomfortable.

[00:17:59] And that's, that's a really poker skill actually.

[00:18:01] In fact, the number one chess player on the road right now in Angus Carlsen, and he loves

[00:18:05] poker and he's played in some poker stars events and he's actually renowned for that

[00:18:09] particular skill.

[00:18:10] Not always playing the best move, but playing the move that's going to annoy the heck out

[00:18:14] of his opponent.

[00:18:15] And of course that's exactly what poker players do all the time.

[00:18:19] And in chess, it was a little bit more novel.

[00:18:21] And that's one of the reasons he became the best in Oral.

[00:18:24] This is the moment you've all been waiting for.

[00:18:29] I just dragged the pot like a champ.

[00:18:30] Game on.

[00:18:33] Look at the camera, the lights and the action.

[00:18:35] Look at the way that we're taking advantage.

[00:18:39] You see me now, now look at me vanish.

[00:18:41] I see the look in your eyes.

[00:18:43] It'd be the look of surprise.

[00:18:44] Oh my God.

[00:18:45] That's just a part of the game.

[00:18:46] Uh huh.

[00:18:47] You gotta look for the prize.

[00:18:50] That was one for the cameras, wasn't it?

[00:18:53] Look at the way that we're in it.

[00:18:54] That's awesome!

[00:18:55] I like your style, huh?

[00:18:58] I win!

[00:19:18] So is there an element, like, I'm fascinated to understand the social element of like poker.

[00:19:24] When you're sitting at a table and we've got tons of other people in front of you,

[00:19:29] most of whom might be strangers to you.

[00:19:31] You know, how are you sort of surveying the people at the table?

[00:19:34] How are you surveying what your options are going to be, what you're going to be doing?

[00:19:37] And how do you keep yourself, Joe, present while you're still trying to think about all these other things?

[00:19:43] You're also still playing.

[00:19:44] Well, you actually picked the perfect guy to answer this question because for me, poker is purely a social game.

[00:19:50] I'm not playing it for a living.

[00:19:52] I'm playing it for fun.

[00:19:53] And part of that fun for me is experiencing different people.

[00:19:57] And what I really love about it is that you're getting to know people just enough at the poker table.

[00:20:05] It's not super deep.

[00:20:06] You're getting, you're also getting to know the best parts of them a lot of the time, the parts that are fun, the parts that are playing a game.

[00:20:12] So for me, that's one of the most appealing things about poker.

[00:20:16] And one thing I wanted to say about if your goal in poker is only to win, you are going to be disappointed more often.

[00:20:24] Parker, if because you play poker professionally, I'm wondering at what point we had in this conversation yesterday.

[00:20:33] I think this was with chance.

[00:20:35] We were talking about how, you know, if you start to or sorry, it was actually was Wolfgang.

[00:20:41] If you pursue something too much, you stop at doing it.

[00:20:45] It's no longer a passion.

[00:20:47] It becomes just a draw.

[00:20:48] But sure, a lot of professional athletes say the same thing.

[00:20:51] When they're off seasons, they've intentionally tried to detach themselves from something because that it's just too much for them.

[00:20:57] Poker is kind of an all year round effect.

[00:20:58] You can play at any time of day anywhere in the world, all 365 days of the year.

[00:21:04] Do you ever find that because you're approaching it from a professional perspective that it's there's moments where you just need to step away from it?

[00:21:12] Yeah, for sure.

[00:21:13] I mean, and I have, you know, like I had like two kinds of my life where like I didn't play poker for like, I don't know, like eight months and like nine months or something like that.

[00:21:21] You know, I spent quite a lot of time just.

[00:21:23] I also really use poker though, like switching between games, not necessarily games, but like experimenting with new formats of poker.

[00:21:30] So like I when I first started playing, I played tournaments and then I was a sit and go grinder, which is just like, you know, made me a six player tournament just over and over and over again instead of big tournaments that we play now.

[00:21:40] Mostly I played live cash when I first started these days.

[00:21:44] I'm playing a lot of games, which is just like a bunch of nonsense.

[00:21:47] Troll games kind of thing, but there's so much fun.

[00:21:51] And yeah, I mean, I could still transition into like the aggressive high stakes realm at some point.

[00:21:56] I think if I wanted to try and play like a super high rollers and stuff like that, maybe one day, but there's still more to explore.

[00:22:02] You know, I've always kind of used like the different stepping stones of different games and variants and stuff to not keep myself excited, you know, because I definitely was an online grinder for a long time.

[00:22:11] And these days I would call myself more of like a live player because I definitely play more live stops, more live events.

[00:22:17] I'm here in Vegas with all the EPPs, go to Irish Open.

[00:22:20] So yeah, we bounce around to like all the live stops and play a lot of live cards compared to the online realm these days.

[00:22:25] So yeah, just try to keep it moving.

[00:22:27] I never get bored of poker or chess because I do a lot of things.

[00:22:32] So life always is interesting for me in terms of like chess, poker.

[00:22:36] I also am a writer and a speaker.

[00:22:37] I think if I only did poker, I would probably need to give myself breaks.

[00:22:43] And yeah, that's crucial.

[00:22:46] But I personally find game extremely rich.

[00:22:49] And like Barker said, I think that switching from online and live really always keeps it interesting because to me they're completely different.

[00:22:57] And they're loud and bold.

[00:22:58] And yeah, I love the biggest difference between them.

[00:23:01] Well, I think live, it's so much about people, right?

[00:23:04] They say that it's a game of people with cards and you know, it's fun.

[00:23:09] It's social.

[00:23:10] But it's also like you're trying to read people and understand what their desires are.

[00:23:14] What do they want from this tournament?

[00:23:16] What do they fear?

[00:23:16] And like you're also trying to, you know, make some new friends and contacts, right?

[00:23:20] Whereas online, it's so much about the game itself.

[00:23:23] I was just saying, I was just saying this is a very generous way to say that online poker, it's much more skillful and technical.

[00:23:29] And online poker is much less technical and much less skillful.

[00:23:32] Oh, it had more art to it.

[00:23:33] I mean, there's a, you know, people definitely think there's more of an art to it, but you know.

[00:23:38] No, no, no, art, not that way.

[00:23:39] No, art as in like the enjoyment of it.

[00:23:42] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:23:43] It's a different beast.

[00:23:44] But yeah, I think people think that there's a lot more like reading people and stuff like that in live poker.

[00:23:47] But I think there's a lot of, there's a couple elite readers in the world.

[00:23:51] But for the most part, like, you know, most of us laymen aren't reading anything off of our opponents, you know?

[00:23:57] It's very romantic to talk about reading people.

[00:23:59] Yeah, it's something that gets people interested in poker, but it's like not really that much of a thing.

[00:24:05] Unless you're playing, I guess, super, super amateur player.

[00:24:08] Well, not their faces, but you know, kind of the best they make.

[00:24:10] So how do you, Jed, how do you, how do you see patterns?

[00:24:15] What do you look for?

[00:24:16] Because I feel like that is a skill set that can be applied in everyday life.

[00:24:20] Whether you're in a corporate job, whether you have nothing to do with poker, you can still utilize that skill set of recognizing patterns and the way people behave.

[00:24:30] Yeah, recognizing what people do when they really want something, right?

[00:24:34] Whether they really want this pop, but they actually can't, you know, don't have the cards to get it.

[00:24:41] And definitely true, Monica, and somebody who's just like overly persistent bugging you about something.

[00:24:46] And you can see that they don't really have what hits to back it up.

[00:24:50] So I think there's a lot of analogies there and a lot of patterns that you can pick up on poker and chess and in life.

[00:24:56] And pattern recognition, is it memory?

[00:24:58] What do you think?

[00:24:59] I was talking to a world memory camp about this by Gen Axel 8.

[00:25:02] Do you think that pattern recognition is memory?

[00:25:05] I think so.

[00:25:07] Yeah.

[00:25:07] I mean, that's the, that's the, my default answer.

[00:25:10] I guess I'd have to really think about it.

[00:25:12] But I imagine, you know, if someone behaves a certain way when they're doing something, whether they're at the poker table or whether you're in a relationship with them or it's a family member, they behave a certain way and then you notice them do it again.

[00:25:24] And you sort of understand why they're behaving that way.

[00:25:27] You're going off memory.

[00:25:28] But it's definitely analytical as well because you have to analyze like the emotion of figure out a little bit like where it's a, that's a combination, I guess, of analytical memory.

[00:25:37] And a bit of intuition as well.

[00:25:38] It's not quite as discreet as like, oh, I remember this exact like a list of words or this exact, this many digits apply.

[00:25:46] It's like a sense that I've seen this type of betting pattern before when they were bluffing.

[00:25:52] Maybe they're bluffing again.

[00:25:53] I've seen this behavior before from somebody who was not trustworthy.

[00:25:57] Maybe they're not trustworthy again.

[00:25:59] I will say that poker has definitely honed my ability to analyze people's behavior and to which ends it their intentions a lot of the time when maybe I would have developed that skill on my own as I matured and recognize patterns over the years.

[00:26:14] But definitely poker has trained me to be like, oh, when someone does this one thing, what do they really mean when they say it?

[00:26:22] What are they really trying to accomplish by sending me this note?

[00:26:26] What did that text message actually mean?

[00:26:28] And we do is people tend to like read into stuff a little bit too much.

[00:26:31] But I think poker has made it made me really able to recognize people's true intentions a lot faster than before I had this skill set.

[00:26:40] Yeah, I think a good way to think about sort of intro, a really good way that I've come to realize, at least how I think about it is, I think probably a lot of people think about poker and just situations like this, but maybe don't register as much.

[00:26:53] But I just love player profiles these days of like how, because as human beings, we all kind of fall into like the same category.

[00:27:00] And we're all super similar, but then like a few things that it's apart and like in weaker poker players or like anyone like professional to amateur level, but not super duper elite, I think kind of falls into like, maybe like one of five, six, seven, eight categories of like player style, you know?

[00:27:16] And I think like we just make a lot of what I make a lot of assessments, like which bracket they fall into. And then from that bracket, I make a whole bunch of like, determinations and judgments about like how they're going to play poker and betting patterns.

[00:27:26] And like once they confirm some of them, you know, a lot, lot them in like this group. That's how my brain works. It sounds a lot worse as I say that loud, to be honest, and way less cohesive than I thought originally.

[00:27:36] But yeah, I think it works. But for me, player profiles is like a really good way to like nail down like pattern recognition for poker.

[00:27:45] For poker.

[00:27:46] You don't have player profile for people in your everyday.

[00:27:49] Well, I definitely do, but I just always think about it less than it's probably less distinct, right?

[00:27:53] Yeah, but you have it, but it's not so much of like a finite thing that you I definitely put them in the category.

[00:28:00] But in your mind, you know, sort of where they fall at, where they rank.

[00:28:03] Like, I could think if I meet somebody new for the first time, still like 15 minutes with them, I can probably turn them whether or not like, I want to be a friend, a good friend with them, you know, or something like, like if this could be like someone that I want to spend a lot of time with.

[00:28:14] How much of that is the intuition that Jen was just talking about?

[00:28:17] Good question.

[00:28:18] Yeah, it's not that you're wrong.

[00:28:19] That's the job that I was like, one of my best friends now, I remember the first time I met her.

[00:28:24] Um, I was like, I don't like that one better at all.

[00:28:27] She just like, she just said my sounds like slow at walking, like what's going on?

[00:28:32] And then I somehow became like, for best.

[00:28:34] Like, this happens in poker too.

[00:28:36] But like, this person is definitely bluffing.

[00:28:39] I'm just gonna fold here.

[00:28:41] I mean, I'm gonna fall on their call here.

[00:28:42] And, uh, you know, you're just wrong.

[00:28:45] Like so much of the battle.

[00:28:46] That's what I was saying about reads, you know?

[00:28:48] Yeah.

[00:28:48] Cause I feel like there's just such infinite bias with like anything with like reads or like, even pattern or penis, you know?

[00:28:54] Like the human brain just like tells it what it wants to hear in like so many situations.

[00:28:58] Like if you're not read up on a situation and you really want to call this bluff, you're gonna convince this guy that this guy has this bluff.

[00:29:06] This guy has the sping ear, you know?

[00:29:08] Like convince yourself that he's Mrs. Blush drop.

[00:29:11] You know, like usually Bogers has it.

[00:29:13] Okay.

[00:29:13] So I'm gonna give you an example of all that.

[00:29:14] I don't know.

[00:29:15] Yesterday I was playing in my very first live tournament.

[00:29:20] And cool.

[00:29:21] It was a mixture of like anxiety, nervousness, excitement, all bundled into one.

[00:29:26] Did you get Poker Stomach?

[00:29:28] When I play at a tournament, like they're seasoned pros.

[00:29:32] Like I get, I get Poker Stomach.

[00:29:33] Meaning what?

[00:29:34] You know that little hot belly that you have to run to the bathroom or a little.

[00:29:38] I can call it butterflies.

[00:29:40] That's much nicer.

[00:29:41] Yeah, we were gonna say butterfly, Poker Stomach, stand up stomach.

[00:29:43] Come on, we all do that.

[00:29:44] We all go.

[00:29:45] I'm telling you.

[00:29:45] Yeah, well you produce some nice rice frag.

[00:29:47] He gets it sometimes.

[00:29:48] You probably get that one on deep for sure.

[00:29:50] You know, like we're not on K1, but like they, you weren't that much anxiety if you didn't

[00:29:54] have hot stomachs.

[00:29:55] So, so my heart rate was humbaked.

[00:29:57] Okay.

[00:29:57] My normal resting heart rate is in the low 40s.

[00:30:00] And I looked at my stats and it's spike double.

[00:30:03] And just by sitting down at the table.

[00:30:05] Nice.

[00:30:05] Nice.

[00:30:06] And I was like, okay.

[00:30:07] I remember, I was thinking about our conversation.

[00:30:10] I was thinking about lessons I had learned from Boston.

[00:30:13] Rob Wolfgang, Chance, just like trying to apply all of the lessons I had learned in the last

[00:30:18] like 24 hours.

[00:30:19] Okay.

[00:30:20] I got this.

[00:30:20] That sounds fire.

[00:30:21] I'm sitting down at the table.

[00:30:23] Uh, I don't know anybody obviously.

[00:30:25] And I'm just trying to stay present.

[00:30:28] And that there's so much information coming at me from all of these people.

[00:30:31] And that's when I started thinking in that moment, I'm like, there's no way I can try

[00:30:35] to read all that.

[00:30:36] Yeah.

[00:30:37] It's just too much.

[00:30:38] It's too much information.

[00:30:39] It's overload.

[00:30:39] And then also I'm kind of making assumptions on the guy sitting in the corner of the

[00:30:43] wasn't said a word or smile based on your biases.

[00:30:45] Exactly.

[00:30:46] Yeah.

[00:30:46] So, yeah.

[00:30:46] So, I sit in there and making these assumptions and then I'm like, okay, I need to focus on

[00:30:50] just the cards.

[00:30:51] Right.

[00:30:52] And I managed to become chip leader at the table.

[00:30:55] Amazing.

[00:30:55] So excited.

[00:30:56] And then, uh, I was the big blind and forgive me because I don't know all the terminology

[00:31:02] properly, but I was a big blind and, uh, everyone limped in.

[00:31:07] So, everyone just called the big blind.

[00:31:08] And I was like, I had a two and a six suited.

[00:31:10] And I was like, okay, well, I'm not gonna really do anything with this.

[00:31:12] But then everyone limped in.

[00:31:13] So, I'm like, we'll see what happens.

[00:31:15] It came out to Jack six.

[00:31:18] I was like, holy shit.

[00:31:19] This is going to be fun.

[00:31:20] I had no intentions of playing this, but it turned out to be rude.

[00:31:23] But that's, that's one of my favorite moments.

[00:31:25] About what about it?

[00:31:26] Right.

[00:31:26] Is like where you're just like, oh, I don't have to think that hard about this

[00:31:29] because I have a, and you're supposed to think so.

[00:31:32] You're doing no matter what.

[00:31:33] But you're like, this is going to be fun.

[00:31:34] Yay.

[00:31:35] This is going to be fun.

[00:31:36] That's what most of us recreational players are playing for that moment.

[00:31:40] We go.

[00:31:40] Yes.

[00:31:41] Well, I was trying to, as you know, you said the other thing in my turn, but that'd be

[00:31:44] a fucking jammer.

[00:31:46] Well, here's the thing.

[00:31:47] So, the turn and the river were not jacks.

[00:31:49] Okay.

[00:31:50] Um, I just kept raising again.

[00:31:52] So, I raised on the flop, raised on the turn.

[00:31:54] And then there was only one more player left.

[00:31:58] He basically re-raised me to the point where it was about 80% of my stack.

[00:32:04] Now, like, all right, well, you know what?

[00:32:06] I'm kind of committed at this point.

[00:32:07] I'm very confident.

[00:32:08] I'm, I don't know if I was way more confident that I should have been.

[00:32:11] Okay.

[00:32:11] But I thought to myself, at most, he's got a high pair, right?

[00:32:15] Because he was aggressive as well on the flop and there was the jack.

[00:32:18] So, I went all in.

[00:32:20] Because I also thought, you know what?

[00:32:22] If I'm not going to have fun with this, why not?

[00:32:24] Turned out he had trip jacks.

[00:32:26] No, trip jacks.

[00:32:26] He had two jacks in his hand and he hit the jack.

[00:32:29] And then on top of that, I was like, okay.

[00:32:32] So, now I'm like, I learned from super high to super low in that really, really, like, instant.

[00:32:38] In that moment, before I sort of tell the rest of the story, how would you recalibrate yourself?

[00:32:44] So, I'm going to let them answer that question because they're way more called.

[00:32:47] Okay.

[00:32:47] But what I want to say, I think what happened there to your detriment a little bit was when you said, all I'm going to do is focus on me.

[00:32:53] Okay.

[00:32:54] Right?

[00:32:54] And what you were doing in that moment is you were only thinking about you and not thinking about, well, why is this person still in this hand with me?

[00:33:03] And raising me on the river.

[00:33:04] Why are they here?

[00:33:05] Like, I know why I'm here.

[00:33:07] Why are they here?

[00:33:07] And your assumption was like, oh, they must be a very bad player really is what you were thinking about.

[00:33:13] They're a very bad player.

[00:33:14] They couldn't be considerate that I have two pair here.

[00:33:17] And so, you were sort of doing it to yourself in that instance that you can't always just be like, I'm only going to focus on my cards in the board.

[00:33:25] At that point, you have to start letting some of that other information in.

[00:33:28] Okay.

[00:33:30] But that's not the question you asked.

[00:33:31] But I just want to ask you how I will share it.

[00:33:33] Oh, that's great.

[00:33:34] I mean, you named them the technical information.

[00:33:36] So now we can take the mental game.

[00:33:39] Because your question was how can you really collect Calibrates?

[00:33:42] So sad because we're having so much fun.

[00:33:44] Big stack.

[00:33:45] And then you also get this two pair.

[00:33:47] That's exciting.

[00:33:48] Yeah.

[00:33:49] And now it's like a balloon popping.

[00:33:51] You know, like the air gets sucked out of the room and you go from being a false stack to a short one.

[00:33:58] And there's no real easy answer.

[00:34:00] Sorry.

[00:34:01] It's not as my advice.

[00:34:02] It's not as my advice.

[00:34:03] You still have chips?

[00:34:04] I still do.

[00:34:05] So that's all we care about.

[00:34:07] So we don't know.

[00:34:08] That's all we care about.

[00:34:09] It's called it.

[00:34:10] No, it's all the upstuck.

[00:34:11] When you have like, say, set a term with 30,000, right?

[00:34:14] You build to 60,000 and then you lose some hands and I've only got 35,000.

[00:34:18] You like feel the bag because you're upstuck from like your peak, you know?

[00:34:21] But like, as long as you have chips in front of you, as long as you're still in the tournament, you can still run it back up.

[00:34:27] So it's been like a long time, but for like five or six years, I've been like, I played live poker.

[00:34:30] I was just like always on max tilt whenever I build a stack and then lose chips.

[00:34:34] But like nowadays, I'm just like, well, I'm still in.

[00:34:36] In half an hour, I can have the same stack or more, you know?

[00:34:39] So it's like, as long as you're still in the tournament, I've run up stacks from one chip so many times, you know?

[00:34:44] Just the awareness that you can still.

[00:34:47] Hey, you're still in there.

[00:34:48] Yeah.

[00:34:48] And like, you're just going to keep on, like I said before, you know, like if you're going to go into poker, you just need to know you're going to play bad.

[00:34:54] You're going to get bad beats.

[00:34:55] You're going to have bad situations.

[00:34:57] And like a big, big, big portion of poker is just like how much you can let that not affect you and just like keep on doing.

[00:35:04] What's that Rocky line, right?

[00:35:05] It's like not about how hard you can hit, but like how hard you can get hit.

[00:35:09] And I'm sure you're going to have a do.

[00:35:10] Yeah.

[00:35:11] Like there is so much about that in poker that you don't want to compound your mistakes.

[00:35:16] So when I said it's over, what I meant is like that moment is over.

[00:35:19] It's gone.

[00:35:19] Yeah.

[00:35:20] Like I just kept on compounding my mistakes by just saying an extra hour and buying it again and buying it again, you know, like expecting mistakes at that point into like either believe or like, you know, be better in a breath.

[00:35:31] So I think that it's, it can be overwhelming.

[00:35:33] And what I do like about what you described about your play was that you realize you couldn't focus on all of these things that you are.

[00:35:39] And you needed to focus on a limited number of things because you're starting out.

[00:35:44] Otherwise, it's incredibly overwhelming and stressful.

[00:35:47] So you had the right conclusion, but you still just need to keep working at it.

[00:35:52] And it's sounded like you have fun.

[00:35:54] You have so much fun.

[00:35:56] I can both.

[00:35:56] So I just want to do this again.

[00:35:59] But it made me also think about how there was such a distinction between my mind and my body, right?

[00:36:05] Like the way I was just feeling that I had to consciously go, okay, I need to, I need to slow things down.

[00:36:12] I need to figure out my breathing.

[00:36:13] I need to figure out how to lower my heart rate.

[00:36:15] That's just so reps.

[00:36:16] So again, you know, that's just like repetition.

[00:36:18] Just like play for 30 hours or live poker more from this.

[00:36:21] And like a bunch of those will just like be out the window to you.

[00:36:24] Just like Matt Schrum, like you won't be focused on like your heart won't double every kind of sit down.

[00:36:28] You know, you're supposed to be like, I'm, I'm, I belong here.

[00:36:30] I've been here before and I'm back.

[00:36:31] Let's go.

[00:36:32] You know, like, I think that's just how it will feel.

[00:36:34] And a lot of them nerves is a good thing.

[00:36:36] Like I know that in my very first international chess trip, I really felt like I was going to throw up before the game.

[00:36:41] I was so nervous.

[00:36:42] I was playing against a, a local from the Amazon, Brazil.

[00:36:47] And, um, she had like all this journalism, journalists and fans around her.

[00:36:52] And, um, I just, uh, really felt like I knew belong there and I didn't want to be there.

[00:36:57] And then when the game started, um, everything clicked.

[00:36:59] Right.

[00:36:59] And I clicked and passed it.

[00:37:01] So it's like the, I, it taught me, and this has been with me ever since.

[00:37:05] And it happened before I did, um, a Ted talk that I was also felt incredibly nervous, wanted to, to run out.

[00:37:13] And I, and I, and I get really great.

[00:37:15] Yeah.

[00:37:15] And so it's always stuck with me that when I have those butterflies, you know, actually, that could be embrace it because it means that you care.

[00:37:22] And it means that you like, um, are rising to the pressure of the occasion.

[00:37:27] Absolutely.

[00:37:28] So instead of saying, what is this?

[00:37:29] This is terrible.

[00:37:30] Say like, good, I, I, I'm, I'm meant to do this.

[00:37:33] Well, speaking of meant to do this, you, you talked on imposter syndrome a little earlier.

[00:37:38] When I was the chip leader and I looked around at all these people that would calm and like, they had their stuff together and they were just doing their thing.

[00:37:46] I'm just like, holy shit, I don't belong here.

[00:37:48] So I'm like, I swear to me, you're going to hear a situation, if you were tired, then you will never have that feeling.

[00:37:53] But that's the part where I was like, okay, I need to now I'm just completely in my head.

[00:37:57] Yeah.

[00:37:58] Right.

[00:37:58] Like forget my body and my heart rate.

[00:38:00] I'm just some puppy on my head linking.

[00:38:01] Like, I don't, I should, I don't know how this happened.

[00:38:03] I don't know if like, maybe I'm just really good at lying to people, but this is not supposed to be happening.

[00:38:10] It is though, but it goes to the stable poker.

[00:38:13] Poker is so much.

[00:38:14] That's why poker is such a cool game because you can sit down.

[00:38:17] We pick week today.

[00:38:18] We can add three people to this table, you know, and like, we can play a crash game for the first time.

[00:38:22] And these three people that sit down can have never played before.

[00:38:25] And they can be the three biggest winners after an eight hour crash session.

[00:38:28] No problem.

[00:38:29] And that's like, even way less variance on that tournament.

[00:38:32] But I would say that could totally happen.

[00:38:34] You know, like there's so much rings in poker.

[00:38:36] And that's why it's a beautiful game.

[00:38:38] Because like amateur players can be the crap out of elite players on any given day, you know, and also obviously the other way.

[00:38:45] But, you know, anybody can win.

[00:38:47] And that's why it's so cool.

[00:38:48] You know, you don't have to be elite.

[00:38:49] And I don't want to take this away from here because I want you to be happy when you're chip leader in a tournament.

[00:38:54] But it's not that big a deal either to be like chip leader at your table when there's like 500 people in the tournament.

[00:39:00] You you're so far from anything that actually matters.

[00:39:03] So you should enjoy that moment because it's going to be fleeting.

[00:39:08] Like your story is a very common one.

[00:39:11] I had all the chips on my table and then I was out an hour later.

[00:39:14] So not to take away from that good feeling because have that good feeling, but also like it's not imposter syndrome because like you didn't really accomplish anything yet.

[00:39:23] Right. But that's actually like there's a really valid underlying point there because it's also a reminder of, you know, when you're having success in your life overall, you're not as high as you think you are.

[00:39:33] You're never as low as you think you are.

[00:39:35] You're always somewhere in the middle for sure.

[00:39:39] So I want to know.

[00:39:40] I got one question for each of you here.

[00:39:42] The same question.

[00:39:43] When you first started out in your careers, what's one piece of advice that you needed, but were never given something, you know, today that you could have used when you started?

[00:39:59] And it doesn't just have to be specifically poker related.

[00:40:03] I'll go.

[00:40:04] So you guys give you guys a second to think about what you want to say.

[00:40:08] Mine is that like people want to say poker is a zero sum game, which it is, but that's like in any given game.

[00:40:16] In the overall sense, whether it's poker, whether it's comedy, success isn't finite.

[00:40:20] There's plenty of it out there for everyone.

[00:40:23] And you don't have to get bogged down and upset at other people's success, whether you think they deserve it or not, because there's still more opportunities for you.

[00:40:32] They're virtually limitless.

[00:40:34] It feels scarce because it is a game of scarcity and goods and services and money feel scarce.

[00:40:41] But there are, in my opinion, there's always another poker tournament.

[00:40:45] There's always another comedy show.

[00:40:47] There's always another sitcom writing deal, whatever it is.

[00:40:52] So seeing those other people should inspire you and you can be happy for them.

[00:40:56] You don't have to let it upset you.

[00:40:58] And it's very difficult in poker and in comedy when you see people that you think might be undeserving, getting opportunities that you would think you should have booking the wins.

[00:41:08] That should have been me up there.

[00:41:09] And it's okay to be like, I deserve that too.

[00:41:12] But there's more.

[00:41:13] There's more out there.

[00:41:14] So you don't have to worry about that opportunity is gone.

[00:41:16] They're infinite.

[00:41:17] Well, I'll give you one that's very emotional and one that's a bit more analytical.

[00:41:23] The emotional one is hold on to what it is that you love about the game.

[00:41:26] So often we focus on our weaknesses.

[00:41:29] Like you're bad at end games in chess, but you're really good at a cat.

[00:41:34] And so you let's work on your end games for the next deal.

[00:41:37] But then it's like, wait a second.

[00:41:38] The thing that I loved about chess is no longer what I'm working on.

[00:41:42] And that can make you lose your passion and your confidence.

[00:41:45] And so, yes, work on your end games, but make time to look at those like those chess attacks, those question checkmates.

[00:41:53] Same thing in poker.

[00:41:54] You have a weakness and you have a strength.

[00:41:57] Really work on them simultaneously.

[00:41:59] And then and so because I think that's really important for having your like North Star, your your passion, what you love that can keep you going through the hard times.

[00:42:09] And then one thing that I think is often overlooked, we talk so much about picking ourselves up from failure and keep going.

[00:42:17] And I think it's really important.

[00:42:18] But I also think that it's under study that under focus.

[00:42:23] I think when you're successful, you know, ride with it, you know, take every opportunity, you know, and enjoy yourself and and keep going.

[00:42:31] Because sometimes I think when we're successful, we stop ourselves, we celebrate and we kind of like pull back.

[00:42:37] But that's actually where you have that kind of halo effect where you can, you know, you can network, you can get a lot of extra opportunities.

[00:42:45] And so seize those because it's not always going to be sunny days.

[00:42:48] Oh, my, it's very basic and kind of advice I did have.

[00:42:51] But I'm trying to think of ways of you just didn't listen.

[00:42:53] No, no, no, no, no, I didn't listen.

[00:42:55] I mean, I feel like a lot of the obviously I've been very lucky, but partial or part of the reason I've had success is because I had some like good mentors early on that just like, you know, promise some big things and basically, you know, grind, like I said before, and thank role management.

[00:43:10] So, you know, play a lot and don't go broke. That's not like my kind of one. It's like, it's like very basic, but like, there's obviously going to be a whole bunch of things within those, you know, like, bankroll management, like move up and down state as like your bankroll fluctuates, you know, like, make sure you have money set aside so that you don't go broke, like kind of thing.

[00:43:29] And just play a lot of poker, you know, whether you're coming from a job, whether you're coming from school, university, whatever, you can always find more time to grind and like to beat it in there and battle, you know, so I would just say play as much as you possibly can.

[00:43:44] And don't go broke. And if you are still enjoying yourself after some time, you should have more money and you should be better at poker.

[00:43:51] I love that. Thank you so much. Good luck in the tournaments that you're playing in. Good luck on the commentating on the tournaments. I hope you get the place in poker, hence.

[00:44:01] And this was amazing. I think we should do it again.

[00:44:04] Yeah, you should, you should do more golfers. Let's see you at the next stop.

[00:44:07] At the next stop.

[00:44:08] Thank you so much, everybody.