Joze Piranian: The Secret To Overcoming Fear, Anxiety & Depression | Ep.91 - Gent's Talk

[00:00:00] Growing up, I was absolutely despised having a stutter and caused a lot of self-consciousness,

[00:00:11] a lot of social anxiety and to some extent depression as well.

[00:00:20] As I felt super frustrated by the fact that I had to be different all the time.

[00:00:50] You didn't get your opportunity to practice your technique which is speaking to a hundred people.

[00:01:01] Maybe we start there.

[00:01:04] Sure, so the way that I work on my stutter is by using a breathing technique

[00:01:18] which requires taking a deep breath every few words.

[00:01:25] And then step two is to practice the technique by asking a hundred strangers for directions.

[00:01:41] And it's in psychology that would refer to it as descents.

[00:01:51] Desents, desensitization or even exposure therapy which essentially consists of voluntarily putting yourself in the situation.

[00:02:20] It's a situation you find scary or uncomfortable again and again and again.

[00:02:31] That's an interesting experiment.

[00:02:34] I'm thinking about myself talking to a hundred strangers and their times were speaking to a complete stranger is worrisome.

[00:02:42] I can't imagine it's any easier.

[00:02:45] In fact, I can imagine it probably feels harder when you know you're battling a speech impediment.

[00:02:52] Was this something that you were born with?

[00:02:56] I don't know what the right word is as you got older, it developed like what's the story there?

[00:03:00] Yeah, so it is not a hobby that I took up recently.

[00:03:10] It's something I've always had.

[00:03:16] My mom tells me that at two years of age or maybe two and a half she had already noticed some disfluency in my speaking.

[00:03:39] I often joke that my mom is still waiting for me to finish saying my first word.

[00:03:52] So I've always had it but I would say that my relationship with it has changed drastically over the years.

[00:04:05] How does something like that happen?

[00:04:09] How does a speech or a stutter develop?

[00:04:13] Is it something that you're born with?

[00:04:15] Is it something that happens in the brain?

[00:04:18] I admittedly don't know very much about the process behind it.

[00:04:25] Often times is a side effect of handsomeness.

[00:04:41] So it has, I would say, it's a combination of factors.

[00:04:49] There is a...

[00:04:53] There are genetic and also a neuronal causes for having a stutter.

[00:05:09] It's an issue that happens in the area of the brain that handles speaking.

[00:05:22] I believe that based on the emotions you are experiencing in the moment,

[00:05:32] you can also disrupt the...

[00:05:38] already fragile speaking process even more.

[00:05:44] But it is not caused by emotions or by anxiety or by stress.

[00:05:52] Those can make it more pronounced but they're not the cause or the origin.

[00:06:05] Because if they were, then you'd probably hear stuttering in most people.

[00:06:18] So as you were speaking just now, there was a moment where you put together maybe five or six words consecutively with no issue.

[00:06:26] And then the stutter came back. What happens there?

[00:06:30] What happens where you're able to speak with less difficulty and then the stutter kicks in.

[00:06:42] And I noticed the breathing technique that I want to ask you about in a moment.

[00:06:46] But what happens there?

[00:06:48] The alcohol kicked in.

[00:06:56] I'll say for the sick of the viewer that this is not alcohol.

[00:07:06] It says coffee on the side.

[00:07:10] I'm having an amazing...

[00:07:14] I'm having an amazing roibus tea latte from South Africa with a hot milk.

[00:07:24] I don't even have coffee so this is how I get that fix of wanting a warm and comforting beverage.

[00:07:39] So it's a...

[00:07:45] that stuttering is indeed very variable.

[00:07:49] And I even have a joke about it in my stand-up.

[00:07:55] I say that stuttering is extremely paradoxical.

[00:08:01] Some words flow right out.

[00:08:05] Others get stuck as if I am using dial-up internet.

[00:08:11] And then when I say, I don't stutter at all.

[00:08:17] Really?

[00:08:19] Maybe we can get back to that topic of singing a bit later.

[00:08:29] But I would say there is inherent variability with a stutter.

[00:08:39] There are some words indeed that can flow a bit better.

[00:08:47] That's one thing too.

[00:08:49] As if I'm using my breathing technique correctly.

[00:08:53] I'll tend to have even more control.

[00:08:57] But if I stop using it for a few seconds,

[00:09:11] I'll definitely have a harder time.

[00:09:19] Are there certain words with letters or sounds that make the stutter more pronounced?

[00:09:29] Or it doesn't matter what the word is.

[00:09:33] It's just whatever you land on in that moment.

[00:09:37] I would say this answer has to do more with memories and with recent speaking experiences.

[00:09:47] If, for example, the last time I tried saying something,

[00:09:55] I got stuck on a specific word.

[00:09:59] It might influence my memory.

[00:10:01] And then next time I have to say that same word, there could be some extra stress or anxiety.

[00:10:11] So, ultimately I don't think it's as much about the sounds, the themselves, as much as it is.

[00:10:25] About memories.

[00:10:27] Now, except for if you speak Arabic,

[00:10:36] I find that in some languages the sounds can indeed be a bit more challenging.

[00:10:48] So, it can make a language as a whole feel a bit more challenging if you add a stutter into the mix.

[00:11:00] When you're thinking, is there a stutter?

[00:11:06] No. Do you ever get frustrated with the fact that when you're thinking very linearly

[00:11:18] and then when you're trying to speak at the rate that you're thinking, it's not coming out at the same speed?

[00:11:24] Like, is there a frustration in that builds in those moments?

[00:11:28] It's a good thing I meditate every morning.

[00:11:34] It definitely has taught me to be more present and in the moment.

[00:11:42] However, growing up I absolutely despised having a stutter and it caused a lot of self-consciousness,

[00:11:54] a lot of social anxiety and to some extent the depression as well,

[00:12:02] because I felt super frustrated by the fact that I had to be different all the time.

[00:12:14] And if you think about it, if you stutter the only time that you are not different is when you don't stutter.

[00:12:26] Or don't speak.

[00:12:28] So, my coping mechanism was indeed to stay quiet.

[00:12:44] How did you learn to overcome that?

[00:12:48] It took a few steps.

[00:12:52] The first step that I took which was very influential was learning this breathing technique

[00:13:04] to help me control it.

[00:13:07] I went to a course in the UK and I learned this technique.

[00:13:17] And after that though, it wasn't until years later that I was able to start actually using this technique openly.

[00:13:35] Because with a technique or without one, I was still going to sound different.

[00:13:45] It's just that the technique would allow me to sound different in a way that's more controlled or a bit more fluid.

[00:13:57] But if I was unwilling to openly be who I am, openly be different,

[00:14:11] I would still find ways to hide from people or to hide from speaking.

[00:14:21] So, I had to accept that you will sound different.

[00:14:31] And the exercise of talking to strangers played a role in decentralizing myself to people's reactions.

[00:14:49] Because ultimately, I was avoiding speaking to protect myself from what I considered to be negative reactions from other people.

[00:15:05] If I speak and I get stuck and someone laughs or someone makes a comment or someone walks away, these are situations that have happened a lot of times.

[00:15:25] And they, I believe, caused me to retreat more and more gradually.

[00:15:31] Now the combination of having learned that technique and then practicing by interacting with people.

[00:15:45] The third step was challenging myself to work on my fear of speaking through the most extreme form of speaking, which is public speaking.

[00:16:05] And I figured that if the obstacles seem radical to me at the time which it did, the solution had to be equally radical.

[00:16:25] And by starting to challenge myself through public speaking, I was able to change my relationship with this comfort and with fear.

[00:16:45] So, the first time you and I ever met was 2019.

[00:16:55] It was in February of that year.

[00:17:07] I felt that the yellow let's talk conference.

[00:17:17] I felt a level of discomfort for you.

[00:17:47] I felt that I was able to change myself through public speaking.

[00:18:07] I felt that I was able to change myself through public speaking.

[00:18:17] I felt that I was able to change myself through public speaking.

[00:18:47] Incredible.

[00:18:49] First of all, thank you for the kind words.

[00:18:57] I would say this is not how I expected my life to evolve or to unfold due to the least.

[00:19:11] In fact, I was hoping to create a life with as little speaking as humanly possible.

[00:19:23] I felt that in a way it feels like that quote by the to work for lozifer or really is which goes

[00:19:51] the impediment to action advances action.

[00:20:01] What stands in the way becomes the way.

[00:20:07] I find that often times whenever we deal with an obstacle it's a pretext to do something about it.

[00:20:27] And that something may never have happened in the absence of that obstacle in the first place.

[00:20:37] Of course, we always have to make a decision.

[00:20:45] And when we face a fear or discomfort or any kind of obstacle, ultimately the two possible options are to face it

[00:21:05] or to not face it.

[00:21:17] And the outcomes and the way our lives will look would obviously defer drastically based on which one of the two we end up choosing.

[00:21:37] What would you say to someone who is in a very similar position to where you were who was choosing to go the route of I'm just not going to speak.

[00:22:01] The word talking about people who start or who have speech impediments.

[00:22:13] Then of course the main takeaway from the journey that I have embarked on is that staying in a state of avoidance and silence leads to

[00:22:43] squandering all of our potential as human beings.

[00:22:55] Unless of course you are engaging in intentional silence like a meditation retreat then that's quite different.

[00:23:07] But if we are choosing avoidance or silence as a defense mechanism then we are squandering our potential in all areas of life.

[00:23:31] And the same can happen for people who don't have a starter and who are holding back in their own ways.

[00:23:51] This comfort and if I had to speak to either of those two cohorts I would really tell them three main things.

[00:24:10] The first is to own what makes them unique and remembering that it's okay to be different.

[00:24:21] I know it sounds a bit cheesy or cliche but it can be a very significant realization when it occurs to us that we no longer have to hide the parts.

[00:24:50] Parts of ourselves that had caused a lot of shame or insecurities.

[00:25:03] Every time I have done speaking engagements if I ever ask people in the room who here has ever felt like they were different.

[00:25:22] At one point in their lives you will see oftentimes the vast majority of people have their hand up.

[00:25:36] And once we can recognize that it's okay to be different.

[00:25:46] The second step is to use fear or discomfort as a compass that will guide us to where we need to go.

[00:26:03] I recall once I was attending this Q&A with the author Mark Manson.

[00:26:15] This was at a bookstore in downtown Toronto and there were hundreds of people at the event.

[00:26:28] He does a quick speech and then says, okay guys now I'll be opening it up to questions.

[00:26:37] As soon as he said that my heart starts to pound.

[00:26:45] And behind you at the time I had already done one or two.

[00:26:54] I had done one or two.

[00:27:00] So the text talks, I had already performed some stand up.

[00:27:09] So this was not the first time that I'd have to speak in front of people.

[00:27:22] And once he said those words however my heart started to pound.

[00:27:36] And in that moment I recall thinking if I feel this it means I have to ask him a question.

[00:27:53] So I put my hand up and it's in a sense it's about creating this new association.

[00:28:03] In the past fear could instantly have met no, don't do that thing.

[00:28:10] Compare with you and just staying put not doing anything.

[00:28:15] And what has changed for me is not the presence or absence of fear it's simply the relationship with that fear.

[00:28:24] On that day as soon as the fear hit me both physiologically and mentally I was like okay this is a clear indication or even an invitation that I have to do this thing.

[00:28:44] And the last step in my view is to do that thing that you fear not once, not twice, not thrice but again and again.

[00:28:59] It isn't an overnight process doesn't sound like a no, it sounds like years of work.

[00:29:14] It's years of having to say to slay that same dragon until it becomes really clear in our minds that fear and action don't have to be mutually ex-exclusive.

[00:29:44] Fear and action can co-exist.

[00:29:49] If we enter a situation where we find scary or uncomfortable with that mindset in mind, we no longer have to wait for that fear to disappear.

[00:30:16] Before we start to do the things that we know will take our lives to the next level.

[00:30:27] So when you talk about fear, a lot of people associate fear with the thing that prevents them from doing what they hope to achieve.

[00:30:41] And you talk about it almost as if it's this external thing that you've learned to dance with.

[00:30:52] Embracing it when you need to embrace it, not letting it grab a hold of you but also still taking lead almost like a dance partner.

[00:31:03] What's one thing or two things are as many things?

[00:31:07] But what's something that you learned in this journey with fear that you know now and if you can go back in time and tell a younger Jose, this is what you needed to do.

[00:31:21] What would it be?

[00:31:26] First of all, I really like the dance analogy.

[00:31:34] A special instance.

[00:31:36] I'm an awful dancer so I find that it's a cool metaphor.

[00:31:44] Good.

[00:31:45] I expect to see it in your next talk.

[00:31:51] So interestingly, I've been recently thinking about potential titles for a book.

[00:32:10] I am currently writing and one of the options that had come to mind was dance with fear.

[00:32:26] So you just reminded me of that.

[00:32:44] So really, if I could go...

[00:32:49] If I could talk to my old self.

[00:32:56] And I like using the expression all self more than I like to use younger self.

[00:33:14] Because I find that whenever someone refers to things they wish they could tell their...

[00:33:35] You younger self in a way it can insinuate that after a certain threshold, age wise, that change becomes unlikely or more difficult.

[00:33:56] And I like to think of our lives as the old self and the new self.

[00:34:09] Because no matter what someone's age might be, I do believe that we are all...

[00:34:18] A few mindsets and behaviors away from creating drastic change in our lives changes that today might seem farfetched or unlikely.

[00:34:37] The same way that the old Jose would have considered any of the recent milestones in my life as being absurdly impossible.

[00:34:56] So if I could talk to that person, I would tell him...

[00:35:06] First of all, enjoy your hair.

[00:35:13] Enjoy your glorious hair.

[00:35:16] And I would then say, look, having done hundreds of...

[00:35:23] I tend to have comedy and speaking engagements in English, Arabic, French and Spanish all around the world having done all of these.

[00:35:43] I can say with some degree of confidence that I have good news and bad news about fear.

[00:35:54] I know that most people like to start with the bad end on the good, so the bad news is that...

[00:36:07] Fear never goes away. No, it doesn't. No. It just comes in different forms.

[00:36:14] And the good news, however, is that fear never goes away.

[00:36:22] If we know this, if we know this to be true, we prove to ourselves that...

[00:36:38] Post-poning action is futile because that sense of fear or dread or discomfort that we associate with that action might always emerge in those moments.

[00:37:01] So if we know that the fear might never go away, we no longer have to wait for that Hollywood moment.

[00:37:20] And that's a moment that you see in a lot of movies where initially the protagonist is having a very difficult time.

[00:37:34] Everything goes wrong. And it keeps on getting worse. He did not get the promotion at work or she got rejected or whatever the first scenes are.

[00:37:58] And then at some point in the movie, the character has their big aha moment. It's a breakthrough.

[00:38:12] And something just clicks. That person then goes outside, it is raining of course.

[00:38:26] And they go running. Of course, yeah, you need to rain always.

[00:38:33] And they run with dramatic music in the background and Katy Perry's fireworks shining in the sky.

[00:38:51] That is not how transformation happened in my own journey.

[00:39:00] It occurred through what I call millions of micro moments of bravery.

[00:39:11] And these are moments during which I repeatedly did what I least wanted to do again and again and again.

[00:39:22] Micro moments of bravery. That's a very interesting concept.

[00:39:29] I think if we think back enough, we can find little moments, little micro moments of bravery in our own lives.

[00:39:38] And if we strung them together enough, we can see our progression and our growth.

[00:39:47] How do you, you said you meditate? How do you overcome the self doubt today?

[00:39:58] Because everything you said to me sounds incredible. It sounds positive. It sounds focused. It sounds cerebral.

[00:40:08] But I can almost guarantee there are days you wake up and you go. No, don't email me, don't text me, don't call me, I'm not doing it. I'm done.

[00:40:22] That's a great question because I do think that when someone is a motivational speaker, there can be indeed the expectation that this person might be inherently cheerful all the time and su-suit and su-suit.

[00:40:49] And super positive and peppy and so on.

[00:40:58] I would say one of the biggest takeaways I've had in the past six or so years is the importance of continuously honing my mental wellness in per-

[00:41:19] parallel to the trajectory of overcoming fears and doing things I find terrifying.

[00:41:28] I do think that if we only focus on X posing ourselves to these terrifying situations, it will not be a sustainable path.

[00:41:45] And it's been so key for me to come up with a list of habits that I know I need to do every single day.

[00:41:59] And whenever I'm having a bad day or a few bad days in a row, I look at my habit to tracker on my phone and lo and behold I have not been doing those things.

[00:42:27] And if I can simply get myself to reluctantly drag myself to do those things, everything on the list.

[00:42:39] Even if it takes me the whole day, but just to make sure that I'm doing my meditation.

[00:42:49] I am doing some form of exercise. I am going for a walk, a long walk.

[00:42:58] I am having a call with the family member or a friend, even if it's a quick check-in.

[00:43:12] I am reading something positive.

[00:43:18] I have more recently been doing, I've been doing more called exposure.

[00:43:29] Shout out to Andrew Hebrman.

[00:43:37] So I feel like if I can do all those things, I'd be setting myself up for success and for mental wellness.

[00:44:01] Now, on the days as you were asking, on the days when I don't feel like doing things, I find uncomfortable or challenging.

[00:44:23] In addition to me dragging myself to complete this list of habits, I also find that there are a few mindset shifts I need to often remind myself of.

[00:44:46] The first one is remembering the process of desensitization.

[00:44:58] The more we expose ourselves to that discomfort or fear, the more manageable it becomes.

[00:45:16] Now, we will still experience it, but there is a reward in that we do eventually adapt a bit.

[00:45:35] In the sense that our brains know that we have been in this situation before, we have survived it.

[00:45:49] So that's one, two.

[00:45:52] The fact is to contextualize that one moment within the fact that we are currently on a swirling piece of rock

[00:46:21] in the middle of the universe.

[00:46:24] And while that one moment may seem personally meaningful, in the grand scheme of things, it's quite insignificant.

[00:46:42] That's always a good reminder, realizing that you're just suspecting dust.

[00:46:49] I often do that before I'm about to go up on stage at the comedy club, because even though I have done so many sets, before I'm about to go up,

[00:47:03] I look at the audience and at the stage, I look again at the audience at the stage.

[00:47:11] And I think I'm about to go up there.

[00:47:16] I then locate the exit sign.

[00:47:21] And in those moments, I do like to tell myself, you are on this rock in the middle of the universe.

[00:47:35] And I find that adding this cosmic absurdity to the moment, it adds more of a comical dynamic to the moment.

[00:47:59] And then lastly, it will be remembering why I want to do this thing in the first place.

[00:48:11] Because if we can withstand the first 5, 10, 15 seconds of that fear or discomfort, that might end up leading to potentially amazing outcomes and opportunities that would not have happened,

[00:48:38] had we only focused on that short-term pain or that short-term fear or discomfort?

[00:48:48] I got to ask you one more question.

[00:48:51] We talked about it a little bit earlier, you said to come back to it.

[00:48:55] What's the story there?

[00:48:59] Is there no starter when you sing?

[00:49:05] Have you ever heard for instance a British singer singing a song without their accent?

[00:49:31] Yeah.

[00:49:35] So singing and speaking appear to occur in...

[00:49:47] I mean, they appear to involve the different areas of the brain.

[00:49:58] And whenever I sing, indeed I don't stutter at all.

[00:50:06] And that's common among people who don't stutter.

[00:50:10] In fact, I even have a joke about it in my stand-up act.

[00:50:18] Would you like to hear the joke?

[00:50:22] Absolutely.

[00:50:24] There goes...

[00:50:34] Whenever I mention that, I can sing without any stuttering.

[00:50:53] I'll have someone come up to me after a show.

[00:50:59] And they're like, hey, instead of speaking, why don't you always sing?

[00:51:09] I say because I don't want to look deranged.

[00:51:16] I know they think I would save so much time, but have you ever seen a musical?

[00:51:28] Can you imagine asking me, hey, how was your weekend?

[00:51:36] And I say, thank you for asking my friend.

[00:51:42] My weekend was nothing but grand.

[00:51:48] Wow!

[00:51:50] And you have good vocals too.

[00:51:54] Thank you.

[00:51:56] The next time there's one of those shows like America's Got Talent, I think you should definitely audition.

[00:52:04] Look into it.

[00:52:06] You...

[00:52:10] You...

[00:52:12] They have planted a seed, we'll see.

[00:52:16] I think you should.

[00:52:18] I think you're a multi-talented, incredibly inspiring individual.

[00:52:22] And I thank you for coming on and having this conversation with me.

[00:52:26] I learned a lot.

[00:52:28] And I hope that whoever is listening to this or watching this, for those who have an internal stutter,

[00:52:40] that overcoming that fear and saying what's on your mind or speaking your truth is super important.

[00:52:47] I hope that that's what you take away from this conversation.

[00:52:50] That have an external stutter.

[00:52:54] I hope you use Jose here as a shining example of how you can overcome that and use it to your advantage, to overcome the fear rather.

[00:53:04] And I just sincerely also hope that anyone that's listening or watching this who comes across a person that has a stutter that they practice a little patience and kindness.

[00:53:16] And that I was thinking as you were talking about speaking to 100 strangers, that, you know, I like to believe that there is good in humanity.

[00:53:25] But I also know that there are some jerks out there and that not everybody would be patient or kind or willing to engage.

[00:53:32] And I'm rooting for you.

[00:53:34] I hope you continue to do these stand-ups.

[00:53:36] I hope you continue to do the shows, congrats on the book.

[00:53:40] I don't know what that process is like, but I imagine it's very, very time consuming.

[00:53:46] And yeah, I hope I can see you on reality TV singing.

[00:53:50] Well, thankfully, I don't stutter when I write.

[00:53:55] So that has helped.

[00:54:00] It has helped the book writing process.

[00:54:05] Although my word count would have been much lower if I could incorporate some actual stuttering in the book itself.

[00:54:29] Thank you for having me on.

[00:54:33] And one thing I'll add to conclude, when you were talking about patience, you just reminded me of a moment I had at a stand-up comedy show where I said that

[00:54:58] I started in six different languages, which means I want to miss you and to test people's patience internationally.

[00:55:16] But in that moment, I got stuck on the word patience.

[00:55:22] And then this woman in the room says the word patience for me.

[00:55:33] And I'm like, if there was one word that you should have let me say it's patience.

[00:55:46] Oh, amazing.

[00:55:47] Jose, thank you so much.

[00:55:50] And I'll do this again sometime.

[00:55:52] Yeah, that was great.

[00:55:53] Absolutely.

[00:55:54] Thank you so much.

[00:55:55] Thank you so much for tuning in everybody.