How The NBA Union Supports Mental Health For Athletes: Tamika Tremaglio | Ep.119 - Gent's Talk

[00:00:00] I'm wondering from where you were sitting whether you saw athletes struggle with depression, anxiety.

[00:00:06] Oh absolutely, we don't know what anyone is going through.

[00:00:11] Tamika Tremaglio is a successful lawyer, former managing principal for Deloitte's Greater Washington Practice.

[00:00:17] And was the former executive director of the NBA Players Association overseeing the renegotiation of the current collective bargaining agreement.

[00:00:27] Talking about depression and being in this dark place, it's not something that everybody feels comfortable with.

[00:00:34] What they do every single day is really, really hard.

[00:00:39] To say I'm not okay, the fact that it was seen as a weakness as opposed to a strength, was really unfortunate.

[00:00:47] People weren't recognizing our players for all that they bring.

[00:00:50] And we tie our masculinity around the concept of our being the strong, silent type and somehow that makes us more masculine, more alpha than the next.

[00:00:59] What can be done to support athletes?

[00:01:25] Well Tamika I am so excited that we're finally getting to have this conversation.

[00:01:29] Thank you.

[00:01:30] We've talked about this for a little bit and we were introduced to one another through Karen.

[00:01:36] Thank you, Karen.

[00:01:38] Thank you, Karen.

[00:01:38] Um, and immediately I knew this was a conversation that I wanted to have with you because you've done such incredible, incredible work.

[00:01:49] Um, and I really want to dive into that work because obviously we do a lot of conversations here around mental health.

[00:01:58] And you at some point were the executive director of the NBA players association.

[00:02:05] That's not a small project to take on.

[00:02:08] That's not a, yeah, I'll just do this in my free time.

[00:02:10] That's a whole life consuming endeavor that you took on.

[00:02:14] Um, but in addition to that, you led the Washington branch if I'm using the right terminology for Deloitte, which is one of the biggest branches in North America.

[00:02:24] Welcome to Jen's talk.

[00:02:26] Thank you very much.

[00:02:27] And it is such an honor to be here.

[00:02:29] So thank you.

[00:02:29] Thank you for taking the time.

[00:02:31] No, this is great.

[00:02:32] Um, so why don't we start with understanding firstly, how you got to the, I want to, I want

[00:02:38] to start with the NBA players association.

[00:02:41] Um, when did that happen?

[00:02:44] When did you join them?

[00:02:45] What was the circumstance there?

[00:02:47] And then let's maybe talk a little bit about the work that you were doing while you were the executive director.

[00:02:52] Sure.

[00:02:52] Absolutely.

[00:02:53] So thank you first and you are right.

[00:02:55] It is not a little job.

[00:02:57] In fact, it was such a privilege to actually be able to serve in that role.

[00:03:00] So I started there in January of 2022.

[00:03:03] And it was actually after retiring from Deloitte, as you mentioned, as the managing partner in our greater Washington office, which is actually our greatest, our largest office in the country.

[00:03:13] So we had about 17,000 professionals and 23 offices.

[00:03:18] And I had been working in the sports industry since 2009.

[00:03:22] So quite some time.

[00:03:23] And in fact, the MBPA had been a client of mine since 2010, 2011 time period.

[00:03:29] Um, and so once this opportunity presented itself, it was a phenomenal opportunity one because they had about 18 months ahead of them before they had to complete the collective bargaining agreement.

[00:03:39] I had just done that in 2020 with the women under the leadership of Terry Jackson.

[00:03:44] So I'd had that experience.

[00:03:46] Obviously, it had the experience within the PA for the last 10 years.

[00:03:50] So it actually ended up being a smooth transition and able to come in right away and get going.

[00:03:56] Um, as you mentioned, it is the union that represents the players.

[00:04:00] Unbeknownst to most people, it is not the NBA that is the players.

[00:04:04] It is really the union that is the players that make up the 450 or so, and now a little more that make up the players.

[00:04:11] And so our job was really to look at sort of what business opportunities there were for players, to look at what the future of basketball was going to look like, and then safety and wellness to be the utmost priority.

[00:04:23] Because what they were doing on the court was just as critical as what they were doing off the court as well.

[00:04:28] Is there a reason when you entered into that role, wellness became such a hot topic conversation piece?

[00:04:37] Yeah.

[00:04:37] So for a lot of reasons.

[00:04:39] So, you know, beginning with my time at Deloitte.

[00:04:42] So right around 2017, when I was named as the managing partner in Greater Washington, it was a really polarizing time in Greater Washington.

[00:04:50] And I recognize that people were just not being kind and understanding each other.

[00:04:55] And so for me, it was critically important that I was leading a culture of kindness.

[00:05:01] So we started the business of kindness in Greater Washington for Deloitte.

[00:05:06] And the whole theory behind it was that people were you don't know where people are and you don't know what you're going to meet people at what position in their life, what's happened that day, what happened in the morning, those types of things.

[00:05:18] And so I thought, we have 17,000 people here.

[00:05:22] And one of our buildings, we had over 3,000 people.

[00:05:25] And I'd get in the elevator and people weren't looking at each other or talking to each other.

[00:05:29] And I thought, this is our building.

[00:05:31] We should be greeting each other.

[00:05:32] We should be saying hello.

[00:05:33] But for whatever reason, people get in the elevator.

[00:05:35] They take out their cell phones.

[00:05:37] They try to avoid making eye contact because they want to avoid that moment.

[00:05:40] But it might be the only time someone is actually engaged in an intimate conversation that day.

[00:05:48] Or a hello may be just what someone needs.

[00:05:50] So I really thought it was so important to bring around this culture of kindness, not only for mental health but our overall wellness and to bring in a more tight-knit community.

[00:06:00] And that that could sort of relay into our clients and our relationships with clients.

[00:06:04] Unbeknownst to me, Greater Washington would take on the whole business of kindness.

[00:06:09] And so I was on a panel one day with a woman by the name of Cynthia Germanotta, who is Lady Gaga's mother.

[00:06:14] And she was talking about the business of kindness and in particular being kind and mental health and being brave and talking about mental health.

[00:06:22] And really, like you say, you sort of drank the Kool-Aid or as maybe Cynthia would say.

[00:06:26] I had tea with Cynthia.

[00:06:28] And I understood how critically important it was.

[00:06:31] I learned so many lessons from them.

[00:06:33] And as a result, and as a result of doing that in Greater Washington and being so involved in it for such a period of time, and then later being on Lady Gaga's board, Born This Way Foundation, it became part of who I was.

[00:06:46] And it became integral to the things that I was doing as well.

[00:06:49] And so when I came to the MBPA, it just became a natural progression.

[00:06:54] Because quite frankly, what I did see is that people weren't recognizing our players for all that they bring.

[00:07:00] You know, on many occasions, I saw fans engage with our players in a way that quite honestly was not kind.

[00:07:08] Yeah.

[00:07:08] And I thought it's because they're not relating to them as real players.

[00:07:11] You know, perhaps they're playing their character on 2K and they're not thinking about, you know, this is a person who's a father, you know, who is, you know, a spouse, etc.

[00:07:20] And they have feelings and emotions.

[00:07:23] And so it was so important to me to make sure that I was bringing the whole person to the game.

[00:07:29] And so we sort of launched this campaign around what's your and.

[00:07:33] And it was about what's the and with players.

[00:07:36] They are basketball players, but they are X and Y and Z.

[00:07:41] And so the goal behind that was really so that our fans could get them know them in a different way and to respect them in a different way.

[00:07:48] I think athletes I've had on a few athletes who've talked about the challenges of the public perception of them.

[00:07:56] They see to your point, the glamour, they see the dollars, they see the accolades, the success, the television appearances, the brand deals, they see all of that.

[00:08:06] And they think that because of that, they should fans feel a sense of I'm now allowed to criticize you.

[00:08:15] But where they criticize oftentimes goes into personal, not even anything to do with the play on the court, for example.

[00:08:23] And I've had conversations with athletes talk about how that's really affected them.

[00:08:28] They've had to delete their social media.

[00:08:30] They've had to speak to counselors and therapists because it's really affected them.

[00:08:34] And I just thought for a moment in any job I've had, if everybody who saw the work I did was so openly comfortable criticizing me the way some fans do.

[00:08:47] I don't know that I'd be able to handle that, regardless of pay and all of that, all that stuff that comes with it.

[00:08:54] So I'm wondering when you introduced this concept into the NBA Players Association, what was the reception like?

[00:09:03] Because as athletes, they're generally, for the most part, resistant to talking about mental health, wellness.

[00:09:10] I mean, when I first heard DeMar DeRozan talk about it, and he just released a book and he was in Toronto talking about it, I was shocked.

[00:09:18] And then I saw Kevin Love have a similar conversation as a result, and it just took the one.

[00:09:23] But it seems like there's a yearning for it, but a resistance to it in some places.

[00:09:28] What was your experience in that realm?

[00:09:32] Yeah, so for certain, the players wanted to be in a position to talk about it.

[00:09:37] And it was really under the leadership of CJ McCollum and the executive committee that they wanted to make sure that we were talking about it, that we were engaging in it.

[00:09:46] It was clear to them that if you could see it, you could be it.

[00:09:48] And if they showed up in a certain way where they talked about mental health, where they talked about therapy, then people could show up in that way as well.

[00:09:55] And so while I'd love to take credit for it, the reality is it was something that was really ingrained with them.

[00:10:01] But as you mentioned, it's not something that everybody feels comfortable with.

[00:10:06] And quite frankly, it has been a little bit of a journey.

[00:10:09] So as we had our first global health symposium last year, last September, around the same time, and we were focused on mental health, I started the conversation with a letter from Jerry West.

[00:10:20] And so as many people know, the late Jerry West was the logo man on the NBA.

[00:10:25] And he had written a book about his challenges growing up in West Virginia and his abusive father and how he suffered from depression.

[00:10:32] So he began that dialogue, which really was critical to others feeling like we can have this conversation too.

[00:10:40] And so then, of course, as you already mentioned, DeMar, talking about it and talking about depression and being in this dark place, it makes other people feel comfortable with it.

[00:10:49] And when they are removed in any way from doing basketball, so if there's an injury, if there's a period of uncertainty, they're going to be traded.

[00:10:59] All of these things that really go to their very existence, you know, most of us are so tied up in what we do every day that we forget, you know, the human side of all of that.

[00:11:11] The challenge for them too is that many of them grew up in a culture very similar to mine that if there was a problem, you need to go to church.

[00:11:17] That will fix it.

[00:11:19] There's no reason for a man to actually sit down with a therapist, especially an alpha male to sit down with a therapist.

[00:11:26] And so that wasn't something that was intuitive, that was part of their culture for many of them.

[00:11:32] And so the fact that it was seen as a weakness as opposed to a strength was really unfortunate.

[00:11:38] And many of the leaders within the MBPA, our players, wanted to make sure that they could tell that story so that other people wouldn't find themselves in this dark place.

[00:11:49] And so during this health symposium, this gentleman, his name was Chris McDonald, amazing guy that was involved with Broadway.

[00:11:56] He actually brought in these actors and they had read the stories of many of our players.

[00:12:02] So John Walls and DeMar DeRozan and Kevin Love and others.

[00:12:06] And they were talking about those dark nights.

[00:12:08] They were talking about, you know, not wanting to be there but for their children or their mother or, you know, these tragic things that had happened in their lives.

[00:12:16] And I think it really resonated with people because, one, it's not something that they even thought of.

[00:12:22] For some reason in our country, if you are wealthy and you're a star, everything is right with the world.

[00:12:30] When the reality is it's a tremendous amount of pressure.

[00:12:34] For many of them, they could be the only ones in their family.

[00:12:40] So they are taking on the weight of the world.

[00:12:43] And when someone in the crowd is criticizing them, when someone is putting things on social media and thinking of them of less than a person with feelings that can actually be hurt by the things that are being said,

[00:12:56] that's when it's really difficult for them.

[00:12:59] And so for them to tell that story and to say it's okay to get therapy, to say that it's okay to say I'm not okay, to say that I need help,

[00:13:09] it really is making the step in the right direction because they are examples for so many of our men.

[00:13:15] And so to have someone that you look up to and admire every day to tell you that they went to therapy today just like they went to a dentist appointment or to get their coffee at Starbucks,

[00:13:27] that normalizes it.

[00:13:28] And that's what we need is for more individuals to normalize the fact that it's okay to not be okay.

[00:13:35] I love that.

[00:13:37] I'm wondering, you know, we talk about the DeRozans, the Kevin Love, the CJ McCollum.

[00:13:44] It was only at a certain point in their career where they felt comfortable having these conversations.

[00:13:49] And even then it took courage to have that conversation.

[00:13:52] But for all intents and purposes, they were fairly established as professional basketball players capable of handling themselves on the court, signed deals, etc.

[00:14:04] There could be young NBA players who are looking at that and going, I still haven't signed my big deal.

[00:14:13] I'm still trying to make a name for myself.

[00:14:15] I worry about if I talk about mental health challenges or if I talk about the pressures of being the only one in the family who now has to support the family,

[00:14:26] that this could potentially hurt me in contract conversations.

[00:14:29] And it's something that I've seen, you know, come up as a particular point across all major sports where athletes refrain from these conversations and agents discourage these conversations because it could hurt them in contract conversations.

[00:14:46] What would you say to that?

[00:14:48] I'd say it's really unfortunate because the reality is you are bringing your whole self every single day.

[00:14:56] And our athletes in particular, our professional athletes, are bringing their whole selves, whether it's to the court or to the field.

[00:15:02] And so to not acknowledge that you want the opportunity to express yourself, to not acknowledge that, you know, you actually may like to have this conversation.

[00:15:12] Perhaps sometimes it's about sort of getting those things out there.

[00:15:16] It doesn't necessarily mean that there is a problem, but that you recognize that it's good to engage in conversations like that, that that makes you a better human being, that it makes you recognize things.

[00:15:27] You know, one of my coaches told me a long time ago that women get sad and men get mad.

[00:15:33] And so oftentimes it shows up as being really angry, right?

[00:15:38] And you're trying to figure out what's happening.

[00:15:39] That's when you should pause and sort of figure those things out and take time to reflect upon it.

[00:15:45] And quite honestly, you are correct that I'm not suggesting that anybody disclose their darkest, deepest secrets to everyone.

[00:15:53] What I am saying, though, is that when you have decided that you need help or you want to talk about things, that you should express yourself.

[00:16:01] And quite frankly, when you're being interviewed for teams or being interviewed for anything of significance, you should talk about the whole self, includes your mental health as well.

[00:16:10] Because if your leg were broken, you would have no problem telling someone that your leg was broken or that you sprained an ankle because you couldn't, you know, walk into an interview.

[00:16:20] It's okay to not be okay.

[00:16:22] It's okay.

[00:16:22] We fix those things and we move on and we are better people for it.

[00:16:26] And when we show up, we allow all of the other athletes to show up as well.

[00:16:31] I like the point that you made about it's not that we're saying you have to go and talk to anyone and everyone.

[00:16:38] You know, you don't have to go call a press conference and say, hey, I'm struggling with my mental health.

[00:16:42] I mean, when you do something like that at the athlete level, you obviously have the power to raise a significant amount of awareness to a subject.

[00:16:48] So there's a positive there.

[00:16:50] But for the athletes who are not comfortable doing that yet, they can also still express that there's something going on that they're struggling with internally in a more private setting and seek the support and help that they need.

[00:17:02] What mechanisms exist for professional athletes today that they could tap into and utilize if they are struggling in that way?

[00:17:13] Yeah, so really great point.

[00:17:15] And you are right.

[00:17:16] It does not need to be something that's public.

[00:17:19] I think the reason why Damar and Kevin felt like it needed to be public is because they had the ability to influence other people.

[00:17:27] And the impact that they could make on other people just by telling their story was critically important, right?

[00:17:34] But it does not mean that every person who decides that they want to actually engage in those conversations need to have the conversation.

[00:17:42] For the union in particular, our focus was on the well-being of the player from the perspective of a physical injury as well as mentally.

[00:17:52] Because we understand that if you're bringing all of those things to the court, it weighs on you as heavily as if you had a knot in your neck or a cramp in your hamstring, right?

[00:18:02] And so we want to make sure that they had access to that.

[00:18:05] So at the union, we had player wellness coordinators that they could go to and talk to.

[00:18:11] We had Dr. Parham, who was amazing, who led our mental health initiatives.

[00:18:15] He used to talk about mental health is wealth and how important it was to make sure that you had all of those things in place.

[00:18:22] So you had your union that could do that.

[00:18:23] The teams actually also had counselors and therapists on site, which made a huge difference if people needed to talk about things, particularly things that were more public.

[00:18:34] So, for example, if someone's parent died or grandparent died, that was sort of a public grieving.

[00:18:41] And so it was almost seen as acceptable that you talk to someone about that, right?

[00:18:46] But what the hope is is that by making those people available and having those experiences that people would start to take advantage of it.

[00:18:55] And so they did.

[00:18:56] But in addition, our players would go out and seek help outside of the team, outside of the union for various reasons.

[00:19:05] Some of it may have been because of privacy.

[00:19:06] Some of it may have been because they wanted to do this where they didn't feel like they needed to tell people every day that they were doing things.

[00:19:13] You know, I remember C.J. McCollum during our global health symposium, him saying that he was in the locker room talking to a guy and he says, well, I just finished my therapy session.

[00:19:22] I just did.

[00:19:22] And he said that he could see like there was a little bit of a pause.

[00:19:25] And he thought, there's no big deal.

[00:19:28] Like, let's just talk about it.

[00:19:29] Let's just move on.

[00:19:29] Because it's so important that people understand that you can do that.

[00:19:34] You can engage in these conversations.

[00:19:36] And it's OK.

[00:19:37] It's OK.

[00:19:43] We do that not only as a professional athlete, but even in the corporate world that I came from.

[00:19:48] It is important to tell people that something is really hard.

[00:19:52] You know, there used to be this saying.

[00:19:54] And I remember one time someone said to me, Tamika, you're like a little duck and you're going across the pond.

[00:19:59] And I know underneath the pond your legs are kicking feverishly.

[00:20:02] And I'm like, yes, it is.

[00:20:03] And it's OK to tell people that you are.

[00:20:06] Your legs are kicking feverishly, that you're scared, that you feel like an imposter, that there are things that concern you.

[00:20:12] It's OK to say that because now the next person who you're bringing up or comes behind you can feel comfortable saying that to you.

[00:20:20] It is so important that we're leading by example.

[00:20:23] You used a very interesting word when you said imposter.

[00:20:27] That's a it seems like over the last couple of weeks, all conversations I've been having have been centered somehow one way or another.

[00:20:34] They lead back to this conversation piece around imposter and imposter syndrome.

[00:20:37] And I'm wondering from where you were sitting during your time with the NBA Players Association, whether you saw athletes struggle with something like that.

[00:20:47] Oh, absolutely.

[00:20:48] Because to some extent, you know, you are a professional athlete, but there's some expectation that you know everything about everything.

[00:20:57] Right.

[00:20:57] Right.

[00:20:58] And the reality is a lot of what we learn or do is through exposure.

[00:21:02] So getting exposure to the right people, understanding sort of the business side.

[00:21:08] And and some people don't feel comfortable saying, you know what, I don't really know what this means or I don't know that I need to set up a trust or I don't know, you know, how to go about doing X or Y.

[00:21:17] And the minute that you feel like you don't know something that you should know, you feel like an imposter.

[00:21:24] The minute you think people are going to figure you out, you feel like an imposter.

[00:21:28] Typically for them, it's on the court when they're like, gosh, I can't do this the way that I used to do it or I'm not as fast doing this or faster than someone else.

[00:21:36] You're thinking they're going to figure this out.

[00:21:37] And at any minute, they're going to trade me or decide to do something else.

[00:21:40] The same thing is true in the corporate world because we think we are supposed to know everything.

[00:21:46] Fortunately for me, I know that I don't know everything.

[00:21:49] I know that there's always room to learn and to grow and shame on me if I'm not.

[00:21:54] But at the same time, people do put you in a different place when you're a leader.

[00:21:59] They sort of see you in a different place where you they think that you know everything.

[00:22:03] And I have no problem telling people that I want to be surrounded by people that are smarter than me.

[00:22:10] Right.

[00:22:10] You should be.

[00:22:11] If I'm the smartest person in the room, we're a drop.

[00:22:14] Right.

[00:22:14] Because everybody brings these strengths.

[00:22:17] And because I spent 30 years in consulting and working with economists and working with finance people, I recognize that, oh, this person is really good in legal.

[00:22:26] This person is really good in econometrics and they can do regression analysis and things like that.

[00:22:32] And I'm not expected to know that.

[00:22:34] But at the same time, when you get to a certain level, you think that you have to meet the expectations of people.

[00:22:40] And I will tell you a great mentor that I had.

[00:22:43] Her name was Joyce Roche.

[00:22:45] And she wrote the book, The Empress Has No Clothes, The Imposter Syndrome.

[00:22:48] And she taught me a lot about the imposter syndrome.

[00:22:53] She was, you know, is an amazing woman.

[00:22:56] She was in a C-suite role for many years.

[00:23:00] She sat on nine public boards.

[00:23:01] She, you know, by all accounts, you can't imagine someone like her who was so successful feeling like an imposter.

[00:23:08] And she said, absolutely.

[00:23:10] She felt like every day somebody was going to say she wasn't smart enough.

[00:23:13] She didn't belong there, et cetera.

[00:23:15] And it would rear its head.

[00:23:16] And we act in very defensive ways when it does, right?

[00:23:20] We, as women, sometimes get sad.

[00:23:22] Sometimes we get angry.

[00:23:24] Sometimes we get defensive.

[00:23:25] But we got to recognize that it exists.

[00:23:27] And we have to talk about it.

[00:23:29] You know, there have been many articles from Harvard Business Review, for example, that they say, stop talking about imposter syndrome.

[00:23:35] Stop talking about that this is how you're feeling.

[00:23:38] And I think the impetus behind that is because there are occasions when people put you in those positions to make you feel that way, right?

[00:23:47] I think we call it gaslighting to some extent, right?

[00:23:49] And so the fact that you just made a response to something and then someone says the exact same thing and everybody says, oh, that's such a great idea.

[00:23:56] And you are like, did I just not say that?

[00:23:59] But those are things that happens.

[00:24:01] And that's what the Harvard Business Review article is saying.

[00:24:03] Like, don't always think that you're being an imposter because sometimes you're put in these situations that are male-dominated or you're the minority and you feel that way.

[00:24:13] So you've got to recognize the distinction between sort of being an imposter and sort of being gaslighted, if you will.

[00:24:19] And so I think it's so important that we do recognize those things.

[00:24:23] But when that rears its head for me, which it often does even today coming here, I have to think to myself, like, why am I here?

[00:24:32] What have I been asked to do?

[00:24:34] Can I do the things that I've been asked to do?

[00:24:37] What are my limitations?

[00:24:38] So that you're telling that voice in your head to sort of calm itself down.

[00:24:43] That negative thinking can be so powerful.

[00:24:46] And it's the same thing that our athletes see.

[00:24:49] It's the same thing that our children see.

[00:24:51] I have two boys, and they are very comfortable expressing their feelings.

[00:24:57] And it's so important that you tell them that it's okay to express their feelings.

[00:25:02] And so you can see I still call them boys when they're 19 and soon to be 22 years old.

[00:25:07] But it's so important that they do that.

[00:25:10] My son is a professional bass fisherman, my youngest, and he gets anxious out on the water, right?

[00:25:16] It's 1230.

[00:25:17] The tournament's over at 2 o'clock, and he has no fish in the boat.

[00:25:21] And he says, like Kevin Love, he has panic attacks.

[00:25:24] And there have been times that he's called me and said, Mom, I'm not doing that.

[00:25:29] I'm worried about this.

[00:25:30] Or, you know, where the day before a tournament will say, I didn't catch anything today, and I'm worried.

[00:25:35] And I'll say, just breathe.

[00:25:36] Just breathe.

[00:25:37] Just start to breathe.

[00:25:38] Breathe in through your nose.

[00:25:39] Breathe out through your mouth.

[00:25:40] It's so important that we do that.

[00:25:43] But the fact that he can feel comfortable saying that, not only is an example for him and all of the other people who are fishermen.

[00:25:52] So he's at the Auburn bass protein.

[00:25:56] So many of them, I'm sure, experience that as well.

[00:25:58] If Reese talks about that with them, they can feel comfortable talking about that.

[00:26:03] If Roke feels uncomfortable with pressure that he has for an internship or anxiety from taking a test or whatever, and he talks about it, then other people feel comfortable talking about it.

[00:26:13] I'm grateful that our kids feel comfortable talking about the things that are really hard for them.

[00:26:19] Because life is really hard.

[00:26:21] And people aren't always so kind.

[00:26:23] And so for me, it's so important that we talk more about it.

[00:26:27] We reduce the stigma associated with it.

[00:26:29] We don't make it where it's a thing that's seen as a weakness for men.

[00:26:33] Because it is not.

[00:26:34] It shows strength in a man, in my opinion.

[00:26:37] I'm so glad that you said that very last part there.

[00:26:40] Because I think that's the constant misnomer that vulnerability and showing emotions is somehow associated with weakness.

[00:26:46] And we tie our masculinity around the concept of our being the strong, silent type.

[00:26:52] And somehow that makes us more masculine, more alpha than the next.

[00:26:56] When in reality, we're being emotionally regulated, being able to understand how you're feeling and working through those to move forward in a healthy manner actually makes you a stronger man.

[00:27:10] Because you're not quick to get triggered.

[00:27:12] You're not quick to suddenly have an outburst or suddenly feel overwhelmed by everything because you don't even know how to manage your own emotions.

[00:27:21] And so I'm finding more and more of these conversations are lending credibility to this idea that vulnerability actually equals strength, not weakness.

[00:27:31] It really does.

[00:27:32] And, you know, at Deloitte, and I was mentioning before Joyce Roche, she had written this letter to her younger self.

[00:27:39] And she encouraged me to do that.

[00:27:40] And I did it, you know, late one night with the thought that I would never, ever share that letter.

[00:27:46] You know, it's sort of therapeutic, writing in a journal, et cetera.

[00:27:49] And I was sort of put on the spot to read this letter.

[00:27:52] And it was right when I was up for the role of managing partner.

[00:27:56] And I talked about everything.

[00:27:58] I talked about my mother being pregnant with me in high school.

[00:28:01] I talked about being in a car accident and not, you know, knowing if she loved me and feeling like I had to really prove myself.

[00:28:08] And that's why I went to law school and business school because you kept striving to be more, to do more.

[00:28:13] And after I finished reading this letter, I was like, oh, my gosh, this is it.

[00:28:19] Now I am absolutely not getting this role.

[00:28:22] They are definitely not going to look at me for this role because I'm not what they consider sort of the perfect type of person that would go in that role.

[00:28:29] It was absolutely the opposite.

[00:28:32] First of all, people who didn't feel comfortable coming and talking to me now felt comfortable coming and talking to me.

[00:28:41] They felt like they could be authentic.

[00:28:43] I can't tell you how many times I've read that letter and women have come up to me crying or men have come up to me and said, you know, I'm so glad that you said that because I thought to be successful in the corporate world, you had to sort of be born into it.

[00:28:56] I said, no, you don't.

[00:28:58] But I, too, thought that before I was able to sort of change or transition and recognize that you can tell your authentic story because that's what you bring to work every single day with you.

[00:29:10] That's what drives you.

[00:29:11] And it's important that other people see what drives you.

[00:29:14] It was an uncomfortable moment for me, but it was also the moment that I recognized that being uncomfortable was where I needed to be.

[00:29:22] Because otherwise we're all not growing if we sort of stay in that same place.

[00:29:27] What was the most important point you made in that letter to yourself?

[00:29:35] That I was enough.

[00:29:37] That I deserved a seat at the table.

[00:29:40] And that, you know, those moments that I didn't think I was enough, that I had to be enough for me and for all the little girls and little boys that come after me that don't feel like they're enough.

[00:29:57] That's such a powerful place to find yourself comfortable in.

[00:30:04] Because feeling enough is a hard thing when you're constantly comparing yourself to everyone else.

[00:30:10] To your predecessors, to the person coming up next to you, to your competitors, to your friends, your family.

[00:30:18] I mean, I know that I've struggled with that.

[00:30:21] I've had guests talk about the struggle with comparison.

[00:30:27] I mean, athletes in general are constantly compared to one another.

[00:30:32] This person is better than this person.

[00:30:34] This person is a top five player.

[00:30:36] This person can no longer play anymore like he used to, etc.

[00:30:40] And I just can only imagine, again, because there's already enough self-talk.

[00:30:45] That obnoxious roommate that lives upstairs just already feeding you negative self-talk.

[00:30:51] But then when you have media, fans, pundits, experts, everyone just sort of going, you're no longer capable compared to X.

[00:31:02] Or if you're being traded for another player, it's because that player is an upgrade over you.

[00:31:08] Like just hearing that, reading that, all of that.

[00:31:10] I can only imagine the amount of, like just the noise that just floods into an athlete's head at the same time.

[00:31:18] And it is a journey.

[00:31:20] And I think our athletes in particular have to remind themselves that they are enough.

[00:31:26] I mean, they have already made it.

[00:31:28] Many of them have been playing since they were seven years old.

[00:31:33] Many of them have been traded since they were seven years old.

[00:31:36] They have been independent contractors for most of their lifetime.

[00:31:41] And so at some point, they have to recognize that it is enough.

[00:31:45] And quite frankly, you know, you hear Kevin Love talk about this quite often,

[00:31:50] that he had to see himself as someone other than a basketball player.

[00:31:55] Because if you get so caught up in what you are doing as part of who you are,

[00:32:01] it really becomes challenging when what you are doing, you're no longer doing.

[00:32:06] Because we're all on this journey, right?

[00:32:09] But if we can be comfortable with ourselves to say,

[00:32:12] I have done enough, I am enough, and I'll continue to be enough,

[00:32:17] that puts us in a whole different place.

[00:32:19] But it's hard.

[00:32:20] It's a journey, especially when you've lived your life

[00:32:24] only identifying as a professional athlete,

[00:32:28] only identifying as a corporate executive.

[00:32:31] All of a sudden, you know, life sort of throws you those things

[00:32:34] and you have to recognize that you are enough.

[00:32:37] There's an identity crisis that happens there.

[00:32:39] Oh, no question.

[00:32:40] The episode that we released this week was with a,

[00:32:47] his name is Donil Henry.

[00:32:49] And we briefly talked about him yesterday,

[00:32:51] where, you know, he finally made it to the World Cup.

[00:32:56] He got his moment, his dream,

[00:32:59] and then he was injured right before it

[00:33:02] and saw it ripped away.

[00:33:04] And when I had the conversation with him,

[00:33:06] he's clearly still struggling with the fact that he got so close

[00:33:11] and it was stripped away from him.

[00:33:13] But one of the other conversation pieces we had was about how he's learning to self-identify

[00:33:23] in his post-playing life.

[00:33:27] And I've heard many athletes also talk about the challenges of,

[00:33:31] you know, they're relatively young men by the time they retire.

[00:33:34] We call athletes old men at 30, which is ridiculous.

[00:33:38] It is ridiculous.

[00:33:40] I mean, I'm 36.

[00:33:42] So, I mean, I must be like, I should be retiring by that.

[00:33:46] Yeah, you can still play.

[00:33:48] But, you know, once they finish, you know, their playing days,

[00:33:53] their entire identity from, to your point,

[00:33:55] since childhood has been to be this athlete.

[00:33:59] And suddenly they're not that.

[00:34:01] So who are they?

[00:34:02] If they're not the athlete, are they a father?

[00:34:05] Are they a partner?

[00:34:06] Are they a brother, a son, an entrepreneur?

[00:34:09] What are they?

[00:34:11] And I'm wondering, from what you saw during your time with the NBA Players Association,

[00:34:16] what resources or mechanisms existed to support athletes post-career?

[00:34:22] Because that's where a lot of mental health challenges come up,

[00:34:26] depression, anxiety, you know,

[00:34:29] the challenges of trying to navigate life post-career.

[00:34:32] Yeah, so we had an entire department that was focused on transitioning.

[00:34:38] And it was transitioning out of the NBA.

[00:34:42] Obviously, there is a, you know, Retired Players Association as well.

[00:34:45] But even while our athletes are actually playing,

[00:34:49] they are doing training for other things.

[00:34:51] So we have Broadcast University,

[00:34:53] because many of them want to, you know, go into broadcast journalism.

[00:34:56] And so they actually are doing that during the summer.

[00:34:59] We have classes where they're doing financial literacy,

[00:35:02] and they have Goldman Sachs and JPMorgan Chase coming in and talking to them about that.

[00:35:07] And then they become very interested in a particular topic,

[00:35:10] and they may decide to pursue that afterwards.

[00:35:13] So there are a lot of things.

[00:35:15] We take them in through real estate courses,

[00:35:16] because many of them decide they want to go into real estate,

[00:35:19] or business development, or, you know, entrepreneurship.

[00:35:22] So all of those things we are doing even while they're in the game,

[00:35:27] so that they can be prepared to do this outside of the game.

[00:35:30] We actually teach them about coaching.

[00:35:33] So, you know, oftentimes at our, we had a top 100 camp in the summer.

[00:35:37] So many of our players wanted to be coaches.

[00:35:39] They still want to be in that space.

[00:35:40] So they were actually getting training for being coaches during the summer.

[00:35:44] So all of that is part of holistically what the union is providing,

[00:35:48] because we recognize that, you know, this doesn't go on forever.

[00:35:52] But it's also why generational wealth was so important to me in the last CBA negotiation,

[00:35:57] because it was about how is this going to be sustainable?

[00:36:01] So you probably know this, Samir,

[00:36:02] but one of the things that we were able to do was to make it such that players through the MBPA

[00:36:08] could actually buy into private equity that was buying into teams,

[00:36:12] so that they could have a part of what they were actually doing.

[00:36:16] Can you imagine every day knowing that you're going out and playing,

[00:36:19] you're getting paid for it, but in addition,

[00:36:22] you have the opportunity to do something that's sustainable,

[00:36:25] that will go on for generations.

[00:36:26] And so that was so important to me during the last CBA negotiation,

[00:36:31] is that we gave our players the opportunity to do that as well.

[00:36:34] That was creating generational wealth.

[00:36:36] Because what we don't appreciate is we get so focused on their performance,

[00:36:40] we don't think about they need to get exposure to the people who are have done lots of things that

[00:36:47] have lots of money.

[00:36:49] You know, I had that conversation a lot of times where people say they make lots of money.

[00:36:52] I'm like, it's not about making, it's about having, it's about being sustainable.

[00:36:56] And so giving them the exposure to that.

[00:36:58] My first meeting with our executive committee during the All-Star Game back in 22,

[00:37:03] we had a dinner with billionaires so that we could talk to them about what it meant to have wealth.

[00:37:09] So the Michael Rubens, the Robert Kraft, the Magic Johnson, the Robert Smith at a table,

[00:37:15] Joyce Roche talking to them about actually having generational wealth.

[00:37:19] Because those are the things that, you know, we think that is a given because you have,

[00:37:24] you're making lots of money.

[00:37:25] And so it's important that our players were being well-rounded

[00:37:28] and actually had everything they needed to be successful.

[00:37:31] Everything includes not only the financial wherewithal, the exposure to the right people,

[00:37:36] but being in the right mental space as well.

[00:37:38] And none of those other things exist if you're not in the right mental space

[00:37:43] and where you don't feel comfortable talking about it or suggesting if you do need help.

[00:37:48] Because it's hard.

[00:37:49] What they do every single day is really, really hard.

[00:37:53] And they have to constantly be reminded that you are enough.

[00:37:59] Even in the story with Donald Henry, when you talked about like not making it at the very last minute.

[00:38:05] He's enough.

[00:38:06] How many people have gotten to that point?

[00:38:09] He made it to that point.

[00:38:11] And so we have to sit back on the things that we have really already accomplished and know that it's enough.

[00:38:17] You don't need one more thing.

[00:38:19] But for us, it's always one more thing.

[00:38:21] Always the next thing.

[00:38:23] And, you know, a yoga instructor told me one day,

[00:38:25] Tamika, when are you going to be happy if you always think about happiness being on the other side?

[00:38:30] Oh, when I make partner.

[00:38:32] Oh, when I make when I become CEO.

[00:38:34] If it's always the next thing, you never actually get there.

[00:38:38] And you need to be present and enjoy the moment that you're in.

[00:38:41] Because honestly, if we keep striving for something else, whatever is next will always be next.

[00:38:48] And we'll never get there.

[00:38:49] And it's so important that we're present and happy in the moment that we're in.

[00:38:53] It's really about the journey.

[00:38:54] It is about the journey.

[00:38:56] Not a straight line for anything.

[00:38:59] You're the collective bargaining agreement.

[00:39:02] And for those who don't really understand what that entails or looks like, can you maybe share a little more about what your role was in that process?

[00:39:09] What you were doing and sort of what the outcome of that was?

[00:39:12] Yeah.

[00:39:13] So, you know, part of the collective bargaining agreement is that it really is looking at everything involving our players.

[00:39:19] So it considers, you know, their health care, their pension plans, how many games they play, load management, how they're compensated, all everything that you can think about.

[00:39:31] Where an MBA player is encompassed within the collective bargaining agreements, you know, six or 700 pages.

[00:39:36] It's a lot.

[00:39:37] And every single detail had to be looked at.

[00:39:41] And so, gratefully, we have an amazing team at the MBPA, so with our general counsel and others who really were engaged in this on a daily basis to figure out the numbers.

[00:39:51] Like what happens with, you know, the tax threshold?

[00:39:53] What happens with how teams are paying for things?

[00:39:56] You know, what happens if they aren't meeting the minimum salary requirements?

[00:39:59] So all of those things are included within the CBA.

[00:40:02] So, in my opinion, we had many, many wins, you know, throughout the seven-year period, which is for how long the CBA is, about an additional $50 billion to our players.

[00:40:13] Wow.

[00:40:14] That's a huge win.

[00:40:15] That's a great thing because our players bring so much value.

[00:40:19] Without them, there is no National Basketball Association, right?

[00:40:23] Yep.

[00:40:23] And so they want to be paid what they're worth doing this.

[00:40:27] But at the same time, they want to make sure that it's done in a fair way, that it's including things for mental health, that it's protecting their privacy, that they're getting all of these other benefits as well because it's so important.

[00:40:39] And people think, gosh, you make so much money.

[00:40:42] Why would you care about these things?

[00:40:44] Because it's not about the money.

[00:40:46] At the end of the day, no one is going to really care how much money you made.

[00:40:51] They're going to look at what contributions you made to the world, how you made a difference, what your impact was.

[00:40:57] And gratefully, our players really care about that.

[00:41:00] The leadership within the MBPA really cared about that.

[00:41:03] So I was really fortunate to work with an executive committee that cared about those things as well.

[00:41:09] What an incredible role to get to play in that process, to really help support the transition towards that generational wealth that you talked about.

[00:41:24] Setting these players up for the future, but also supporting the ones because not everybody ends up being a LeBron James.

[00:41:30] And so there are athletes who come into the league, spend a couple of years, and then their careers never really take off.

[00:41:36] And that was the extent of it.

[00:41:38] And creating a space where they're still also cared for and taken care of.

[00:41:42] I mean, the road is littered with broken dreams of athletes.

[00:41:47] And they deserve an equal amount of care and consideration.

[00:41:51] And so having a collective agreement that protects all of the players that way is so important.

[00:41:57] It is. It's very important.

[00:41:59] But I will tell you that it is my hope that players like LeBron James, like Steph Curry,

[00:42:05] will not only be remembered for being the amazing athletes that they are,

[00:42:09] but they are both incredibly kind and giving individuals.

[00:42:14] LeBron has Academy in Akron, Ohio, where he provides all wraparound services for his students.

[00:42:21] He promises they have committed to a promise for him to be successful.

[00:42:25] And he makes sure that they make it through high school.

[00:42:28] Those are the real legacies.

[00:42:30] Steph Curry was really involved with what's happening at HBCUs.

[00:42:34] He brought golf to Howard and is supportive of those things.

[00:42:37] That's your true legacy.

[00:42:38] That's what life is really about, the impact that you're making on others.

[00:42:42] And that's what they do.

[00:42:43] And they recognize that.

[00:42:45] So while I think it's important that we recognize the things that they have accomplished from an athletic standpoint,

[00:42:51] they are amazing human beings as well.

[00:42:55] Is there anything that can be done to curb the external criticism, the negativity?

[00:43:05] I know some arenas have made it more of a, and I don't know if it's a team thing or an arena thing,

[00:43:10] but they've made it more of a point where if a fan gets really verbally abusive,

[00:43:15] they just kick them out, they ban them.

[00:43:18] But that doesn't necessarily stop people from still doing it.

[00:43:22] So I'm wondering, I mean, I'm also cognizant of like there is a limitation on what you really could do.

[00:43:28] But I'm just wondering from what you saw, and maybe it's still missing,

[00:43:33] what can be done to support athletes, but also refs, you know, coaches, you know,

[00:43:39] the team personnel on the bench, on the sideline, you know, how do you protect them?

[00:43:44] Yeah.

[00:43:44] And it is important that they are protected, right?

[00:43:47] And, you know, part of it kind of goes back to the beginning of our conversation at Deloitte

[00:43:52] when we started the Be Kind, right?

[00:43:54] Part of the reason for starting that is because I knew no one, who's going to argue with you about being kind, right?

[00:44:00] It's sort of basic just to be kind.

[00:44:02] And so I remember having the conversation with Adam Silver about being kind

[00:44:07] and that we had to encourage our fans to be kind.

[00:44:11] And I said, we should issue a civility statement where we talk about what it means to be civil to one another

[00:44:17] and what the expectation is of our fans that come into the arena,

[00:44:21] what the expectation is for our players as well.

[00:44:24] And so we issued a civility statement right at the beginning of my tenure at the MBPA.

[00:44:28] But then when we noticed things were starting to sort of turn and go in a different direction,

[00:44:33] I went back to Adam and I said, we have to do something to reinforce it.

[00:44:36] So we started making sure that, you know, we you can sort of gauge how fans are going, right?

[00:44:42] And you get to the third quarter, the game is getting tight, people become more aggressive,

[00:44:46] the fans become more aggressive.

[00:44:47] So we started making more announcements during the games about the expected behavior.

[00:44:52] So in the third and fourth quarter, that was coming up quite a bit.

[00:44:55] And then for the fans that were sitting really close, we now had things on the chairs that were reminding them,

[00:45:01] this is not appropriate.

[00:45:03] You can't do these things.

[00:45:04] And when you're down on the floor and you're that close to them, they hear you.

[00:45:07] It really is impacting them.

[00:45:10] And so we really needed to change how that was happening.

[00:45:13] Now, of course, we still have work to do, right?

[00:45:16] They still have a lot of work to do to get that accomplished.

[00:45:18] But they absolutely have recognized that there is something that needs to change.

[00:45:22] And in society, there's things that need to change.

[00:45:25] We just need to be kinder to one another.

[00:45:27] We really do.

[00:45:28] And I think that, you know, sort of the where we are now, we're not recognizing sort of the basic human kindness.

[00:45:36] We don't know what anyone is going through.

[00:45:39] So even just greeting someone that you see on the street making eye contact could just make such a huge difference.

[00:45:45] And so if you look at our players in the same way, that they're human beings and, you know, that's my brother or that's, you know, my son or that's the father of my grandchildren.

[00:45:58] If you think about them in that way, it's really hard to not be appropriate with them.

[00:46:03] And so I think we just have to start to treat each other the way in which we want to be treated as well and just be kind.

[00:46:12] Well, speaking of kindness, you've been incredibly kind with your time.

[00:46:15] And your wisdom.

[00:46:16] And I want to ask you before we end this, what you're up to today, tomorrow, next week, next month.

[00:46:26] What's happening in your world?

[00:46:28] Well, thank you very much, Samir.

[00:46:30] And thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk about this.

[00:46:33] I think it is so critically important and is such a part of our athlete's journey that is missed.

[00:46:39] And as you can imagine, I still am very much intrigued with the game and with sports.

[00:46:43] There's a lot of passion.

[00:46:44] There is.

[00:46:45] And so, you know, and I recognize it as being more holistic.

[00:46:49] And so what I am doing now is really consulting with places throughout the world on how we can reimagine the game.

[00:46:57] So how can we reimagine the game in the Middle East?

[00:46:59] So whether that's with fishing, whether that's with basketball, whether that's with women's sports, that's what I'm focused on.

[00:47:06] And so I've spent the last nine months really looking at that and working with others to change the sport ecosystem.

[00:47:12] Because from an economic standpoint, it's going to change the game.

[00:47:15] And those individuals that are really interested in it, we're looking at it from a wellness perspective.

[00:47:20] So obesity and diabetes and mental health.

[00:47:24] And so that becomes part of why it's so important to me to make sure that we're bringing this to other parts of the world so that they are considering all those things as well.

[00:47:33] So they can be equally as successful as we've been here in the U.S.

[00:47:37] Well, it sounds like you're just on another journey and one that sounds extremely exciting and fulfilling and one that I imagine will also take up most of your time.

[00:47:48] But I wish you the best of luck on that journey.

[00:47:50] Thank you.

[00:47:51] I'm excited to watch you just absolutely crush this journey and excel in it just like you have in everything else you've done.

[00:48:00] Thank you so much for your time.

[00:48:02] Thank you very much.

[00:48:03] This is really appreciated.

[00:48:04] Thank you so much.

[00:48:05] Thank you so much, everyone.