Award-winning Director on Overcoming Failure & Imposter Syndrome | Justin Wu Ep.126 - Gent's Talk

[00:00:00] I want to start with landing the feature film.

[00:00:02] That first experience was just so unbelievable. Weeks would pass, nothing would really happen,

[00:00:07] you know, and then you get the calls like, we want you.

[00:00:10] Justin Wu is a multi-award-winning director, speaker, photographer, and creative director

[00:00:15] who's worked with world-class talent such as Simu Liu, Jeremy Irons, Selena Gomez, and many more.

[00:00:21] What was the most recent failure you've experienced that's really impacted you?

[00:00:27] To not be as present as I want to be for my family.

[00:00:30] You've let people down.

[00:00:31] I feel like I've let people down and there is one very big one and that kind of ties to my father.

[00:00:37] When he was diagnosed with terminal cancer, he wasn't given very long to live.

[00:00:42] That was actually the best part of my life because every day became an opportunity.

[00:00:47] Nine days left. Here is what he wants to get off his chest. Eight days left.

[00:00:50] You pose more questions and it would just inspire him to

[00:00:53] get started a whole different conversation. But by the end, we actually hit a wall.

[00:00:57] He told me very explicitly, this is as far as I would go.

[00:01:01] I'm not willing to share anymore. And this is what you have to live with.

[00:01:04] If you could sit down for one more conversation with your dad and show him everything that you've

[00:01:10] done to this point, what would you hope his reaction would be?

[00:01:28] Justin, welcome back to Gents Talk.

[00:01:30] Happy to be back.

[00:01:31] I'm so excited to have this conversation with you. It's been, I was looking at it,

[00:01:34] I think it was October of 2022. We did the last episode. So we're going on almost

[00:01:39] two full years now since we've last talked. I mean, we've talked in between obviously, but

[00:01:44] I'm really excited to have this conversation. This doesn't happen if it wasn't for our friends at

[00:01:50] Angels Envy for helping us to put this together. So shout out to the team there for just being amazing

[00:01:55] partners on this. I was listening to our episode before coming into the studio because you had remarked

[00:02:04] how you enjoyed the last episode, but you really felt you wanted to get a little deeper into certain

[00:02:09] topics that matter to you. We talked about identity. We talked about your relationship with your dad.

[00:02:15] We talked about how film drives you and you've got some exciting stuff we're going to be talking

[00:02:19] about in a moment. But I want to start with the identity piece. You talked about how it took you a

[00:02:25] while to really understand and comprehend the full scope of your own identity. How far along are you in

[00:02:33] that journey today? Where are you? Still discovering myself. I feel that through the beauty of actually

[00:02:41] film and TV, I think a lot of the work that we do is about character analysis, right? We have a wider

[00:02:48] way, a wide array of diverse characters that we have to always portray on screen, whether you're old or

[00:02:55] young from different generations, different demographics. A lot of the work that we had to do

[00:03:02] is to do the proper research and understand what their backgrounds are, what their motivations are.

[00:03:06] And I find that when you're kind of deep diving into these different character archetypes and

[00:03:13] watching characters and having them express it and really spending time with these characters on set,

[00:03:20] I really discover new aspects of myself. And I think that identity is also one of those things that's

[00:03:27] constantly evolving, right? And I define identity as, you know, what values you aspire to have,

[00:03:35] what beliefs, what are your virtues. And I think these are sort of the elements that are constantly in flux.

[00:03:43] And, you know, being able to explore this with other human beings and have it expressed on camera, I think it's

[00:03:51] quite a beautiful thing. So I'd say that it's an ever evolving journey. And I think that I'm much more

[00:03:58] sure of myself today than I've ever been. But, you know, it's still one of those things that I'm very

[00:04:03] excited to keep exploring as I'm going.

[00:04:06] Is there anything from two years ago to where you are today? And I keep using two years ago for

[00:04:10] anyone who's listening and watching just because that's when we last talked on the podcast. So from

[00:04:15] where you were two years ago, when you stepped into the studio and where you are today,

[00:04:18] what's been the biggest change for you?

[00:04:21] I think confidence. I think confidence to me.

[00:04:24] It's a hard one.

[00:04:24] It's a hard one because it's so much of this industry is, I mean, I'm sure I've mentioned this

[00:04:31] last time and it's quite frequently brought up this idea of this imposter syndrome and how

[00:04:37] I'm very young to this business, relatively speaking, I gotten relatively quickly. And oftentimes

[00:04:44] when you're being put in a position of leadership where you have a lot of your staff

[00:04:48] younger than you or, oh, sorry, much of your staff older than you, you're put in a place where

[00:04:55] you have to very quickly be assertive and know exactly what you want, be very clear with

[00:05:02] the communication and also just be able to express your own truth as clearly and as effectively as

[00:05:10] possible. So I think that I'm much more sure of myself having been on so many different TV shows and

[00:05:15] now arriving at this penultimate moment with my future film.

[00:05:21] Congrats on that, by the way. That's huge.

[00:05:23] Thank you so much.

[00:05:23] And we just teased it, but we're going to come back to it, I promise.

[00:05:29] How do you be sure of yourself when you're talking to people who in theory have had more experience

[00:05:35] than you? That imposter syndrome just seems to be a theme that's constantly coming up in the

[00:05:39] conversations I've been having on the podcast where no matter what position you are in life,

[00:05:44] no matter how senior or how junior you are in your role, in your function, imposter syndrome can creep

[00:05:49] in very quickly and can kill your confidence. So when you are on these sets, when you are in these

[00:05:55] meetings and you're having these conversations and you see the room, you see that there are people

[00:05:59] who've been around much longer, have been doing it much longer, have various skill sets, somehow,

[00:06:03] you know, you might say they definitely do it better than me, some will be at the same level,

[00:06:07] some of your junior. How are you navigating keeping the imposter syndrome at bay while also being

[00:06:14] present? Because I think that's part of the hard part is while all of this internal stuff is happening,

[00:06:18] you still have to focus on what's in front of you.

[00:06:21] I attribute that to a technique that one of my mentors had reminded me and constantly reminds me,

[00:06:29] which is to know that you're worth it, right? They booked you for a reason. And I think that idea

[00:06:35] of you being selected for a very particular reason should tell you that you deserve this. So I think

[00:06:46] this idea of being worth it and deserving this title includes all the responsibilities that it has. And so

[00:06:54] when you can recognize that you've achieved something that other experts, studios, producers,

[00:07:01] decision makers have felt that you are the right person for the job should give you the same level

[00:07:06] of confidence. So I think that kind of positive reinforcement of recognizing, you know, they're

[00:07:12] putting millions of dollars on the line and believe that you can handle this is also a reminder for

[00:07:20] yourself. So I think that there's always a constant battle, I think, not jumping too far ahead, but

[00:07:27] this past weekend, we had the festival screening of my feature and there was an award show very similar

[00:07:34] to the TIFF Tribute Awards. There was an award show to celebrate, you know, that the top 10

[00:07:40] upcoming actors by variety, as well as these lifetime achievement awards. And on stage right next to me,

[00:07:46] you'd have people like Nicolas Cage and Diane Warren. These people, they're just legends,

[00:07:52] right? And the fact that I'm in the same room with them, I think that is a clear visual

[00:08:01] representation where you feel the difference. And where are the imposter syndrome? These are people who've

[00:08:06] achieved something for an entire lifetime and are either on the rise or they've already made on the

[00:08:12] big screen. And I think that that's where you'd feel it. But where I gain the most confidence is

[00:08:18] really when you're on set and the producers are hands off. They've given you the trust that you

[00:08:26] are now in charge. You're the captain of the ship and they trust the direction you're taking it. So

[00:08:32] it's kind of a constant balance, I feel. And it does require a lot of reassurance and reminders. And

[00:08:37] I'm really thankful for friends and family who are able to kind of also remind me whenever I'm,

[00:08:43] you know, racked with anxiety. It's like, no, you know, you were chosen for a reason. So I feel that,

[00:08:50] but lately over the past couple of years, I really feel that I'm much more sure of myself and,

[00:08:55] and know that, you know, they chose me for a reason. So, uh, execute to the best of your abilities.

[00:09:00] Yeah. So I like to ask people in the moments, you know, a lot of what you described, um,

[00:09:06] very reasonably stunts imposter syndrome's ability to take over.

[00:09:12] But a lot of it, the way you described it as external, it's happening because you're at an

[00:09:17] event with so-and-so. And by looking at that external experience, you go, this is my validation

[00:09:23] in the quiet moments when you're at home by yourself and you're working on something or

[00:09:28] you're just reflecting on your life and you start, you know, your confidence starts to take a hit,

[00:09:34] the anxiety that can, you know, like, Oh, am I really as good as I think I am? Was it,

[00:09:38] am I faking it the whole time? Yeah. What do you say to yourself? What do you,

[00:09:42] what techniques do you take? Some people journal, some people, you know, just talk out loud. I know

[00:09:46] I've done that too, but what do you do to help yourself sort of continue to stay confident in

[00:09:51] those quiet moments? This may sound very egotistical, but I find that it's the, it's the reminder of the,

[00:09:57] the journey that you've been on. So, uh, in my office I have, you know, the typical things like the,

[00:10:04] the, the college diploma on the wall. Right. And that kind of tells you where you came from,

[00:10:07] but then, and also I have a lot of these, you know, um, mementos I've carried throughout my,

[00:10:13] my entire journey. So things like, um, uh, either a prop from a, from a shoot that was very meaningful

[00:10:21] to me. That was a milestone moment for me personally, for either many different reasons,

[00:10:26] either it was a personality that I'd really admired that I never thought I would ever be able

[00:10:30] to work with all the way to the placards I had. Um, the, when I was directing Kim's Convenience,

[00:10:37] for instance, uh, the, the chair backs, these are the, the, the, I would say the plates that you'd

[00:10:42] have on the director's chair that has your clear name on it as well as the TV show or the studio.

[00:10:48] And I think that when I was able to kind of see the growth that I've had and the, the many different

[00:10:53] steps that I've, that I've earned to kind of get to where I am, uh, that gives me the full reminder

[00:10:59] that no, I am on the right path and I've earned it. It's not as if I jumped so far ahead and I skip

[00:11:05] certain steps. I feel that, uh, when I see the, the level of progress that I've made, it's incremental

[00:11:13] at the same time it's, it's well earned. So I think that that's one way in the quiet moments for me to

[00:11:20] see and understand, right. Uh, this, it may appear, it may feel like my God, I it's only been three,

[00:11:28] four or five years that I just entered the business and now I'm here. But that said, I know a lot of

[00:11:34] hard work has been put into it. So, uh, when I, when I see those placards or chair backs or those

[00:11:42] signatures from cast and crew, I'm, I vividly remember being there. I vividly remember all the

[00:11:48] challenges that I faced. I, I remember how I overcame them. Um, some times I could not face

[00:11:55] and, and how with each successive project, I was able to strengthen those skills as well as

[00:12:04] learn a lot about my, my own identity, my own leadership style and be able to build upon that.

[00:12:10] And so I think that it comes with, um, it comes with time and it comes with the ability to reflect,

[00:12:19] uh, frequently on one's past achievements and failures that I feel that in the quiet moments,

[00:12:26] I'm able to be more sure of myself. What was the most recent failure you've experienced that's

[00:12:33] really impacted you positively, negatively? Hmm. Interesting. Well, I would say the, um,

[00:12:45] Hmm. That's a, that's a great question. That's a great question. There are a lot of like smaller

[00:12:49] failures. I'm thinking that there was a big failure that I've had in my life. And it may not have been,

[00:12:54] the failure itself may not have been big in terms of scale, but the impact it had on you was big.

[00:13:01] Right. Then I would say there is one very big one and that kind of ties to, to my father. And it

[00:13:09] not, it not necessarily is too, too recent. In fact, it kind of ties back to our first conversation.

[00:13:14] And I would say failure to not be as present as I want to be for my family. I think that, uh, with the

[00:13:21] very fast paced world that we live in, uh, I try my best to, to be present for my family. But at the

[00:13:29] same time, I look back and I realize that there are some milestone moments that I wish I could have

[00:13:34] been part of. And that's just one of the hard realities of this business is that when you're

[00:13:38] on a set, when you're on a TV show and the cameras are rolling, um, unexpected things can happen.

[00:13:44] The birth of a child, for instance, right. And not being able to take a day off and step away

[00:13:50] is pretty hard. And I think that the, there's a certain level of failure that comes with it and

[00:13:56] a certain guilt. And I think that the- You feel like you've let people down.

[00:13:59] I feel like I've let people down and it's a really weird balance that I, you know,

[00:14:04] thankfully my friends and family are very supportive and they understand how the expectations that come

[00:14:08] with this job that I have. But nonetheless, I think that the biggest failure I have is to

[00:14:14] constantly try to make time to reflect, uh, be present, uh, for, for my close ones, uh, that,

[00:14:20] that have supported me on my entire journey. So I'd say that the, the biggest learning I've had from

[00:14:26] that failure is, uh, uh, rebalancing priorities, knowing really what really matters. I think that,

[00:14:34] you know, oftentimes if you talk about, Oh, do what makes you happy, but although at the same time,

[00:14:38] I think another big part is, uh, do, do it, do what makes you happy, but also do what makes sense and,

[00:14:46] and, and what's, uh, important to you. Right. And sometimes it may not be happiness. Yeah.

[00:14:53] Right. That's, that's, that's always the challenge to find balance between what you're doing and what

[00:14:57] you feel you should be doing. That should version of ourselves that we're constantly playing tug of

[00:15:03] war with. Exactly. Uh, you, you touched on your dad. Um, in our last conversation, you referenced how,

[00:15:11] speaking of being present, you talked about how when he was diagnosed with terminal cancer,

[00:15:15] um, he wasn't given very long to live, but to everyone's surprise. And thankfully he had

[00:15:23] lived a lot longer than what the doctors had suggested would happen. And you talked about how

[00:15:29] it gave you an opportunity to finally be present with him. What was that journey really like?

[00:15:36] Just to knowing that every moment, like you don't know how many more of them you're going to get.

[00:15:42] Yeah. That's a hard thing to, as I was listening to you talk about that again, I was reflecting on,

[00:15:48] you know, if I had known X amount of time left with the people I love,

[00:15:53] like that's just even a hard thing to think about, let alone go through.

[00:15:57] Yeah. Um, it comes with a lot of mixed emotions. Of course, I think the, the first,

[00:16:02] uh, I would say, I would say, inkling is when you are faced with a harsh reality, right? So upon delivery

[00:16:11] of the news, you're, you're in complete shock. Uh, and that shock really affects you emotionally. It

[00:16:18] really affects your, your judgment, perhaps. Uh, of course what the first thing I did was kind of rush

[00:16:23] back home and, and just be present, do whatever my dad needs, you know, get all the affairs, uh,

[00:16:30] settled, but then really becomes the, the, the true discovery. And I think what I, what I'd done

[00:16:37] was to begin by listening. I think that's the first step, right? You know, listen to what he, his needs

[00:16:44] and wants are. So phase one would be, you know, let's, let's go through what he needs, uh, so that

[00:16:52] I can then better finally, hopefully break through. And I think, as we mentioned in the first conversation,

[00:16:58] we never quite had the strongest relationship. We were quite distant. Uh, it was very perhaps

[00:17:03] transactional. We may have loved each other, but it's not, it's not as if he expressed his love to me,

[00:17:08] um, uh, in, in the way I would have loved. And, but I knew that there

[00:17:14] was so much more I could mine and dig through and, and to try to reforge the relationship I've

[00:17:19] always wanted with my father. And the first step is to kind of get again, all the affairs settled so that

[00:17:25] all the remaining time that we have is to start the conversation, which is the hardest point.

[00:17:31] Right. And, and that requires a lot of repetition. I remember so vividly sitting on the couch and,

[00:17:36] you know, uh, being a director, I'm trying to control everything. You know, I, I was very insistent

[00:17:44] that we would start recording some of our conversations and for posterity. I would explain

[00:17:49] to him like, Oh, you know, we'll love for my future kids. Uh, if I have kids to, to hear, uh,

[00:17:56] some of the stories and lessons from my father, uh, their grandparents, um, and, and, and just capture

[00:18:03] the essence of who he is. Uh, and he was very resistant of course. And of course I turned the

[00:18:08] cameras off and turn the mic off. And I think it just takes time, but also I think there's an,

[00:18:15] there's an element of urgency that's also quite bizarre and, and it really transforms people.

[00:18:21] I remember, uh, from the time he was diagnosed and you're given a period of time, say a few months,

[00:18:27] it's really hard to kind of like quantify months, right? Like when it's kind of, it's kind of vague

[00:18:32] when you're given something more different, like say, Oh, you have a deadline in 10 days.

[00:18:36] You sort of know what a, what a day feels like. Uh, the hours, the hours of sleep that you have,

[00:18:43] the hours that you're present in the day doing your morning routine or whatever, and how much

[00:18:47] free time you have. But when you give them something as vague as months, two or three months,

[00:18:51] it's really hard to, to know what to do with that time. You can't really structure. You can't

[00:18:55] really plan it. A lot of these things is about just being able to just pose the questions repeatedly.

[00:19:01] But, but the, the, the big turning point really was when the doctor said, Oh,

[00:19:05] you have days left. And I think that's when things change because with such a finite amount of time,

[00:19:12] even my dad was able to recognize, Oh wait, maybe there are things I want to get off my chest.

[00:19:18] Maybe there are apologies. I want to, I want to give, maybe there are questions he has

[00:19:22] of me that, uh, he had never posed before. So I think that, that, that, that level of urgency

[00:19:28] is what also, uh, kickstarts the conversation. And, but I think a lot of the legwork was building

[00:19:36] everything up to that. And, uh, there was a really beautiful concept that I unfortunately don't like,

[00:19:44] but accept. And it came up in the conversation that you had on stage about masculinity. It's

[00:19:48] this idea of vulnerability and reciprocity. And, uh, very early on, I known again, as a,

[00:19:55] as a director that oftentimes to kind of get through to an actor who has to be vulnerable

[00:20:01] and share their deepest and darkest feelings, positive and negative on camera in front of a

[00:20:06] crew of 150 people or so, uh, the best technique was to open yourself up to them, which means, uh,

[00:20:14] sharing your personal insecurities, your personal journey and stories hardship, because at the end of

[00:20:20] the day on screen, you want real drama, right? And, and for actors to trust you, you have to open up

[00:20:27] to them first so that then they can share their personal stories to me. Cause in a professional

[00:20:32] setting, I mean, I find that film and TV is so bizarre and like, how can you in any normal

[00:20:38] circumstance so willingly devolve your personal deepest and darkest secrets, uh, in front of our,

[00:20:45] in front of our work? I mean, I can't even imagine besides being a therapist that there's any particular

[00:20:51] scenario that, that that happens, but that's one of the requisites of being a director. So I learned that

[00:20:56] tool very quickly. So when that applies to my father, what I had done is open up, shared about my story

[00:21:04] coming out, uh, some of the difficulties that I had, um, uh, coming out to my parents. Uh, I was,

[00:21:11] for my story, it was actually quite accidental. They, uh, my dad had discovered in some way and he

[00:21:17] challenged me, uh, on, on, on a car ride back from New Year's Eve when I expressed to my friend that I had

[00:21:23] a crush on, on a guy and, you know, that trauma really stayed with me. And because of how distant

[00:21:31] they were not quite open at the time, uh, I had left, I fled, I went to Paris and I stayed there

[00:21:38] for, for almost, almost a decade. And so when I was able to kind of express to him, you know, some of

[00:21:44] the challenges I had faced, um, how I, how I overcame them, some challenges I could not overcome

[00:21:50] and how I wished I had built and I, uh, had built up a, uh, a dialogue with my father.

[00:21:57] So he could also give me some of his experiences. Um, he was able to then understand, right? Uh,

[00:22:05] Justin is divulging all this information. He's sharing his personal stories of what he wants,

[00:22:11] being vulnerable, which is being vulnerable. And then that was the turning point was then when he was

[00:22:16] able to say, ah, okay. Now that I've heard all this stuff, perhaps it's, this is very common of

[00:22:23] many immigrants and of that culture, not to really share so much that once that happened,

[00:22:28] he was able to see the possibility of like, oh, what if I were to express these things? Then the

[00:22:34] conversation took and really opened up. It still took some time and requires a lot of persistence,

[00:22:39] but he was able to say when I wasn't, when I was growing up, like, honestly, in my entire life,

[00:22:45] in my entire life, I would never even hear the phrase when I was growing up and it would never,

[00:22:50] and, and, and, and start with, with a certain anecdote. Yeah. He'd talk about vague, you know,

[00:22:57] pictures of what it was like, the hardships, but it was never specific. It was never,

[00:23:02] there was never one. He never really let you in. He never really let me in. And I think that that,

[00:23:07] did you hold resentment to him for that? Of course. You know, um, the other challenge of being,

[00:23:12] you know, uh, being raised in Canada is, which is the beauty of it all is that you have all these

[00:23:17] diverse voices and, and, and characters and personalities and individuals and people that

[00:23:24] are here. And very typical of Western culture is to be open and share, uh, especially when it comes to

[00:23:30] as silly as things like show and tell in high school or in elementary school.

[00:23:35] And my, of course your, your friends, parents would ask, uh, native to Canada, like, oh,

[00:23:41] so what are your parents like? And so it was very, very difficult for me to answer. And there was a lot

[00:23:46] of guilt and shame to say, like, I really don't know. I really don't know what my parents are like.

[00:23:51] I can tell you what they're like with me, but I don't know the history. I don't know the past. And, um,

[00:23:56] um, as I've shared before, a lot of these immigrants have such deep trauma that they try to push through.

[00:24:03] And the way, the way that they cope is to bury it is to shield you from it so that, and the aspiration

[00:24:10] is, is justifiable. They're trying to do it so that kids don't have to necessarily feel what they feel,

[00:24:17] what they felt or have to endure what they had to kind of deal with. Um, so that I would say is

[00:24:24] one of the hardships I do regret. And I do had, I did, I did have a lot of resentment against my

[00:24:29] parents, but after, again, I shared my vulnerability with the idea of reciprocity, uh, and was very

[00:24:35] persistent and open, constantly sharing more stories of things I'd done good and bad in Paris or in Europe.

[00:24:43] Um, and questions I, I had during that journey that I wished he was able to answer. And so retroactively,

[00:24:52] what I've done was also pose questions like, you know, do you remember that year in 2016 when I,

[00:24:58] you know, when this happened, my parents would only know the superficial details of like,

[00:25:01] I was in Berlin doing an exhibition, but they didn't know why I was doing it. They didn't know

[00:25:06] what I was, I was inspired by. And then I would pose a question present with my father. Then I was like,

[00:25:12] well, what are your thoughts about this? You know, that there, that there was an exhibition I did

[00:25:17] about identity, about culture. And I just reversed the question like, oh, it would have been great if I

[00:25:22] had some consultation here at some of your experience, you know, what, what did you,

[00:25:26] how would you've experienced my, my exhibition? And again, just giving like a, a peak, giving it an,

[00:25:31] uh, an opening, a safe space for them to share. And that's when I really kind of started to kind of

[00:25:38] break through. And I think that that was, I would say the most meaningful use of my time with,

[00:25:44] uh, uh, uh, with my, the remaining days. And to really go back to your first question of like, um,

[00:25:52] how did I use those days? I think that once you have that urgency, then it becomes more and more

[00:26:00] structured because my dad's very cognizant that like, okay, nine days left. So here is what he wants

[00:26:07] to get off his chest eight days left. You know, you pose more questions and it would just inspire him

[00:26:12] to get and start a whole different conversation. And then eventually it was a point where by,

[00:26:18] by near his last days schedule days, I mean, this is what the doctor said, right?

[00:26:23] I was able to then open up and finally record some of the stuff. And he was able to give me a monologue

[00:26:29] and just express his truth. And I would just post questions almost like a, like a, like a documentarian,

[00:26:33] but not just the best of his life. Some of the worst parts of life, his own personal regrets.

[00:26:40] So I think that that was great. And then what happens after? So as you said, my dad had even

[00:26:46] more time and I actually turn it around and say, that was actually the best part of my life because

[00:26:54] every day became an opportunity. You're like another day. I mean, okay. So then I was able to

[00:26:59] kind of review my notes and continue with my questions. It's like, okay, let's continue down

[00:27:04] this path much like how we're going deeper. It's like you have the opportunity to just go one step

[00:27:12] further, ask another question. Now, the end result was that funny, funny enough is with all the time,

[00:27:19] bonus time we had, I really treat every day as a precious day with him, but by the end, we actually

[00:27:24] hit a wall and it was actually beautiful in some way that he was like, and this is where the

[00:27:30] conversation ends. He told me very explicitly, this is as far as I would go. I'm not willing to

[00:27:35] share anymore. I've shared as much as I feel comfortable sharing. And this is what you ought to live with.

[00:27:42] And I, I genuinely respected that. We all have our own secrets. We all gave me goosebumps.

[00:27:46] Yeah. The notion, the notion that, you know, we all have limits, but I was so happy, genuinely happy

[00:27:57] with no resentment that I was able to kind of get to that point that he shared his entire life story

[00:28:02] as much as he thought he could. And he told me respectfully what his limits were. And I don't know

[00:28:10] there's any better way for me to know him, you know, as such. And I really hope that people can

[00:28:17] take that opportunity. So what's, I feel that the lesson to be gained here is that don't let, or try

[00:28:23] not to let things that are so urgent, you know, a life and death stakes ticking time bomb of like

[00:28:29] a doctor telling you, you have 10 days left to start that process. And I think, I don't know,

[00:28:35] I think the, in retrospect, the one thing I would have done very early on is to be persistent and open

[00:28:42] up. I think there's this, again, back to this idea that like, well, if my dad doesn't open up,

[00:28:48] why would I open up? Right. But I, I, I just feel that, um, you know, your parents should not be there

[00:28:54] to judge you. They should really be there to listen and support you. And I'm not saying this is,

[00:28:59] this is the case for all parents, but you know, if you, if you trust them to, uh, have your back

[00:29:06] or want the best for you, giving them some of your personal stories and, and, and, and sharing some

[00:29:12] of your, your, of your vulnerabilities and stories would hopefully, uh, uh, allow them to maybe

[00:29:21] start sharing with you before it's too late to us. Envy is a good thing. It motivates us in the

[00:29:28] pursuit of better. Like crafting a bourbon, even the angels would envy. Angels envy worth the envy.

[00:29:40] Wow. Um, what an incredible opportunity that you got at the, at the end there to have that moment with

[00:29:47] your father. You, you talked about having to, on the idea of reciprocity, having to share and be

[00:29:56] first to share with the actors that you work with. Um, tell me more about like your career.

[00:30:04] You said only four to five years. It's only four to five years. I feel like it's been so much longer.

[00:30:09] No, but that's, and like, I, I, I had to remind myself that that's where again, right, right now,

[00:30:13] as I'm sitting here talking to you, I, again, the imposter syndrome hits again, right? It's, it's,

[00:30:18] it's like a constant wave and that you have to just go through. Yeah. It's only been less than five

[00:30:25] years. Wow. And you're, you've worked now on a feature film. Um, tell me about that journey because

[00:30:36] that I think is one really definitive way to stump imposter syndrome whenever it creeps up.

[00:30:43] Yeah. Uh, it's the ultimate dream come true. I, I mean, I just from what I remember so vividly when

[00:30:52] I was like, I think eight years old or so, uh, sneaking in watching Jurassic park and my cousins

[00:30:57] in the basement. Um, cause obviously I was way too young to be able to watch a movie like that.

[00:31:04] I don't know. It just really piqued my interest. And I had this dream for the longest time that I

[00:31:10] want to be the person who did that. And, you know, coming back to this, this project, um,

[00:31:16] so much of the, the, the process was unbelievable. It's a lot of firsts. I mean, it's, it's a project

[00:31:23] of firsts, right? You first time a studio calls you first time a network calls you first time a

[00:31:28] producer calls you and gives you a script, you know, for all the, for some, to give some context,

[00:31:33] when you're in TV, uh, oftentimes they look at your body of work. They would hire you, uh, based upon

[00:31:40] your skillset, but I, I'd have no scripts to read here. It's a whole different process.

[00:31:47] The process begins with them giving you first, of course, uh, reviewing your body of work to see

[00:31:52] whether you are the right fit approximately vaguely. Um, then they would give you the private script for

[00:31:57] you to read, you'd read the script, you digest it. And then they would ask you what's your take on it.

[00:32:04] Right? So that was a first for me. It was, it was a first word because you had to then express

[00:32:09] how you interpret it. And this is something that has never happened. That never happens in, in,

[00:32:14] in, in TV specifically, because in TV, you have something called a showrunner. A showrunner is

[00:32:19] the one, the visionary behind the show. And it's oftentimes that they dictate to you,

[00:32:23] uh, what their vision is. And then yes, there is an opportunity for you to, uh, go back to them.

[00:32:30] And you are an artist, you're a respected artist, and you still have to give them how you interpret

[00:32:35] it, but it's still very much someone else's vision. In this particular case, you are the

[00:32:39] visionary. They've given you the, the script is just a blueprint, but you have to take it upon yourself to

[00:32:45] imbue your own personality, your own identity into the piece. And whether you connect with it or you

[00:32:51] don't connect with it, where you can add, where you feel can be enhanced or taken back. And so I think

[00:32:57] that, that, that first experience was just so unbelievable. I remember I, I, I even teared up

[00:33:04] actually after I made the pitch. So in the process, you take the script and they ask you to give us a pitch.

[00:33:11] Tell us how you see the scene. How do you paint the scene? What are the characters like? Who do you envision

[00:33:17] being part of it? Right? So there's no actors at that point. No actors, no actors.

[00:33:20] It's just purely a thought, right? Here is just a blank slate and a blueprint of the scripts that they,

[00:33:27] there were no actors where they tied to it. Now, arguably this particular one,

[00:33:30] the lead actor was, is also one of the executive producers. His name is Noah Beck.

[00:33:35] Oh, I didn't know he was the producer. Yeah. He was one of the EPs who actually

[00:33:39] helped originate the story. And so he was very part of the, the very first conversation. So I knew he was

[00:33:45] part of it, but there are so many characters in the story. I mean, you also have the lead,

[00:33:49] the girl who is the protagonist and we had, we didn't, we hadn't cast her at that point,

[00:33:54] right? It was the first steps are going to get a director so that the director can also take charge

[00:33:58] with the studio to kind of figure out and find all the other pieces. Yeah. And it was just truly

[00:34:04] unbelievable that I was just talking to these studio executives and sharing my thoughts of like how it's done

[00:34:16] and yeah, I was like, you know, months, weeks would pass. Nothing would really happen, you know?

[00:34:20] And then you get the calls like we want you. That's step one. We want to attach you to the project.

[00:34:27] I'm like, okay, well that sure. Right. I mean, and, and, and I'm, I'm always very cognizant of this

[00:34:33] idea of Hollywood talk, this, this, this idea that they, it's all smoke and mirrors. Uh, it's all like

[00:34:40] through back channeling until you're on set. I was like, sure, whatever. Right. Even signing a piece

[00:34:46] of paper showing your intent doesn't really mean much. I feel. And I, and I have been on commercials

[00:34:52] where you get booked for the job. You're supposed to fly to Tokyo. And then one day, 24 hours prior,

[00:34:58] they canceled the entire thing. So I, I've been through enough rejection that I, I know so consciously,

[00:35:05] uh, what it feels like to have the rug pulled underneath you. So many times a little bit.

[00:35:10] I reserve myself. I, I, I create this kind of shield. I make sure that I don't get too invested

[00:35:16] in something before I get disappointed. Right. But that was the first step. Then,

[00:35:21] then you go into casting, then you get the cast, you meet with the cast. And can we just list out

[00:35:27] the cast just for, for, for people to understand the magnitude of this film? Sure. And even that,

[00:35:33] even that alone is also kind of a story. Um, so we have our wonderful lead, Noah Beck, who's the,

[00:35:40] romantic interest. Um, the lead of the film, her name is Sienna Agudong, who I fought for. Uh, she's an

[00:35:46] incredible young actress, actor, who was the lead of Resident Evil, uh, a TV show on Netflix. And just

[00:35:56] seeing her watching her on camera, she just, she just sings like she has so much to express.

[00:36:04] Other characters, other actors that I never thought I would ever be able to work with,

[00:36:09] especially on my first feature include the likes of James Van Der Beek.

[00:36:15] Dawson's Creek. Dawson's Creek.

[00:36:16] Rossity Blues. Yeah.

[00:36:17] Debra Cox, the legendary Canadian Debra Cox singer. Uh, and other, you know, uh, friends who I've made

[00:36:27] of throughout my career and who I also admire like Drew Ray Tanner from, from Riverdale and so much more.

[00:36:33] You know, these are just like the characters. These are the, the actors that we had. And I

[00:36:37] really felt like, no, I can't believe this is actually happening on my first feature.

[00:36:42] This is unbelievable. Right. But you know, oftentimes again, back to the whole same technique,

[00:36:49] I would just look at the wall, look at my placards and remind myself I've earned this to ground me.

[00:36:57] I even have a photo of it so that anytime I feel this imposter syndrome, I would just pull it up and

[00:37:02] like, yeah, no, I earned this. I took all the different steps. I didn't jump in. I didn't cheat

[00:37:05] the system. I did the work. Right. And then now that the actors were there and to go through the

[00:37:12] table read, uh, that was even that alone. I remember I completely blacked out. I, I just couldn't believe,

[00:37:18] I had to take a moment to just absorb what was happening in front of me. Now the table read had to be on

[00:37:24] zoom because the actors were all across the country internationally. Um, and just to see their faces,

[00:37:32] read the words and having them interact and be being in the corner. Uh, uh,

[00:37:39] Katie story. Yeah. I was like, I really can't believe this. I really, I really felt like it was the,

[00:37:45] I was punching myself. I was actually underneath the table grabbing and pinching myself. Like,

[00:37:51] is this really happening? And, but we pass that phase and then, then comes a real fun part where

[00:37:58] you meet the actors in person and, you know, kind of tie it all together. The first thing you do is,

[00:38:04] of course you do the whole introduction and whatnot. Um, and they ask, they, they interview you the same

[00:38:11] way I had to interview them right during the casting processes, what tied you to the project. And

[00:38:16] that's where I think, um, I real, real connections are made, you know, real trust is made real bonding

[00:38:22] is made because that question is very kind of a quite loaded question. Like what, what, what brought

[00:38:26] you to the project? And often it really is personal trauma that you had to share with them. It's like,

[00:38:32] Oh, there's a scene in the film that, or the character arc is very similar to mine. And this is not

[00:38:39] confidential. The, uh, the story is really about, uh, this girl aspiring dancer who wants to follow in

[00:38:47] her late mother's footsteps to become a star dancer, following her late mother's alma mater. And that

[00:38:52] journey is so similar to mine. And that, I mean, that's a very obvious one, you know, chase after your

[00:38:57] dreams, which is a very big theme of the film. But within that is also, you know, uh, different aspects

[00:39:05] of the film touches on a bit, a bit of grief, but of acceptance. And of course, romance, you know,

[00:39:11] the romance part is something that we can all relate to. We all know the feeling is like to fall in love

[00:39:16] for the very first time, which is great. Excitement, that excitement, exactly. All that, all the sparks.

[00:39:21] Yeah. Um, but you know, that's, that's the obvious one. And that's that, that's kind of through

[00:39:26] a line of it all. But you know what I have also discovered, which is so beautiful, especially with,

[00:39:31] with the newer films is that romance happens when people are vulnerable with each other.

[00:39:38] Right? You have the very superficial first date, the first dates about, do we have a spark? Do we

[00:39:43] have a connection? And often the spark really happens when someone shows you a side of them

[00:39:49] that's unexpected. That's like, ah, first, you know, I feel like you just showed me a private

[00:39:55] version of you just for me. Yeah, precisely. Right. You've given me a peek, like you can leave me on,

[00:40:01] on, on, in today's world, you got Tinder, you got the profile picture, you got some of the vague

[00:40:05] interests, but to have the conversation and realize, wow, like they re they have, they have this whole

[00:40:13] other side of them that a profile photo and some descriptors is didn't express. And that's when

[00:40:19] you really get charmed by them. Right? Yeah. So that's, that's the easy part. But I think

[00:40:23] much of the conversation when it comes to these prolific actors is to know,

[00:40:28] are you able to understand and lead the, the whole journey and especially the tougher parts? Because

[00:40:36] you know, the tougher scenes that you know you're going to have to face. And this is something that

[00:40:41] we always talk to discuss when it comes to planning a film is that where are we going to, where do we

[00:40:46] put in the schedule? The most challenging scenes, the scenes where you deal with loss, the scenes where

[00:40:51] you have the breakup or, or, you know, the emotional scenes that require that take a lot out of the

[00:40:56] actor. Right. And so they challenge you as much as you challenge them about what do you, do you as

[00:41:02] a director, Justin actually understand this and, and why do you understand it? So very early on,

[00:41:08] almost like therapy, you're just divulging your own personal insecurities and your own,

[00:41:12] your own anecdotes of like, I've dealt with losing someone like my father. I've dealt with failing at,

[00:41:20] you know, in photography, I remember having my portfolio thrown in the trash and saying my work

[00:41:26] is complete garbage and I have no future in the business. I remember all those different aspects

[00:41:30] and to, to, to express it to them and then reverse it and ask, ask of them too, even though they're,

[00:41:37] they're prolific actors. I need to also make sure as a director that I know what they're drawing from.

[00:41:42] Um, privately before expressing it to the rest of the cast and crew. It's like,

[00:41:46] so where was your interest in this? I don't know. I think, I think those early conversations,

[00:41:52] especially with people like Deborah Cox, who I just met, uh, in Toronto, no less than a year ago,

[00:41:59] two years ago at the Junos. So after the Junos, she performed on stage. I of course know her. We

[00:42:06] know her as his legendary, um, personality and talent, you know, this icon of Canada. Um,

[00:42:14] the spark just, it, it, it just hit me somehow in mid performance that, uh, I know her life story

[00:42:20] from what I read, but I was so curious to see, could she play this role? So after the Junos happened,

[00:42:26] I just found my way through a friend of mine, uh, at Sony to meet her, discuss, get a contact,

[00:42:34] then have lunch with her. And then it just, that I think was the very first, uh, step when I realized

[00:42:41] that I'm now earned this position to be able to have those conversations. Yeah. You're taking the

[00:42:46] reins at this point and making it happen. Yeah. So how long, what was the, the total time spent

[00:42:52] making this film? I would say the, the Genesis was about two years ago. Okay. Two years ago,

[00:42:59] uh, there was a script that was laid upon me and I was attached to the project. And that, that,

[00:43:03] that process took, as I mentioned, it takes, takes some time, but once you're attached to the project,

[00:43:08] then they have to find the financing. And then they go through the whole, go through the whole

[00:43:11] role and there was a financial crisis. Then the strike happened. So, uh, the film was supposed to

[00:43:17] be ready to film a year and a half ago, but through various iterations,

[00:43:22] uh, deal making, we finally landed. And so it's, so it's a, took two years to kind of get the,

[00:43:28] the project financed, but then the actual project only a few months. Wow. And it's fast. It's really

[00:43:35] fast. It happens quick. It happens really fast. I think that the, to give some, some context,

[00:43:40] uh, around February ish, we're given the green light. And then by April you're flown in

[00:43:49] to, to the location. And for us, it was Victoria, BC to begin location scouting and very rapidly.

[00:43:55] You're like, you got a certain number of weeks, maybe two, three weeks. Now you have to hire

[00:44:01] everyone. You have to build up the crew, find the locations. Uh, and then the team starts assembling.

[00:44:07] Yeah. Rehearsals begin, uh, final casting for all the supporting characters come in and then you're on

[00:44:13] set for what feels like a minute, but it's, when did you wrap up? We wrapped, I believe

[00:44:23] so hazy now, like July. I mean, I mean, and film premieres,

[00:44:28] film premieres this fall. This fall. Okay. I can't, I can't give the dates yet. No,

[00:44:35] that's good. That's fine. Um, I gotta ask you like this incredible journey of yours from

[00:44:41] where you started hearing, you'd say, for example, like your photography stuff got tossed

[00:44:45] in the garbage. I'm like, I can't believe there are jerks out there like that. But, um,

[00:44:50] this incredible, inspiring journey from where you started to finally landing the feature film,

[00:44:57] working on it, you know, knocking imposter syndrome out the door and keeping it at bay.

[00:45:04] I gotta ask you one more question here. If you could sit down for one more conversation with your dad

[00:45:13] and show him everything that you've done to this point, what would you hope his reaction would be?

[00:45:22] Well, the obvious one would be pride. I think that, um, that's, I would say the,

[00:45:29] I wouldn't, I wouldn't call this a failure because I really feel that, uh, it's, it's a false

[00:45:34] expectation that anyone can achieve the dream and present it to the parents in their lifetime. I think

[00:45:38] that's the, that's always the aspiration. I would say that, that I know I've made it. You know,

[00:45:45] I think the, the hardest part that really always hits me really hard is the fact that my father had

[00:45:51] felt and seen me go on this perilous journey with seemingly no hope, all these rejections. And it's

[00:45:59] not as if all this time it was a smooth path to kind of get here. I may have broken into film and

[00:46:06] TV five years ago and now I'm making a movie, but people often forget that it's taken more than a decade

[00:46:13] for, for me to break into the industry. And my dad was, was very observant. Uh, he saw it all. He saw me,

[00:46:22] um, live in this really crummy apartment in Paris, living with two or three roommates while I was in LA

[00:46:31] and just struggle living on couches. And he never saw me succeed. And I think that that probably would

[00:46:39] be the, uh, uh, the thing I would love to do for him is to be able to tell him I'm all right and I've

[00:46:47] made it. And I think that that would open a whole other conversation. I feel, you know, a lot of what he

[00:46:54] shared was a lot of the difficulties had and some of his success, but you know, I would have loved to

[00:47:00] have that father, son bonding moment for us to feel like, you know, we're on the right path. And I,

[00:47:07] and I really would have felt that, and I, certainly would believe that that would have opened up a whole

[00:47:13] different life that we would have had together. That's amazing. And, um, and funny enough, actually,

[00:47:19] I'll just one, one short anecdote is that that one beat exists in my film vaguely. I can't, I won't

[00:47:29] talk specifics, but like, you know, I just had the best relationship working with James Rennie because

[00:47:36] the father, and he became this kind of like surrogate father for me on a moment because,

[00:47:41] you know, you know, before we talked about one particular scene, we just spent time together

[00:47:46] discussing in detail, um, how we're planning to express it. And, and then I, I, I, I'll tell you

[00:47:56] this. There was one scene that we had, uh, and while it was performing, I could see my father and I broke

[00:48:06] down in tears. The assistant director broke down in tears. So did the producer. And at the end,

[00:48:12] I, I, I, I was choking with so much. I couldn't even call cut. My assistant director had to call cut

[00:48:17] for me. And, and I just went up to James and I gave him a hug and he was asking, Justin, are you okay?

[00:48:24] And I said, I'm fine, but, but thank you. Thank you for, for, for being there and for expressing that

[00:48:32] particular truth. A moment that I never had, but I felt that that could have been what it could have

[00:48:39] been like. And yeah, that's beautiful. And that's that, and that scene still, and it will always

[00:48:47] be one of my, my cherished memories on the set. I can't wait to watch it. Justin, thank you so much.

[00:48:52] Thank you so much for sharing this journey. Um, the lessons, it's all incredible. Uh, congratulations on

[00:48:59] the film. Congratulations on all that you're doing. It's so exciting. I can't wait to celebrate

[00:49:04] the film for you, with you and in support of you and everything. Um, thank you so much for coming

[00:49:10] through. Thank you of course, to our friends at angels envy for making this episode happen.

[00:49:17] Can't do it without them. And thank you to everyone for watching and listening. We appreciate you, but

[00:49:23] Justin, one final thing. Just thank you. No, thank you so much. And the film comes out.

[00:49:29] This fall on TV. Okay. There you go. Make sure you tune in everybody. Thank you so much.

[00:49:35] Justin. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Thank you for tuning into this week's episode of the

[00:49:40] Gents Talk podcast. I'm your host, Samir Marani. And as you know, we just sat down with Justin Wu,

[00:49:47] an incredible award-winning director, photographer, and creative. I'd like to take a moment to recap what

[00:49:55] we discussed in a quick episode reflection brought to you by our friends here at angels envy Canada's

[00:50:02] number one super premium bourbon. It was an incredible conversation with Justin talking about

[00:50:08] identity relationship with his father. And that one in particular struck me quite profoundly. It's a,

[00:50:15] it's always an interesting subject when you hear men talk about the relationships they have with their

[00:50:19] father. And in Justin's case, talking about how he knew he had such a finite amount of time before,

[00:50:25] you know, that relationship would no longer exist. And the steps that he took to try and

[00:50:31] make amends and to build a real meaningful relationship with his father was incredible to

[00:50:36] see. And I think it, it's a nice reminder for all of the gents out there and for anyone in general,

[00:50:42] really make an attempt to build that relationship with your loved ones, because you really don't know

[00:50:49] how long you have with each of them. And now if I can ask you one favor, no matter where you're

[00:50:57] watching this, listening to this, please like, follow, subscribe, rate the episode. Your support

[00:51:04] means the world to us. None of what we do can happen if it's not for these interactions that you do.

[00:51:10] So thank you for all that you do to support this amazing podcast. It allows us to bring in incredible

[00:51:16] guests every week. Thank you for doing what you do. Thank you to our friends again at Angel's Envy

[00:51:22] for helping us to put this episode together. Cheers.