#1 Reason People Stay in Unhappy Relationships: Dr. Jess O'Reilly | Ep.122 - Gent's Talk

[00:00:00] We do know that happy relationships are the cornerstone of a happy life. Most relationships that I see, they can be repaired, but...

[00:00:09] Dr. Jess is an award-winning sexologist, best-selling author, public speaker, and Tinder's dating and relationship expert...

[00:00:18] ...who specializes in hosting retreats for business leaders and entrepreneurs across the globe.

[00:00:22] You may take insecurity or jealousy as some sort of a label or an accusation, but these are temporary experiences.

[00:00:29] If you're feeling jealous, the first step is...

[00:00:31] Dr. Jess OReilly Why do people stay in relationships if they're unhappy?

[00:00:36] Dr. Jess OReilly Sometimes it has to do with stigma and social pressure.

[00:00:39] The idea of breaking up is seen as a failure, whereas the idea of staying together is a success.

[00:00:44] Dr. Jess OReilly We have to stop measuring relationships in longevity and measure them in quality.

[00:00:49] Is it a great relationship because you've been together 20 years or is it a great relationship because you love life together?

[00:00:55] Dr. Jess OReilly This aspiration for the perfect relationship.

[00:00:58] Dr. Jess OReilly What does that look like?

[00:01:00] Dr. Jess OReilly So...

[00:01:01] Dr. Jess OReilly It like fluctuates.

[00:01:25] Dr. Jess OReilly Sometimes the US audience is higher, sometimes it's Canadian, just also really depends on the guest.

[00:01:30] Dr. Jess OReilly I'm sure, yeah, of course.

[00:01:31] Dr. Jess OReilly So we're trying to do some experiments where we go to different US cities.

[00:01:35] We did it last summer, we went to Miami.

[00:01:36] Dr. Jess OReilly Okay.

[00:01:37] Dr. Jess OReilly And it turned out really, really well.

[00:01:38] And so we're going to be doing something in LA a little later this year, which we're really excited about.

[00:01:44] But Jess, welcome to episode number three together.

[00:01:48] Dr. Jess OReilly You haven't done anything since the last time I was here.

[00:01:51] Dr. Jess OReilly This is it.

[00:01:52] Dr. Jess OReilly This is three.

[00:01:52] Dr. Jess OReilly This is three.

[00:01:52] Dr. Jess OReilly I just take a break until you come back on the podcast.

[00:01:56] Dr. Jess OReilly I'm glad you had a good rest.

[00:01:56] Dr. Jess OReilly When are you in Toronto?

[00:01:59] Dr. Jess OReilly But since we last talked, you're talked.

[00:02:02] You're now Tinder's dating and relationship expert.

[00:02:05] Dr. Jess OReilly That's right.

[00:02:05] Dr. Jess OReilly Congrats on that.

[00:02:06] Dr. Jess OReilly Thank you.

[00:02:07] Dr. Jess OReilly And we actually saw each other in New York at a Tinder event,

[00:02:10] which was really cool.

[00:02:11] Dr. Jess OReilly Yes.

[00:02:12] Dr. Jess OReilly And it was just so funny running into you.

[00:02:13] I walked into the restaurant and I'm like, I know you.

[00:02:17] Yes, yes. Familiar faces.

[00:02:18] And you were doing big things that week too in your personal life.

[00:02:21] Yes, yes.

[00:02:22] I was doing a lot of running around in the city there.

[00:02:25] But I'm excited to have this conversation as always

[00:02:28] because every time we talk I walk away learning so much from you

[00:02:32] which is why I always want you to just come back on.

[00:02:35] But I wanted to chat about a few topics, particularly in dating.

[00:02:40] I know you and I had a chat briefly offline here.

[00:02:44] We were talking about how people show up when they go on dates.

[00:02:48] This idea and this concept of wanting to be as authentic as they possibly can

[00:02:55] because that's the new thing.

[00:02:56] Let's be authentic. Let's be ourselves.

[00:02:58] We're all imperfect.

[00:02:59] And it's nice to do that.

[00:03:01] But in practice, even I mean, I say it all the time.

[00:03:03] But in practice, sometimes I know that I put on a facade.

[00:03:06] I show up a certain way.

[00:03:07] So my behavior doesn't always match my intentions.

[00:03:12] I'm wondering, at least from where you're sitting,

[00:03:15] what you're seeing in the dating space when it comes to how...

[00:03:19] And I don't know if this changes between Gen Z, Millennials, etc.

[00:03:23] But what you're seeing.

[00:03:24] Yeah, there is a generational gap in terms of what we say versus what we do.

[00:03:31] So here's what I'm seeing with Gen Z.

[00:03:33] Totally unscientific, not empirical data.

[00:03:35] And then we can talk about what the data says.

[00:03:38] So I'm seeing Gen Z and very, very younger millennial daters

[00:03:46] basically aiming for perfectionism, right?

[00:03:48] Trying to make every relationship as perfect as possible.

[00:03:52] So I was talking to a student the other day,

[00:03:53] and she's just starting her master's.

[00:03:55] So she's probably 24 or so, 23.

[00:03:58] And she was saying, she's like, every student here is so horny,

[00:04:02] and they're looking for a life partner, right?

[00:04:04] And they're very intentional about it.

[00:04:06] And if things don't seem to be jiving,

[00:04:08] they're trying to make it jive nonetheless.

[00:04:11] Like, they want the relationship.

[00:04:12] They want the relationship to be great.

[00:04:14] It seems to be that they're embracing relationship goals, right?

[00:04:19] They want that trophy relationship.

[00:04:21] So there's still, there's stigma associated with being single,

[00:04:24] which is completely unfounded, of course.

[00:04:26] But there's this pressure and this move toward perfectionism.

[00:04:30] And years ago, maybe two years ago,

[00:04:32] I had interviewed a therapist in New York,

[00:04:35] and she was saying that she was seeing this.

[00:04:37] She actually saw this far before I did,

[00:04:38] where they'd come to her,

[00:04:40] and they'd been dating one month, two months, three months,

[00:04:43] and they wanted relationship therapy.

[00:04:46] So clearly things are not a fit,

[00:04:48] but they're saying, I've received the message

[00:04:50] that I can make anything work,

[00:04:52] that self-help, that relational help,

[00:04:54] that if I put the effort in,

[00:04:57] I can have what I want, which is this relationship.

[00:05:00] So they're taking this, you know, square,

[00:05:02] and they're trying to shove it into a circular hole,

[00:05:05] and they're saying, I can make this work.

[00:05:07] If I put the effort in, I'm fully capable.

[00:05:09] So I don't know if it's a degree of overconfidence,

[00:05:14] maybe even a little bit of entitlement,

[00:05:16] maybe pressure, right?

[00:05:18] Pressure to be in a relationship,

[00:05:19] and not just pressure to be in a relationship,

[00:05:21] but to be thriving in a relationship.

[00:05:24] So that's sort of what I'm seeing now

[00:05:26] with Gen Z, Gen Z.

[00:05:29] But it's interesting because as Tinder's expert,

[00:05:32] I get access to their data,

[00:05:33] and what they're reporting is sort of the opposite,

[00:05:37] whereby Gen Z daters,

[00:05:39] should I say Gen Z or Gen Z?

[00:05:41] I don't think it matters.

[00:05:42] I mean, I say Gen Z.

[00:05:44] Okay, Gen Z daters are actually looking for authenticity.

[00:05:47] So imperfection is welcomed.

[00:05:50] Vulnerability is welcomed.

[00:05:52] Talking about kind of deep feelings and topics is welcomed,

[00:05:55] rather than that performative side that I'm seeing.

[00:05:58] So there is this tension between maybe intent and behavior,

[00:06:01] or what we believe we want

[00:06:04] versus what we're actually enacting.

[00:06:05] And it's exactly what you described, right?

[00:06:07] I want to go on a date and be myself, be in the moment, enjoy myself.

[00:06:11] But instead, I'm performing because there's a natural inclination

[00:06:14] to want to be liked, right?

[00:06:16] And so you're in the public eye.

[00:06:18] You work in a space where people are seeing you,

[00:06:20] and they want to see all of you.

[00:06:22] But the reality is,

[00:06:23] you're not going to show a million people, all of you, right?

[00:06:26] That is reserved probably for your closest circle.

[00:06:29] Absolutely, yeah.

[00:06:30] And when you go on a date, they're not yet inner circle.

[00:06:33] Yeah.

[00:06:33] So there's a balance.

[00:06:34] And I also think that there's a bit of rushing through vulnerability.

[00:06:38] So when we develop intimacy,

[00:06:41] yes, it can stem from vulnerability,

[00:06:43] but time is also required

[00:06:45] because you have to develop trust.

[00:06:47] Simply asking deep questions

[00:06:48] about people's greatest fears or vulnerabilities

[00:06:50] doesn't necessarily generate interpersonal closeness on the spot.

[00:06:54] And I think that there's been some overstating of research in that area.

[00:06:59] You probably heard of,

[00:06:59] do you remember the Aaron and Aaron studies,

[00:07:01] 36 questions to fall in love with anybody?

[00:07:03] Yeah.

[00:07:03] And so the intention, of course,

[00:07:05] was if you ask these meaningful questions,

[00:07:07] you will generate interpersonal closeness.

[00:07:10] And then these people ended up,

[00:07:12] two of the lab rat humans ended up getting married.

[00:07:14] And so people think,

[00:07:15] if I ask deep questions, I will know you.

[00:07:17] But you can't rush time.

[00:07:19] You can't not make a week or a month longer than that.

[00:07:24] A week is a week, a month is a month.

[00:07:25] And that's how long you've known a person.

[00:07:26] So it does take time.

[00:07:28] And I don't think we can falsify that.

[00:07:30] Yeah, I would agree with that.

[00:07:31] I don't think you can rush it.

[00:07:33] As you were talking,

[00:07:35] I was thinking about when I met Mila,

[00:07:38] we met during the pandemic.

[00:07:40] And while we couldn't necessarily rush time,

[00:07:42] it felt like our relationship jumped in time

[00:07:44] because we spent more quality time together.

[00:07:48] Whereas, you know,

[00:07:49] if we were to meet today,

[00:07:50] it would be,

[00:07:51] hey, are you free Thursday after 6 p.m.

[00:07:54] for two hours to go for a coffee or a walk or whatever?

[00:07:56] And then you don't see each other for a few more days.

[00:07:58] Whereas in the pandemic,

[00:07:59] we were spending hours together.

[00:08:01] So really expedited.

[00:08:02] But that was quality time

[00:08:04] where you can ask those questions.

[00:08:05] You can really dive into it.

[00:08:07] But I want to go back

[00:08:08] because you talked about

[00:08:10] this aspiration for the perfect relationship.

[00:08:13] How much of that is social media

[00:08:15] just playing a huge role?

[00:08:17] I see all of these TikTok couples,

[00:08:19] these Instagram couples

[00:08:21] who live the perfect life.

[00:08:22] They're always happy with each other.

[00:08:23] They're making funny videos.

[00:08:25] So you're like, wow,

[00:08:26] your entire life must be just a comedy skit.

[00:08:28] This looks great.

[00:08:29] You're posting about each other.

[00:08:31] You're constantly pumping each other up.

[00:08:33] I want that.

[00:08:35] I mean, I even sometimes will look at that and go,

[00:08:37] that looks pretty cool.

[00:08:38] I kind of want that.

[00:08:39] And then I'm like, wait a minute.

[00:08:40] I know what I'm watching.

[00:08:41] Right.

[00:08:42] How much of that is playing a role

[00:08:43] in how perhaps maybe Gen Z

[00:08:45] is starting to look at this?

[00:08:46] Because they've basically grown up on social media.

[00:08:50] I would actually suspect

[00:08:52] that Gen Z is less affected

[00:08:54] than other generations

[00:08:55] because it has always been there

[00:08:57] and they have an awareness

[00:08:59] of how this is a highlight reel.

[00:09:02] Right.

[00:09:02] I actually think it's oftentimes millennials

[00:09:04] and what comes before millennials,

[00:09:06] Gen X,

[00:09:07] who use social media

[00:09:10] in a more novel way

[00:09:12] because it's something

[00:09:13] that we didn't always have.

[00:09:15] Gen Z are the last to return texts.

[00:09:17] Right.

[00:09:17] Like they respond

[00:09:18] when they feel like responding.

[00:09:19] We always kind of accuse the younger generations

[00:09:21] of being the ones

[00:09:22] who are glued to their phones.

[00:09:23] But look at your feed

[00:09:25] and think about,

[00:09:26] it's the people a little bit older than us

[00:09:27] who are ranting on there,

[00:09:29] who are always on there,

[00:09:30] who reply to everything immediately.

[00:09:33] But I think we're all affected,

[00:09:34] obviously,

[00:09:34] regardless of age or generation.

[00:09:36] I think that if you're surrounded

[00:09:37] by all of these positive,

[00:09:40] but unrealistically positive models,

[00:09:44] you think,

[00:09:45] well, why don't I have that?

[00:09:46] Absolutely.

[00:09:47] And of course,

[00:09:47] I'm not the first to say it.

[00:09:48] People are posting their highlight reel.

[00:09:50] And then I think it's getting even worse

[00:09:52] because these,

[00:09:53] you know,

[00:09:53] happy TikTok couples

[00:09:54] who may very well be very happy,

[00:09:56] which is amazing.

[00:09:57] There's also performative imperfectionism,

[00:10:00] right?

[00:10:00] Well, imperfection.

[00:10:01] So there's also this performative imperfection

[00:10:03] where they're like,

[00:10:04] no, we have problems too, right?

[00:10:06] And then they make a joke of that.

[00:10:08] So their problems aren't even serious.

[00:10:09] And, you know,

[00:10:10] it's interesting.

[00:10:11] So I had a podcast

[00:10:12] and I've taken a little break from it

[00:10:14] because my,

[00:10:15] you know,

[00:10:15] my dad's been sick.

[00:10:16] But Brandon and I,

[00:10:17] so my partner and I

[00:10:18] would co-host it together.

[00:10:19] And when we did an episode

[00:10:21] on what we fight about

[00:10:23] and we did another episode

[00:10:24] on how we resolve conflict,

[00:10:26] people were really surprised

[00:10:28] that we fight.

[00:10:29] And I'm thinking,

[00:10:29] well,

[00:10:30] of course we fight.

[00:10:31] Once a month,

[00:10:32] I will fight with anyone.

[00:10:35] But it's interesting

[00:10:37] because even us,

[00:10:38] I will admit

[00:10:38] that we're only showing

[00:10:39] a little bit of it, right?

[00:10:40] I'm not going to go

[00:10:41] and speak to the public

[00:10:43] or speak to people

[00:10:44] with whom I have parasocial relationships

[00:10:47] if I'm in the middle of a fight.

[00:10:48] Like,

[00:10:48] of course it's easy

[00:10:49] for Brandon and I

[00:10:50] to talk about an argument

[00:10:51] after the argument

[00:10:52] has been resolved, right?

[00:10:54] And so I try and provide this model

[00:10:56] but even like me,

[00:10:57] it's only a piece of it, right?

[00:10:59] I'm not going to come

[00:10:59] in the middle of it

[00:11:00] and tell you what a jerk I am,

[00:11:01] show everybody

[00:11:02] how irrational I am,

[00:11:03] show everybody

[00:11:04] that I misspeak

[00:11:05] and that I'm,

[00:11:07] you know,

[00:11:07] saying things that hurt

[00:11:08] at times, right?

[00:11:10] We all get spiteful.

[00:11:11] We all want to poke

[00:11:12] in that moment.

[00:11:13] Yeah.

[00:11:13] So I think

[00:11:14] the performative imperfection

[00:11:16] is just another layer

[00:11:18] of,

[00:11:19] okay,

[00:11:19] so we look perfect

[00:11:20] and then we show you

[00:11:21] this kind of

[00:11:22] performative vulnerability,

[00:11:23] right?

[00:11:24] Like looking at the camera

[00:11:24] while I'm crying

[00:11:25] to tell you

[00:11:25] I have bad days too.

[00:11:27] Okay.

[00:11:27] That could be helpful

[00:11:28] for people

[00:11:29] and I do like

[00:11:30] that we have models

[00:11:31] of folks crying

[00:11:32] especially seeing men cry

[00:11:33] and men struggle

[00:11:34] or men well up.

[00:11:35] People of all genders

[00:11:36] of course

[00:11:36] but I know that

[00:11:37] there's less space

[00:11:38] for men

[00:11:39] to show that side

[00:11:39] of vulnerability.

[00:11:40] There's value in that

[00:11:41] but again,

[00:11:42] just remember

[00:11:43] that we've decided

[00:11:44] to pick up the camera

[00:11:44] so you're seeing

[00:11:45] a piece of it

[00:11:46] but you're not seeing

[00:11:47] the full picture

[00:11:48] and you're right.

[00:11:48] I guess if we look

[00:11:49] at that every day

[00:11:50] and we see these people

[00:11:51] having so much fun

[00:11:52] vacuuming

[00:11:53] or so much fun

[00:11:54] doing the dishes

[00:11:54] whether it's sponsored

[00:11:55] by a hand wash company

[00:11:57] or not,

[00:11:58] we're saying,

[00:11:59] well,

[00:11:59] you know what?

[00:11:59] I'm just having a bad day

[00:12:00] and like I'm sick

[00:12:02] of this person right now.

[00:12:03] Why don't I feel

[00:12:04] what they feel?

[00:12:05] But I think

[00:12:06] that media literacy

[00:12:07] is so important.

[00:12:08] Media literacy

[00:12:08] has always been

[00:12:10] of paramount importance.

[00:12:11] You know I was

[00:12:12] an English teacher

[00:12:12] and so I would try

[00:12:14] and integrate that

[00:12:14] across all subject matters

[00:12:16] or all subjects

[00:12:18] and now media literacy

[00:12:20] has shifted

[00:12:21] because the content

[00:12:22] that we receive

[00:12:23] is so much more voluminous.

[00:12:25] Right?

[00:12:26] It used to be

[00:12:27] you could read something

[00:12:28] that felt outraging

[00:12:29] and you would sit with it.

[00:12:31] You would say,

[00:12:32] look at this injustice

[00:12:33] in the world

[00:12:33] and it could affect you

[00:12:35] in a different way

[00:12:36] but now I see

[00:12:37] one injustice

[00:12:37] and a nanosecond later

[00:12:39] there's another

[00:12:40] and another

[00:12:41] and another

[00:12:42] and so yes,

[00:12:43] there's a psychological toll

[00:12:44] but there's also,

[00:12:46] I think,

[00:12:47] we become a bit desensitized.

[00:12:49] Yeah.

[00:12:50] Yeah,

[00:12:50] that's a,

[00:12:51] I mean,

[00:12:52] that's a whole other topic.

[00:12:53] Yeah,

[00:12:54] I shifted way over there

[00:12:54] as I do.

[00:12:56] There's a squirrel.

[00:12:58] But yeah,

[00:12:59] the desensitization piece

[00:13:01] I think is a big one

[00:13:02] and I was thinking

[00:13:03] as you were talking

[00:13:04] about how perhaps

[00:13:05] it's millennials

[00:13:06] and Gen X

[00:13:07] who are spending

[00:13:08] even more time

[00:13:09] on social media

[00:13:10] while complaining

[00:13:11] that Gen Z

[00:13:12] are the ones

[00:13:12] that are,

[00:13:14] as you were talking

[00:13:15] I was like,

[00:13:15] yeah,

[00:13:16] yeah,

[00:13:16] that is happening

[00:13:17] and I know people

[00:13:18] who are doing that

[00:13:19] and I know people

[00:13:19] who are going on

[00:13:20] and ranting

[00:13:20] about various things

[00:13:21] and quick to reply

[00:13:22] and constantly on

[00:13:24] and if you send them

[00:13:24] a message or a DM

[00:13:25] they're immediately

[00:13:26] replying type of thing.

[00:13:28] Is there,

[00:13:29] then for that

[00:13:30] particular generation,

[00:13:31] Gen Z,

[00:13:32] sorry,

[00:13:33] millennials and Gen X,

[00:13:35] when it comes to dating

[00:13:36] for them,

[00:13:38] what's the biggest,

[00:13:39] I guess,

[00:13:40] hurdle that they're

[00:13:41] trying to overcome

[00:13:42] at this point?

[00:13:43] Yeah,

[00:13:43] so that kind of age range

[00:13:44] of older,

[00:13:45] I think they call us

[00:13:46] geriatric millennials,

[00:13:48] a lot of folks

[00:13:49] are getting back

[00:13:50] into the dating scene

[00:13:51] after a break

[00:13:52] break up

[00:13:53] from a serious relationship.

[00:13:54] Oftentimes,

[00:13:54] they have children

[00:13:56] and there's

[00:13:57] a whole other layer

[00:13:58] because they've been

[00:13:59] out of the dating game

[00:14:00] for so long

[00:14:00] and I think you and I

[00:14:01] talked about this

[00:14:01] a while ago.

[00:14:03] Obviously,

[00:14:03] I work in dating

[00:14:05] and I work with people

[00:14:05] who are dating

[00:14:06] and hear hundreds

[00:14:07] of stories every week

[00:14:08] but I'm not dating

[00:14:09] and so to go back

[00:14:10] into the dating pool

[00:14:11] when the landscape

[00:14:12] has shifted

[00:14:13] so significantly,

[00:14:15] so not just

[00:14:16] the digital landscape

[00:14:17] but also the world

[00:14:18] so we are

[00:14:18] post-pandemic,

[00:14:20] the way we socialize

[00:14:21] is different,

[00:14:23] the way we set

[00:14:23] boundaries is different.

[00:14:25] So the biggest challenge

[00:14:26] I think is coming back

[00:14:27] and saying how do I

[00:14:27] navigate online dating?

[00:14:29] How do I navigate

[00:14:30] the language of dating?

[00:14:31] How do I navigate

[00:14:32] the fact that

[00:14:33] I have more choice,

[00:14:35] more options,

[00:14:36] more access

[00:14:37] than ever before

[00:14:38] and I'm faced

[00:14:39] with this paradox

[00:14:40] of choice, right?

[00:14:41] So I'm a 40-year-old woman

[00:14:42] for example

[00:14:42] and I've come out

[00:14:44] of a long-term relationship

[00:14:45] and do I want to date

[00:14:47] folks in their 20s?

[00:14:48] Do I want to date

[00:14:49] folks who are older than me?

[00:14:50] I'm seeing folks

[00:14:51] who never identified

[00:14:53] as queer

[00:14:53] who are dating people

[00:14:55] who are not,

[00:14:56] I don't want to say

[00:14:57] the opposite gender

[00:14:58] but who are dating

[00:14:59] all genders

[00:14:59] and this is something

[00:15:00] later in life

[00:15:01] so we're seeing

[00:15:02] really interesting

[00:15:03] approaches to dating.

[00:15:05] Another piece

[00:15:06] that I'll speak to

[00:15:07] that I think

[00:15:08] is the positive side

[00:15:09] of technology

[00:15:09] is we now have

[00:15:10] so many groups online,

[00:15:12] support groups,

[00:15:13] whether they're on Facebook

[00:15:14] or if you're on

[00:15:14] some sort of other platform,

[00:15:16] folks are asking questions

[00:15:17] and sharing experiences

[00:15:19] so yes,

[00:15:20] it's voluminous

[00:15:21] but I think there's

[00:15:21] a lot of value

[00:15:22] in being able

[00:15:23] to go online

[00:15:24] and say I'm X years old,

[00:15:26] this is my story,

[00:15:27] who else has

[00:15:28] a similar experience

[00:15:29] and what I notice

[00:15:31] about multiple generations

[00:15:33] but I would say

[00:15:33] like younger folks

[00:15:34] is they're pretty great

[00:15:35] about sharing experiences

[00:15:38] without sharing advice

[00:15:40] because,

[00:15:41] you know,

[00:15:41] there's a tendency

[00:15:43] to generalize

[00:15:44] or globalize

[00:15:45] individual experiences

[00:15:46] so this happened to me

[00:15:47] therefore this is what happens

[00:15:49] whereas I'm noticing

[00:15:50] a really strong shift

[00:15:52] to saying,

[00:15:53] okay,

[00:15:54] I was in a similar situation

[00:15:55] and this is what I felt,

[00:15:56] this is what I experienced,

[00:15:58] this is what I took away from it

[00:15:59] and so I think

[00:16:00] there's a lot of valuable

[00:16:00] learning there.

[00:16:01] I would consider it

[00:16:02] a form of group therapy.

[00:16:03] I realize folks

[00:16:04] are not therapists

[00:16:05] but I think there's

[00:16:06] a real value

[00:16:07] in experience sharing.

[00:16:08] Well,

[00:16:09] to that point

[00:16:10] I had a guest on

[00:16:11] who is a therapist

[00:16:13] by trade

[00:16:13] who talked about

[00:16:14] group therapy

[00:16:15] or sort of

[00:16:16] men's groups

[00:16:18] being a platform

[00:16:20] that supports men

[00:16:21] in a way

[00:16:22] where they get

[00:16:22] almost permission

[00:16:23] to have conversations

[00:16:24] because they see

[00:16:25] others doing it

[00:16:26] versus individualized therapy

[00:16:28] so it's not

[00:16:29] out of this world

[00:16:30] I mean,

[00:16:31] as you're talking about it

[00:16:31] I go,

[00:16:32] yeah,

[00:16:32] I can understand

[00:16:32] then why

[00:16:33] when you see these groups

[00:16:34] and you see the conversations

[00:16:35] that are happening

[00:16:36] you go,

[00:16:37] oh,

[00:16:37] okay,

[00:16:37] yeah,

[00:16:38] other people

[00:16:38] feel the same thing

[00:16:39] they're going through

[00:16:40] something similar

[00:16:41] I feel a little bit

[00:16:42] more comfortable

[00:16:42] having these conversations

[00:16:43] reaching out

[00:16:44] and saying,

[00:16:44] hey,

[00:16:45] you know,

[00:16:45] I'm going on a date

[00:16:46] for the first time

[00:16:47] in X number of years

[00:16:48] that's not my ex

[00:16:50] so and so

[00:16:51] you know,

[00:16:53] advice anyone?

[00:16:54] Yeah,

[00:16:54] and there's so much

[00:16:55] validation in that

[00:16:56] and I think there's

[00:16:57] validation in the

[00:16:58] diversity of experiences too

[00:16:59] because somebody might say,

[00:17:00] you know what,

[00:17:01] I just want to go out

[00:17:01] and have casual sex

[00:17:02] here's how I did it

[00:17:03] here's the app I used

[00:17:04] or I was looking for

[00:17:05] something really serious

[00:17:06] or I wanted to date

[00:17:07] you know,

[00:17:08] in a specific area

[00:17:09] and so you can choose

[00:17:11] what kind of works

[00:17:12] for you

[00:17:12] and a therapist

[00:17:13] actually can't offer

[00:17:14] that same support

[00:17:16] and again,

[00:17:16] I want to be clear

[00:17:17] because folks are

[00:17:18] going to say,

[00:17:19] you know,

[00:17:19] that's not therapy

[00:17:19] I'm obviously not saying

[00:17:20] it's therapy

[00:17:21] I'm coming from that background

[00:17:22] but I think there's value

[00:17:23] in experience sharing

[00:17:24] and what you said

[00:17:25] about men's groups

[00:17:26] in particular

[00:17:27] I think there's

[00:17:29] huge value in that

[00:17:30] so I facilitate

[00:17:31] workshops obviously

[00:17:33] and they're for

[00:17:35] people of all genders

[00:17:36] but sometimes

[00:17:37] I will get men's groups

[00:17:38] and sometimes

[00:17:39] we'll do some splitting up

[00:17:40] and I've had experiences

[00:17:42] where my partner

[00:17:43] Brandon has been with me

[00:17:44] and I've asked him

[00:17:45] can you just get

[00:17:45] this group started

[00:17:47] and they will open up

[00:17:49] because he will open up

[00:17:50] right,

[00:17:51] I think about this one

[00:17:52] session on jealousy

[00:17:54] and for me to talk

[00:17:55] about data on jealousy

[00:17:56] and research on jealousy

[00:17:58] and case studies

[00:17:58] on jealousy

[00:17:59] is one thing

[00:17:59] but for Brandon

[00:18:01] to say yeah,

[00:18:02] you know,

[00:18:02] when this happened

[00:18:03] I felt really jealous

[00:18:05] this is how I responded

[00:18:06] this is how I processed

[00:18:08] jealousy when I was 21

[00:18:09] versus when I'm 41

[00:18:11] all of a sudden

[00:18:12] these guys are talking

[00:18:13] in a different way

[00:18:14] right,

[00:18:15] it's just one person

[00:18:16] who needs to kind of

[00:18:17] create space for

[00:18:18] yes,

[00:18:19] validation

[00:18:19] but permission

[00:18:20] in sex therapy

[00:18:21] we talk about

[00:18:22] a plicit model

[00:18:23] where most folks

[00:18:25] need permission

[00:18:26] everybody needs permission

[00:18:27] and then people need

[00:18:28] information

[00:18:29] they call it

[00:18:30] limited information

[00:18:30] then some folks

[00:18:31] need specific suggestions

[00:18:32] and it's a smaller

[00:18:34] group of folks

[00:18:34] who are going to have

[00:18:35] the intensive therapy

[00:18:36] but we all

[00:18:37] need that

[00:18:38] I guess you would call it

[00:18:39] a base

[00:18:40] of permission

[00:18:41] and that modeling

[00:18:42] is more valuable

[00:18:43] than any data

[00:18:43] ever will be

[00:18:44] well,

[00:18:44] Brandon leading

[00:18:45] with vulnerability

[00:18:48] is what gives

[00:18:50] permission

[00:18:50] to the other guys

[00:18:51] in that room

[00:18:52] to also share

[00:18:52] their vulnerability

[00:18:53] because there's that

[00:18:54] inherent fear of

[00:18:55] I can't talk about

[00:18:56] how I was jealous

[00:18:57] because I know

[00:18:58] when I was in my 20s

[00:18:59] and I got jealous

[00:19:00] of something

[00:19:01] another guy did

[00:19:01] or the way

[00:19:03] a guy said hello

[00:19:04] to my girlfriend

[00:19:05] and I got immediately

[00:19:06] jealous and mad at her

[00:19:07] like it was her fault

[00:19:08] someone said hello

[00:19:09] to her

[00:19:10] that's embarrassing

[00:19:11] sometimes to say that

[00:19:12] out loud in front of

[00:19:13] a group of people

[00:19:13] that you don't really know

[00:19:14] and be like

[00:19:15] yeah, I messed up

[00:19:16] when I was a kid

[00:19:17] and this is now

[00:19:18] how I process it

[00:19:19] and it's a universal experience

[00:19:22] emotions are universal

[00:19:25] and we treat

[00:19:26] I guess

[00:19:26] some emotions

[00:19:27] as positive

[00:19:28] and we want to get

[00:19:29] more of them

[00:19:29] and some as negative

[00:19:31] and we want to rid

[00:19:31] ourselves of them

[00:19:32] when of course

[00:19:33] you can't rid yourself

[00:19:34] of feelings

[00:19:35] because I will run

[00:19:35] into people

[00:19:36] who will say

[00:19:36] I've never felt jealous

[00:19:37] or I never feel insecure

[00:19:39] and I'm thinking

[00:19:41] you may take insecurity

[00:19:42] or jealousy

[00:19:43] as some sort of a

[00:19:44] label or an accusation

[00:19:46] but these are temporary

[00:19:47] experiences

[00:19:48] right

[00:19:48] at all times

[00:19:49] or at some point in time

[00:19:51] everybody is going

[00:19:52] to experience jealousy

[00:19:53] at some point in time

[00:19:55] everybody's going

[00:19:56] to feel insecure

[00:19:57] at some point in time

[00:19:59] we may feel hopeless

[00:20:00] right

[00:20:00] this range of experiences

[00:20:02] is what makes us human

[00:20:03] and trying to eradicate them

[00:20:06] is an exercise

[00:20:07] in futility

[00:20:08] obviously

[00:20:08] so if

[00:20:09] someone's listening

[00:20:10] to this

[00:20:10] watching this

[00:20:11] and they hear you

[00:20:11] talk about

[00:20:12] you know

[00:20:13] trying to eradicate

[00:20:14] this idea of jealousy

[00:20:15] or being insecure

[00:20:17] because it does happen

[00:20:17] to everybody

[00:20:18] yes

[00:20:18] and there's a negative

[00:20:19] connotation to

[00:20:20] oh he gets jealous

[00:20:22] or oh Samir gets insecure

[00:20:23] about X

[00:20:24] or whatever it is

[00:20:25] that suddenly

[00:20:26] you're on the defensive

[00:20:27] of like yeah

[00:20:28] but or no

[00:20:29] that's not true

[00:20:31] then what is a good

[00:20:33] exercise

[00:20:34] or way to approach

[00:20:36] something

[00:20:36] when you know

[00:20:37] you're feeling

[00:20:38] a sense of jealousy

[00:20:39] or if you're on the flip side

[00:20:41] you know your partner

[00:20:42] is feeling a sense of jealousy

[00:20:44] how you can support them

[00:20:46] so I think

[00:20:47] if you're feeling jealous

[00:20:48] the first step

[00:20:48] is being willing

[00:20:49] to admit it

[00:20:50] right

[00:20:50] anytime we take

[00:20:51] an emotion

[00:20:52] that folks tend to avoid

[00:20:54] we usually say

[00:20:55] make friends with it

[00:20:56] right

[00:20:56] so anybody who's done

[00:20:57] cognitive behavioral therapy

[00:20:58] or who has dealt

[00:20:59] with anxiety

[00:21:00] oftentimes the therapist

[00:21:01] is going to say

[00:21:02] first step

[00:21:02] is making friends

[00:21:03] with it

[00:21:03] and saying

[00:21:03] this actually

[00:21:04] serves a function

[00:21:05] right

[00:21:05] jealousy

[00:21:06] can be a normative

[00:21:07] experience

[00:21:07] or it can be

[00:21:08] a problematic experience

[00:21:09] so if I feel jealous

[00:21:11] it may help me

[00:21:12] recognize

[00:21:13] something that

[00:21:14] I'm concerned about

[00:21:15] or something that

[00:21:15] I want to preserve

[00:21:16] because there's

[00:21:16] different ways

[00:21:17] to frame jealousy

[00:21:18] so the first step

[00:21:19] is saying

[00:21:19] like I feel jealous

[00:21:20] right

[00:21:21] because if you avoid

[00:21:21] jealousy

[00:21:22] if you feel jealousy

[00:21:23] and then instead

[00:21:23] you turn to anger

[00:21:25] or instead you turn

[00:21:26] to accusing somebody

[00:21:27] of something

[00:21:28] or you turn to possession

[00:21:30] well then we can't

[00:21:31] really deal with the jealousy

[00:21:31] but if you have the capacity

[00:21:33] to say

[00:21:33] I'm human

[00:21:34] and I feel jealous

[00:21:36] that's a good start

[00:21:37] and so

[00:21:38] just knowing

[00:21:39] that everybody

[00:21:40] experiences it

[00:21:41] that it doesn't make you

[00:21:42] a bad person

[00:21:43] that it doesn't mean

[00:21:44] that your relationship

[00:21:44] is unstable

[00:21:45] that it doesn't mean

[00:21:46] that it has to explode

[00:21:47] into something

[00:21:48] particularly negative

[00:21:49] is the first step

[00:21:51] sometimes we'll

[00:21:52] recommend that folks

[00:21:54] kind of just check in

[00:21:55] with your body

[00:21:55] what do you feel

[00:21:56] when you feel jealous

[00:21:57] because sometimes

[00:21:58] the reaction

[00:21:59] that comes from jealousy

[00:22:00] so it's the behavior

[00:22:01] not the actual emotion

[00:22:02] that can be problematic

[00:22:03] you might lash out

[00:22:04] you might scream

[00:22:05] you might turn away

[00:22:06] you might withdraw

[00:22:08] if you can feel

[00:22:09] what you're feeling

[00:22:09] in your body

[00:22:10] the physiological response

[00:22:12] to the feeling

[00:22:12] sometimes addressing

[00:22:14] the physiological sensation

[00:22:15] first

[00:22:17] can be more effective

[00:22:18] than trying to actually

[00:22:19] deal with the emotion

[00:22:20] especially if you're

[00:22:20] feeling a little irrational

[00:22:22] if your heart is beating

[00:22:23] over 100 beats a minute

[00:22:24] we lose that capacity

[00:22:26] to be rational

[00:22:27] so if you can say

[00:22:28] you know what

[00:22:28] I can feel

[00:22:28] that I'm breathing

[00:22:30] really shallow

[00:22:31] so okay

[00:22:31] I'm just gonna deepen

[00:22:32] my breath for a second

[00:22:33] or I can feel

[00:22:34] that I'm starting to sweat

[00:22:35] so I'm just gonna

[00:22:36] slow down

[00:22:37] for a moment

[00:22:38] or I can feel

[00:22:38] that I'm tightening

[00:22:39] my butthole

[00:22:40] right

[00:22:40] a lot of the stuff

[00:22:41] happens in our head

[00:22:41] and the tail

[00:22:42] like can I just relax

[00:22:44] for a moment

[00:22:44] because sometimes

[00:22:45] with negative emotions

[00:22:46] or emotions

[00:22:46] that we don't tend

[00:22:47] to want to experience

[00:22:48] if we address

[00:22:49] the physiological sensations

[00:22:50] it actually

[00:22:52] lessens

[00:22:53] or attenuates

[00:22:53] that effect

[00:22:55] of the emotion

[00:22:55] in the body

[00:22:56] and then

[00:22:57] the question is

[00:22:58] well what am I gonna do

[00:22:59] about it

[00:22:59] right

[00:23:00] so what is the problem

[00:23:01] with feeling jealous

[00:23:02] so they have something

[00:23:03] that I want

[00:23:04] right

[00:23:06] getting to the root of it

[00:23:07] okay they have something

[00:23:08] that I want

[00:23:08] or they're threatening

[00:23:09] something that I feel

[00:23:11] I have

[00:23:11] in the case of relationships

[00:23:14] be a little bit

[00:23:15] rational about it

[00:23:16] like what do I think

[00:23:16] is gonna happen

[00:23:17] so this person

[00:23:18] is I don't know

[00:23:19] richer

[00:23:20] or seems more charming

[00:23:22] or sometimes

[00:23:23] it has to do

[00:23:24] with the way

[00:23:24] we perceive

[00:23:25] people's appearance

[00:23:26] like do they have

[00:23:27] something that is

[00:23:28] going to threaten

[00:23:29] something that I've

[00:23:30] built over time

[00:23:32] and what

[00:23:33] what are the messages

[00:23:34] what are the

[00:23:35] sociocultural

[00:23:36] messages tied to

[00:23:37] identity

[00:23:37] that have made me

[00:23:38] believe that

[00:23:39] because oftentimes

[00:23:40] it's not rational

[00:23:41] right

[00:23:41] sometimes it's like

[00:23:42] that old reptilian

[00:23:43] brain saying

[00:23:44] there's some danger

[00:23:45] when there actually

[00:23:45] isn't

[00:23:46] and you can't

[00:23:47] really think

[00:23:48] rationally

[00:23:49] if your physical

[00:23:50] sensations

[00:23:51] are going off

[00:23:53] the charts

[00:23:53] so it's kind of

[00:23:54] asking yourself

[00:23:54] what am I worried

[00:23:55] about here

[00:23:55] I wonder how much

[00:23:57] of that

[00:23:58] is a subconscious

[00:24:00] or inherent fear

[00:24:01] that whatever

[00:24:02] that other person

[00:24:03] that third party

[00:24:05] is doing to your

[00:24:06] partner

[00:24:07] could potentially

[00:24:08] result in your

[00:24:09] partner leaving

[00:24:09] you

[00:24:10] I know when I was

[00:24:11] younger that was

[00:24:12] always the fear

[00:24:12] of oh this person

[00:24:14] is better looking

[00:24:16] more jacked

[00:24:17] taller

[00:24:17] you know

[00:24:18] stereotypical guy

[00:24:19] things

[00:24:19] and then thinking

[00:24:20] to myself

[00:24:21] at what point

[00:24:22] is she just

[00:24:22] going to be like

[00:24:23] that's the better

[00:24:24] option

[00:24:25] and I think

[00:24:26] in this world

[00:24:26] of having a

[00:24:28] buffet of options

[00:24:29] that's a constant

[00:24:30] fear and I've had

[00:24:31] people tell me

[00:24:32] that that's

[00:24:32] something that

[00:24:33] they worry about

[00:24:35] I think everybody

[00:24:36] worries about that

[00:24:37] at some moment

[00:24:37] in time

[00:24:38] so we can

[00:24:39] kind of look

[00:24:40] at what the

[00:24:40] present moment

[00:24:41] is and also

[00:24:42] recognize in a

[00:24:44] bigger picture

[00:24:44] sense that we

[00:24:45] don't own

[00:24:46] anybody

[00:24:46] right

[00:24:47] and so if we

[00:24:48] can look at

[00:24:49] connection

[00:24:50] as quality

[00:24:51] as fulfillment

[00:24:52] as building a

[00:24:53] life together

[00:24:54] as friendship

[00:24:55] as companionship

[00:24:56] we're probably

[00:24:57] going to be less

[00:24:58] worried about

[00:24:58] someone else's

[00:24:59] abs

[00:24:59] or someone else's

[00:25:01] height

[00:25:01] or someone else's

[00:25:02] even pocketbook

[00:25:03] that was such

[00:25:04] an old word

[00:25:05] to use

[00:25:05] pocketbook

[00:25:06] I saw you

[00:25:07] stutter in a

[00:25:07] moment

[00:25:08] in your pocketbook

[00:25:09] how did I say

[00:25:09] pocketbook

[00:25:10] I've been hanging

[00:25:10] out with my dad

[00:25:11] I was at his

[00:25:12] retirement home

[00:25:12] earlier

[00:25:13] it's just you know

[00:25:14] the language

[00:25:14] starts to shift

[00:25:17] so I think

[00:25:18] that we have

[00:25:19] to be able

[00:25:19] to recognize

[00:25:20] what we're feeling

[00:25:21] so your capacity

[00:25:21] today to say

[00:25:22] you know what

[00:25:22] I was really

[00:25:23] just worried

[00:25:23] I was going

[00:25:23] to lose her

[00:25:24] we can't

[00:25:25] usually get there

[00:25:26] and you can't

[00:25:27] get there

[00:25:27] if you don't

[00:25:27] admit you're

[00:25:28] jealous

[00:25:28] so each step

[00:25:29] kind of builds

[00:25:30] upon the other

[00:25:30] and I'm not

[00:25:30] trying to make

[00:25:31] it sound

[00:25:31] complicated

[00:25:32] because it

[00:25:32] doesn't actually

[00:25:33] have to be

[00:25:33] number one

[00:25:34] I feel jealous

[00:25:35] number two

[00:25:35] how does it

[00:25:35] feel in my

[00:25:36] body

[00:25:36] number three

[00:25:37] what am I

[00:25:37] afraid of

[00:25:38] what am I

[00:25:38] afraid of

[00:25:39] here

[00:25:39] and is that

[00:25:40] realistic

[00:25:40] because you

[00:25:40] know when

[00:25:41] you're really

[00:25:41] stressed about

[00:25:41] something

[00:25:42] let's put

[00:25:42] jealousy aside

[00:25:43] for a moment

[00:25:43] when you have

[00:25:44] so much on

[00:25:45] your plate

[00:25:45] and you're

[00:25:45] worried about

[00:25:46] a whole bunch

[00:25:46] of things

[00:25:46] if you write

[00:25:47] it down

[00:25:48] oftentimes

[00:25:48] you realize

[00:25:49] actually it's

[00:25:50] not that

[00:25:50] big of a deal

[00:25:50] right like I

[00:25:51] can actually

[00:25:52] manage this

[00:25:52] so is my

[00:25:53] partner going

[00:25:54] to leave me

[00:25:56] because I

[00:25:57] don't know

[00:25:57] somebody has

[00:25:58] an extra ab

[00:25:58] that I don't

[00:25:59] have I guess

[00:25:59] abs come in

[00:26:00] too right

[00:26:00] or whatever

[00:26:00] people are

[00:26:01] worried about

[00:26:02] I don't

[00:26:02] know can

[00:26:02] you get

[00:26:03] one ab

[00:26:03] I don't

[00:26:04] know

[00:26:04] maybe you

[00:26:05] can do

[00:26:05] the side

[00:26:06] sit ups

[00:26:06] on one side

[00:26:07] only that

[00:26:07] would be

[00:26:07] something I

[00:26:08] would do

[00:26:08] I'd get

[00:26:08] bored

[00:26:10] so like I

[00:26:11] only do

[00:26:11] one side

[00:26:11] of my

[00:26:11] hair

[00:26:12] I don't

[00:26:13] want to

[00:26:13] do the

[00:26:13] other one

[00:26:13] so I

[00:26:14] think that

[00:26:15] we can be

[00:26:15] a little bit

[00:26:15] more rational

[00:26:16] about it

[00:26:16] what are we

[00:26:17] really afraid

[00:26:17] of here

[00:26:18] right

[00:26:18] and then

[00:26:19] you asked

[00:26:20] about

[00:26:20] supporting a

[00:26:21] partner

[00:26:21] so number

[00:26:22] one though

[00:26:23] I think we

[00:26:23] have to ask

[00:26:24] ourselves

[00:26:24] what are we

[00:26:24] going to

[00:26:25] do about

[00:26:25] it

[00:26:25] because we

[00:26:26] do often

[00:26:26] turn to

[00:26:27] external

[00:26:28] sources

[00:26:28] to assuage

[00:26:30] our negative

[00:26:30] feelings

[00:26:31] without even

[00:26:31] looking internally

[00:26:32] and saying

[00:26:33] oh actually

[00:26:33] I can manage

[00:26:34] some of this

[00:26:34] right

[00:26:35] like how can

[00:26:35] I change

[00:26:36] the way

[00:26:36] I talk

[00:26:36] to myself

[00:26:37] how can

[00:26:37] I change

[00:26:37] the way

[00:26:38] I think

[00:26:38] how can

[00:26:39] I change

[00:26:39] what I'm

[00:26:39] doing in

[00:26:40] this moment

[00:26:40] to assuage

[00:26:42] the jealousy

[00:26:42] to lessen

[00:26:43] it to

[00:26:44] or to sit

[00:26:44] with it

[00:26:45] and then

[00:26:46] you might

[00:26:46] also ask

[00:26:48] your partner

[00:26:48] for what

[00:26:49] it is

[00:26:49] you need

[00:26:50] right

[00:26:50] and so

[00:26:51] people will

[00:26:51] kind of

[00:26:52] immediately

[00:26:53] turn a corner

[00:26:54] and say

[00:26:54] I need you

[00:26:54] not to talk

[00:26:55] to him

[00:26:55] right

[00:26:56] but what

[00:26:57] we probably

[00:26:58] need

[00:26:58] is some

[00:26:59] sort of

[00:26:59] validation

[00:26:59] some sort

[00:27:00] of

[00:27:01] communication

[00:27:02] of security

[00:27:03] and we need

[00:27:03] that on an

[00:27:04] ongoing basis

[00:27:05] right

[00:27:05] so if you

[00:27:06] lay the

[00:27:06] foundation

[00:27:06] in the

[00:27:07] relationship

[00:27:08] whereby

[00:27:08] I'm

[00:27:09] receiving

[00:27:09] positive

[00:27:10] messages

[00:27:11] I am

[00:27:11] receiving

[00:27:12] messages

[00:27:12] of security

[00:27:13] of love

[00:27:13] of value

[00:27:14] of connection

[00:27:15] over time

[00:27:16] and I'm

[00:27:16] nurturing

[00:27:16] that right

[00:27:17] back

[00:27:17] so that

[00:27:18] it's

[00:27:18] reciprocal

[00:27:18] it's

[00:27:19] probably

[00:27:20] a little

[00:27:20] bit easier

[00:27:21] than only

[00:27:21] asking for

[00:27:22] that

[00:27:22] or only

[00:27:22] receiving

[00:27:23] that in

[00:27:23] a moment

[00:27:24] of tension

[00:27:24] in a

[00:27:24] moment

[00:27:25] of crisis

[00:27:25] right

[00:27:26] so if

[00:27:26] I don't

[00:27:28] know that

[00:27:28] we're in

[00:27:29] a committed

[00:27:29] relationship

[00:27:29] if I'm

[00:27:30] unsure

[00:27:30] because so

[00:27:31] many folks

[00:27:31] that's another

[00:27:32] thing we're

[00:27:32] seeing

[00:27:32] are in

[00:27:32] these

[00:27:33] situations

[00:27:34] where they

[00:27:34] don't really

[00:27:35] know what

[00:27:35] they are

[00:27:35] where they

[00:27:36] don't want to

[00:27:36] define it

[00:27:37] which is

[00:27:37] fine

[00:27:37] but if

[00:27:38] that's

[00:27:38] making you

[00:27:38] feel

[00:27:39] insecure

[00:27:40] to the point

[00:27:40] that you're

[00:27:40] feeling distressed

[00:27:41] often

[00:27:41] where you're

[00:27:42] worried about

[00:27:42] losing something

[00:27:43] that you actually

[00:27:44] value

[00:27:44] whether you're

[00:27:45] admitting it

[00:27:45] or not

[00:27:47] then it's

[00:27:47] harder to get

[00:27:48] that reassurance

[00:27:49] right

[00:27:49] but if you

[00:27:49] have that

[00:27:50] foundation

[00:27:50] where you

[00:27:51] generally feel

[00:27:51] loved

[00:27:52] you generally

[00:27:52] feel safe

[00:27:53] you generally

[00:27:54] feel valued

[00:27:54] you feel

[00:27:55] connected

[00:27:56] you're probably

[00:27:57] A going to be

[00:27:58] able to do

[00:27:59] the more rational

[00:28:00] self-talk on your

[00:28:01] own and you're

[00:28:01] probably going to

[00:28:02] be better equipped

[00:28:02] to ask for what

[00:28:03] you need

[00:28:04] right

[00:28:04] sometimes

[00:28:04] it's as simple

[00:28:05] as tell me

[00:28:06] you love me

[00:28:06] tell me I have

[00:28:07] nothing to worry

[00:28:08] about

[00:28:08] and that's okay

[00:28:09] too

[00:28:10] one concern

[00:28:10] and I don't

[00:28:11] know if we've

[00:28:11] ever talked

[00:28:11] about this

[00:28:12] is when folks

[00:28:13] accuse their

[00:28:14] partner of their

[00:28:15] feelings like

[00:28:16] oh you're

[00:28:16] just jealous

[00:28:17] you're insecure

[00:28:18] yeah that's

[00:28:19] exactly what

[00:28:19] I'm feeling

[00:28:20] thanks so much

[00:28:21] for telling me

[00:28:22] that I'm feeling

[00:28:22] what I'm feeling

[00:28:23] people do it

[00:28:23] with anger

[00:28:24] right in certain

[00:28:25] cultures like

[00:28:25] some cultures

[00:28:26] we're very

[00:28:26] comfortable with

[00:28:27] anger

[00:28:27] angry expressions

[00:28:29] but other

[00:28:30] cultures like

[00:28:30] you're angry

[00:28:31] yeah I'm

[00:28:32] angry

[00:28:33] that's what

[00:28:33] I'm feeling

[00:28:34] again a human

[00:28:35] emotion

[00:28:36] and we don't

[00:28:37] want to accuse

[00:28:37] people of their

[00:28:38] feelings we want

[00:28:38] to think about

[00:28:39] I'm not responsible

[00:28:40] for your feelings

[00:28:41] but obviously if I

[00:28:42] care about you

[00:28:42] and I care about

[00:28:43] everyone I believe

[00:28:44] there's love between

[00:28:45] all of us

[00:28:45] I don't want you

[00:28:46] to feel badly

[00:28:47] sure

[00:28:47] so I'm not

[00:28:48] responsible for your

[00:28:49] feelings but am I

[00:28:50] creating conditions

[00:28:51] is my behavior

[00:28:52] intensifying some

[00:28:53] feelings that maybe

[00:28:54] I could do a little

[00:28:55] shift so you don't

[00:28:56] feel those feelings

[00:28:57] as much again

[00:28:58] I think we have to

[00:28:59] find this balance

[00:29:00] and there always has

[00:29:00] to be nuance around

[00:29:01] if you feel jealous

[00:29:03] of course I want to

[00:29:04] offer reassurance

[00:29:05] and if we have the

[00:29:07] foundation of love

[00:29:08] and trust and security

[00:29:09] and I communicate my

[00:29:10] care for you

[00:29:10] and you're struggling

[00:29:11] with your jealousy

[00:29:12] that's probably work

[00:29:13] you want to do on

[00:29:13] your own

[00:29:14] and this is probably

[00:29:15] the most important

[00:29:15] piece in relationships

[00:29:16] and why so many

[00:29:18] therapists don't want

[00:29:19] to do couples therapy

[00:29:20] because oftentimes

[00:29:22] we see problems as

[00:29:23] rooted in the

[00:29:24] relationship

[00:29:25] when in fact

[00:29:26] yes sometimes it's a

[00:29:27] dynamic you've created

[00:29:28] together but sometimes

[00:29:29] there are just some

[00:29:30] issues that we need

[00:29:30] to work out on our

[00:29:31] own right

[00:29:32] so in you know

[00:29:33] couples therapy

[00:29:33] you've got individual

[00:29:34] one individual two

[00:29:35] and then the kind of

[00:29:37] entity which is the

[00:29:38] third the relationship

[00:29:39] itself you've created

[00:29:40] in the dynamic

[00:29:40] so if you're

[00:29:41] struggling with that

[00:29:42] that might be

[00:29:42] something you know

[00:29:43] I don't need to go

[00:29:44] to therapy with you

[00:29:45] and again therapy is

[00:29:46] not the only route

[00:29:46] but it can be super

[00:29:48] helpful if you're

[00:29:49] struggling with a

[00:29:49] feeling maybe go talk

[00:29:50] to someone about it

[00:29:51] right and it could

[00:29:52] be a few sessions

[00:29:52] it doesn't have to

[00:29:53] be over the course

[00:29:54] of two years

[00:29:55] I think it's a

[00:29:56] you put it in a

[00:29:57] very interesting way

[00:29:58] this concept of the

[00:29:59] relationship is the

[00:30:00] third entity

[00:30:00] because you are two

[00:30:02] individuals who've

[00:30:03] decided to merge

[00:30:05] into like one entity

[00:30:08] of some kind

[00:30:09] but for the most

[00:30:10] part you're you

[00:30:11] still have your

[00:30:11] individual needs

[00:30:12] wants ways of

[00:30:13] approaching things

[00:30:14] and if you're not

[00:30:16] grounded in yourself

[00:30:18] on an individual

[00:30:20] level you're bringing

[00:30:20] all that instability

[00:30:22] into the relationship

[00:30:25] and the way you

[00:30:26] talked about the

[00:30:27] partner you know

[00:30:29] accusing the oh

[00:30:30] you're just jealous

[00:30:30] or oh you know

[00:30:31] you're just angry

[00:30:32] in a very negative

[00:30:33] way it makes me

[00:30:35] wonder what level

[00:30:36] of responsibility

[00:30:37] falls on the

[00:30:38] partner to

[00:30:40] because like in

[00:30:41] that scenario

[00:30:42] I've been in

[00:30:43] relationships where

[00:30:43] I've had that

[00:30:44] and I've been in

[00:30:45] relationships with

[00:30:46] you're not feeling

[00:30:48] you're feeling

[00:30:48] something right now

[00:30:49] and you should

[00:30:50] probably try to

[00:30:50] work through it

[00:30:51] so that we can

[00:30:51] actually have a

[00:30:52] meaningful conversation

[00:30:54] those relationships

[00:30:56] always perform

[00:30:57] better in my

[00:30:58] experience the ones

[00:30:59] that were like oh

[00:30:59] you're just being

[00:31:00] jealous actually

[00:31:01] made me angry

[00:31:02] yeah and I think

[00:31:03] it also depends

[00:31:04] on how you

[00:31:05] enacted how you

[00:31:06] responded to

[00:31:07] jealousy right

[00:31:08] so if I'm just

[00:31:08] feeling away and

[00:31:10] you're accusing me

[00:31:10] of it so again

[00:31:11] more context

[00:31:12] more nuance

[00:31:12] that could be

[00:31:13] problematic whereas

[00:31:14] if you are jealous

[00:31:15] and you're lashing

[00:31:16] out at someone

[00:31:16] if you're jealous

[00:31:17] and withdrawing

[00:31:18] then I think

[00:31:19] they of course

[00:31:21] should address

[00:31:21] your behavior

[00:31:22] but they're seeing

[00:31:23] it rooted in

[00:31:23] this feeling right

[00:31:24] they're maybe

[00:31:25] helping you along

[00:31:26] the way but as

[00:31:27] you said causing

[00:31:27] more harm getting

[00:31:28] you nobody wants

[00:31:29] to be told they're

[00:31:30] angry when they're

[00:31:30] angry no one

[00:31:31] wants to be told

[00:31:32] to relax when

[00:31:32] they're activated

[00:31:33] right and so

[00:31:35] again I think the

[00:31:37] other thing is we

[00:31:38] don't have to take

[00:31:38] on our partner's

[00:31:39] feelings right like

[00:31:40] if I'm not feeling

[00:31:41] great about something

[00:31:42] it's not necessarily

[00:31:44] Brandon's job to

[00:31:45] take care of it

[00:31:46] but oftentimes we

[00:31:47] create dynamics where

[00:31:48] we feel that

[00:31:49] responsibility and I

[00:31:50] can admit that we

[00:31:51] have that dynamic

[00:31:52] where if I'm upset

[00:31:53] Brandon really wants

[00:31:54] to fix it even if

[00:31:55] it's not related to

[00:31:56] him he's very focused

[00:31:58] on taking care of

[00:31:59] me and of course

[00:31:59] it's the most

[00:32:01] lovely supportive

[00:32:01] thing ever and we

[00:32:03] have to set limits on

[00:32:05] it because I'm gonna

[00:32:06] have days where I'm

[00:32:07] struggling and he

[00:32:09] has to be able to

[00:32:10] emotionally differentiate

[00:32:12] so that he isn't

[00:32:13] pulled down by my

[00:32:14] struggle or you know

[00:32:15] in on the other side

[00:32:17] right if he's you know

[00:32:18] negative about

[00:32:19] something and I I

[00:32:20] can get very

[00:32:20] frustrated with

[00:32:21] negativity I have to

[00:32:22] let that go and say

[00:32:23] you know what that's

[00:32:24] the way he's gonna

[00:32:24] be and there is going

[00:32:26] to be some

[00:32:27] differentiation here

[00:32:28] like you'll say

[00:32:28] you'll hear language

[00:32:29] of codependency

[00:32:30] tossed around but

[00:32:31] I'm careful with that

[00:32:32] because we are

[00:32:34] social creatures and

[00:32:36] we are absolutely

[00:32:36] affected by the people

[00:32:37] around us especially

[00:32:38] an intimate partner

[00:32:39] or anybody you live

[00:32:40] with whoever your

[00:32:41] family unit is and

[00:32:43] so of course if

[00:32:44] somebody's angry we

[00:32:45] know that emotions

[00:32:45] can be contagious

[00:32:47] of course we're

[00:32:48] affected by it but

[00:32:49] we also have to do

[00:32:49] our own job of

[00:32:50] emotional differentiation

[00:32:51] and saying okay I'm

[00:32:52] not gonna let this

[00:32:54] overtake whatever I'm

[00:32:55] focused on today

[00:32:57] as you were talking

[00:32:58] I was thinking about

[00:32:59] my relationship with

[00:33:00] Mila and between

[00:33:01] the two of us I

[00:33:03] have very strong

[00:33:04] emotions about

[00:33:06] things it's just I'm

[00:33:07] wired that way if I

[00:33:08] feel a certain way

[00:33:09] about something I

[00:33:10] don't do a very good

[00:33:11] job hiding it if

[00:33:13] I'm unhappy with

[00:33:14] something or something

[00:33:15] upsets me or and

[00:33:17] I've been trying to

[00:33:18] get better at not

[00:33:21] necessarily regulating

[00:33:22] it because for a long

[00:33:23] time I had subscribed

[00:33:24] to the idea of you

[00:33:25] just don't feel your

[00:33:27] emotions you bury

[00:33:28] them and then it

[00:33:29] got to a point where

[00:33:30] I'm just feeling all

[00:33:31] my emotions and I

[00:33:32] need to make sure that

[00:33:33] I do that in

[00:33:33] moderation and in a

[00:33:35] way that's healthier

[00:33:35] so I'm constantly

[00:33:37] trying to tell that

[00:33:37] balance between you

[00:33:39] know feeling the

[00:33:40] emotion but not

[00:33:41] letting the emotion

[00:33:42] get so strong that

[00:33:43] it now takes over the

[00:33:45] mood the conversation

[00:33:46] whatever we're doing

[00:33:47] at that time it's a

[00:33:49] constant you know

[00:33:52] seesaw effect if you

[00:33:53] will yeah and I

[00:33:55] think that there is

[00:33:56] such a focus on

[00:33:58] feeling your feelings

[00:33:59] processing your

[00:34:00] feelings working on

[00:34:01] your feelings and we

[00:34:03] can't do that 24-7

[00:34:04] and we can't expect

[00:34:05] the other person to be

[00:34:06] the receiver of all

[00:34:07] of that I think in our

[00:34:08] last episode together

[00:34:09] you talked about how

[00:34:10] we depend on our

[00:34:11] partners to be our

[00:34:13] friend our confidant

[00:34:14] our romantic partner

[00:34:16] our co-parent etc and

[00:34:18] it's funny those exact

[00:34:19] words are burned in my

[00:34:21] mind where every time

[00:34:22] I think okay I am

[00:34:23] now moving towards

[00:34:24] putting a lot on

[00:34:26] Mila that I need to

[00:34:27] now you know I have

[00:34:29] friends I have other

[00:34:29] outlets I need to use

[00:34:31] those outlets let's do

[00:34:33] that that's a huge deal

[00:34:35] especially in male

[00:34:36] female hetero

[00:34:37] relationships because we

[00:34:39] do know that women

[00:34:40] tend to and of course

[00:34:41] there are exceptions but

[00:34:42] overall women tend to

[00:34:43] have more sources of

[00:34:45] emotional support and

[00:34:47] there tends to be an

[00:34:49] overload or an

[00:34:50] imbalance where men in

[00:34:53] relationships with women

[00:34:54] will put a lot of that

[00:34:55] emotion right they may

[00:34:56] not on their partner and

[00:34:57] they may not have those

[00:34:58] outlets and I'm we're

[00:34:59] seeing a huge shift so

[00:35:00] anytime people talk about

[00:35:02] data like even me saying

[00:35:03] that women tend to have

[00:35:04] more social supports we're

[00:35:05] seeing we're seeing

[00:35:06] shifts right and the

[00:35:07] data is always lagging a

[00:35:08] little bit I work only

[00:35:10] with folks who run

[00:35:11] businesses right and own

[00:35:12] businesses and it skews

[00:35:14] heavily toward men it's

[00:35:16] probably about 80 20 in

[00:35:17] terms of the clients and

[00:35:19] these men are part of an

[00:35:20] organization that offers

[00:35:22] these formal support

[00:35:24] groups related to self

[00:35:25] business and family and

[00:35:27] so I see them in many

[00:35:29] ways as exceptional

[00:35:30] because they have these

[00:35:31] groups with whom they

[00:35:32] meet in a very

[00:35:33] structured and serious

[00:35:34] and meaningful fashion

[00:35:35] once a month and so a

[00:35:37] lot of the data that I

[00:35:38] work with that is

[00:35:39] gendered I have to

[00:35:40] adjust for them because

[00:35:41] they have far more

[00:35:43] meaningful emotional

[00:35:45] support because of

[00:35:47] these groups they're

[00:35:47] working with and I

[00:35:48] think it makes them

[00:35:49] better people it

[00:35:50] obviously makes them

[00:35:51] better business leaders

[00:35:52] from the outcomes we're

[00:35:53] seeing and it

[00:35:54] definitely makes them

[00:35:54] better partners so when

[00:35:56] people think about being

[00:35:57] a better partner they

[00:35:58] often think of offering

[00:35:59] practical support or

[00:36:01] buying gifts or you

[00:36:03] know giving words of

[00:36:03] affirmation and all of

[00:36:05] those actions are really

[00:36:07] valuable but also it's

[00:36:09] about working on

[00:36:10] yourself and your

[00:36:10] entire I guess holistic

[00:36:13] approach to life as

[00:36:14] opposed to just

[00:36:15] leaning on your

[00:36:16] partner for everything

[00:36:17] and I get it you like

[00:36:18] that person you love

[00:36:19] that person you feel

[00:36:20] safe with that person

[00:36:22] and they may be the

[00:36:23] biggest part of your

[00:36:24] life in many people's

[00:36:25] cases that is true but

[00:36:27] we have to kind of set

[00:36:28] some limits when it

[00:36:30] feels like it's becoming

[00:36:30] too much and it's I

[00:36:32] think it's amazing that

[00:36:32] you're self-aware enough

[00:36:33] to know that and I hope

[00:36:35] that that's a model for

[00:36:36] people to say okay am I

[00:36:37] putting too much on this

[00:36:38] one person and we see

[00:36:40] that in business right I

[00:36:41] see that because I work

[00:36:42] with business partners

[00:36:43] as well who are not in

[00:36:44] romantic relationships

[00:36:45] together and I really

[00:36:46] see an imbalance when

[00:36:49] one part one of the

[00:36:50] business partners has

[00:36:51] more support more

[00:36:52] generally in life than

[00:36:53] the other because the

[00:36:55] other is coming to the

[00:36:56] business and looking for

[00:36:58] emotional validation

[00:36:59] psychological support

[00:37:01] you know social support

[00:37:02] in the business or with

[00:37:04] the partner whereas the

[00:37:05] other one has all these

[00:37:06] other rich sources of

[00:37:07] support.

[00:37:09] What's the key to a

[00:37:10] a long-lasting

[00:37:11] relationship?

[00:37:13] Why do people stay in

[00:37:15] relationships if they're

[00:37:17] unhappy?

[00:37:18] Well those are two very

[00:37:19] different questions I'd

[00:37:20] love to talk about the

[00:37:21] second one but it ties to

[00:37:23] the first one because I

[00:37:24] do think we have to stop

[00:37:25] measuring relationships in

[00:37:27] longevity and measure

[00:37:28] them in quality.

[00:37:30] When people hear that I've

[00:37:31] been with Brandon for so

[00:37:32] long they're like oh my

[00:37:33] god congrats and I mean I

[00:37:35] do feel like it's amazing

[00:37:36] and enriching and I feel

[00:37:38] super lucky to be going

[00:37:39] through my life with this

[00:37:40] guy he's just lovely.

[00:37:42] Brandon is fantastic.

[00:37:43] I only remember him the

[00:37:44] one time and I fell in

[00:37:45] love with the guy.

[00:37:46] He's so nice.

[00:37:47] Everybody likes Brandon

[00:37:48] better than me and I'm

[00:37:49] here for it like he is

[00:37:50] better than me and he

[00:37:52] makes me want to be as

[00:37:53] good as him.

[00:37:54] He really is incredible

[00:37:57] but by virtue of knowing

[00:37:59] how many years we've

[00:37:59] spent together to me

[00:38:01] doesn't really speak to

[00:38:02] the quality of the

[00:38:03] relationship so I think

[00:38:04] that we need to start

[00:38:04] looking at relational

[00:38:05] quality over relationship

[00:38:07] longevity.

[00:38:08] So my question would be

[00:38:09] what's the key to a

[00:38:10] fulfilling relationship

[00:38:11] and it definitely varies

[00:38:12] from person to person

[00:38:14] and couple to couple

[00:38:16] but I think what a lot of

[00:38:18] people are lacking

[00:38:19] when you ask about the

[00:38:20] folks who stay together

[00:38:22] even though they're

[00:38:23] miserable is intent.

[00:38:24] I think that one of the

[00:38:27] keys and I can't break it

[00:38:28] down to you know one

[00:38:29] key but one key is being

[00:38:31] intentional about your

[00:38:33] relationship.

[00:38:34] having some sort of a

[00:38:36] plan and I don't mean a

[00:38:37] strict business plan that

[00:38:38] you must stick to but

[00:38:40] really knowing your why.

[00:38:42] Why are we together?

[00:38:43] Why do I want to be with

[00:38:44] this person?

[00:38:45] When people are

[00:38:46] struggling in a

[00:38:47] relationship my first

[00:38:49] question is not why are

[00:38:50] you struggling?

[00:38:51] My question is why do

[00:38:52] you want to repair this?

[00:38:53] Like why is this valuable

[00:38:55] to you?

[00:38:56] And so tied into intent is

[00:38:57] understanding why this

[00:39:00] person is so important to

[00:39:02] you.

[00:39:02] Is it because you met 20

[00:39:03] years ago and you've just

[00:39:04] been together?

[00:39:06] Is it because you've put in

[00:39:07] all this effort so you might

[00:39:08] as well stick it out?

[00:39:09] Or is it because I really

[00:39:11] like this person?

[00:39:12] And so I always value like

[00:39:14] over love.

[00:39:15] Because love is a and of

[00:39:17] course there's you know it's

[00:39:18] fairly abstract to define

[00:39:20] these terms but you want to

[00:39:21] like this person.

[00:39:23] Yeah.

[00:39:23] You want to admire this

[00:39:25] person and be drawn to

[00:39:26] spending time with them

[00:39:27] because in their presence

[00:39:29] you feel at ease or you

[00:39:31] feel joy or you feel you

[00:39:33] know I think about what I

[00:39:34] like in my relationship and

[00:39:36] it's that there's always

[00:39:36] laughter and there's always

[00:39:38] joy and there's always

[00:39:39] just this richness where I

[00:39:40] want to be near him.

[00:39:42] Not all the time like I

[00:39:43] need my space too but I'm

[00:39:45] drawn to that.

[00:39:46] Yes I love him.

[00:39:47] Of course I love him so

[00:39:48] deeply I want him to just

[00:39:49] have the best life ever

[00:39:50] whatever that means to

[00:39:51] him.

[00:39:51] Right.

[00:39:52] It feels like I don't

[00:39:53] have children which you

[00:39:54] know is more rare but

[00:39:55] becoming more common for

[00:39:57] women my age but I love

[00:40:00] him deeply and it feels

[00:40:01] like a love the way I

[00:40:02] imagine a parent loves a

[00:40:03] child like the way my not

[00:40:04] all parents obviously but

[00:40:05] my mom the way my mom

[00:40:07] loves me she just wants me

[00:40:08] to have the best life and

[00:40:10] that's how I feel about

[00:40:11] Brendan and he definitely

[00:40:12] feels that way toward me

[00:40:13] and he's really I think

[00:40:15] expressed that over the

[00:40:17] many years we've been

[00:40:18] together and I've I took

[00:40:19] longer to come to the

[00:40:20] table and really understand

[00:40:21] that so yes I love him.

[00:40:23] But the key to me is

[00:40:25] that I really like him.

[00:40:26] I like spending time with

[00:40:27] him.

[00:40:27] I like working on projects

[00:40:28] whether like we work in

[00:40:29] business together with him.

[00:40:31] I like traveling with

[00:40:32] him.

[00:40:32] I like sitting next to him.

[00:40:33] I like when we're apart.

[00:40:35] I like that he's having a

[00:40:36] good time or I'm usually

[00:40:38] having the better time.

[00:40:40] I think like liking your

[00:40:42] partner is super important

[00:40:43] and when people end up in

[00:40:46] these relationships where

[00:40:47] they are miserable

[00:40:48] together I think they've

[00:40:49] stopped liking each other.

[00:40:51] They may still love each

[00:40:52] other in that they care about

[00:40:53] one another but they don't

[00:40:54] really like each other and

[00:40:55] there are so many reasons

[00:40:56] why people stay together

[00:40:57] when they're miserable.

[00:40:59] Sometimes it has to do with

[00:41:00] stigma and social pressure.

[00:41:03] The idea of breaking up is

[00:41:04] seen as a failure whereas the

[00:41:05] idea of staying together is a

[00:41:07] success which is exactly why I

[00:41:08] think we need to eradicate the

[00:41:09] notion that longevity is the

[00:41:11] measure of the relationship.

[00:41:12] Is it a great relationship

[00:41:14] because you've been together

[00:41:15] 20 years or is it a great

[00:41:16] relationship because you love

[00:41:18] life together?

[00:41:18] You live your best lives

[00:41:20] together.

[00:41:21] So what's the point in staying

[00:41:22] together for 5, 10, 15, 20

[00:41:24] years if you don't like each

[00:41:25] other?

[00:41:25] But I see them as no longer

[00:41:28] liking one another.

[00:41:29] Right?

[00:41:30] Like they're just unhappy but

[00:41:32] they love each other and they

[00:41:34] feel connected in some way or

[00:41:36] they're fearful.

[00:41:37] Right?

[00:41:37] People stay because they're

[00:41:38] fearful.

[00:41:38] They're fearful of what's out

[00:41:39] there.

[00:41:40] They're fearful of being alone

[00:41:41] which is interesting because

[00:41:43] one of the outcomes of a very

[00:41:46] unhappy relationship is

[00:41:47] loneliness and social

[00:41:49] isolation and oftentimes your

[00:41:50] other periphery or I shouldn't

[00:41:52] say periphery but non-romantic

[00:41:54] relationships also suffer.

[00:41:55] You pull back from your

[00:41:56] friends.

[00:41:57] You pull back from your

[00:41:57] family because you are so

[00:41:59] physically, emotionally and

[00:42:00] practically drained from an

[00:42:02] unhappy relationship.

[00:42:04] I know you asked about the

[00:42:05] you know why they're still

[00:42:06] together but the outcomes of

[00:42:08] staying together in a

[00:42:10] miserable relationship are

[00:42:12] physical.

[00:42:13] Right?

[00:42:13] Everything from cardiovascular

[00:42:15] disease to poor sleep to blood

[00:42:18] pressure.

[00:42:18] All of these negative health

[00:42:20] outcomes are tied to unhappy

[00:42:22] marriage.

[00:42:23] I mostly have marital research

[00:42:25] but marriage doesn't matter

[00:42:26] you're living together it's a

[00:42:27] relationship.

[00:42:27] So we've got physical, we've

[00:42:28] got psychological toll of

[00:42:30] course.

[00:42:30] We see higher rates of

[00:42:31] depression, anxiety, distress.

[00:42:34] Folks living with chronic

[00:42:35] stress as we know.

[00:42:37] The physical toll that it takes

[00:42:38] on your body.

[00:42:39] Yep.

[00:42:39] We cannot discount that.

[00:42:41] There are financial costs not

[00:42:43] to breaking up, yes to

[00:42:44] breaking up but also to

[00:42:45] staying together when you're

[00:42:47] unhappy.

[00:42:47] We know that people who

[00:42:48] experience lower marital

[00:42:49] satisfaction, higher marital

[00:42:51] strife also run into

[00:42:52] financial issues because they

[00:42:53] have difficulty communicating

[00:42:54] with one another.

[00:42:55] So usually the research goes in

[00:42:56] the other way and they say

[00:42:58] that money problems lead to

[00:43:00] relationship problems but

[00:43:01] there's also evidence showing

[00:43:02] that relationship problems

[00:43:03] also lead to financial

[00:43:04] problems.

[00:43:11] relationships are very

[00:43:13] serious not just around

[00:43:14] productivity and satisfaction

[00:43:16] but practical elements like

[00:43:17] absenteeism, like losing

[00:43:19] your job, like quitting your

[00:43:21] job and so it kind of affects

[00:43:23] every area of our lives if we're

[00:43:27] in unhappy relationships.

[00:43:29] And so I think that in a culture

[00:43:31] that stigmatizes being single

[00:43:32] we think that you're going to

[00:43:34] have these negative outcomes if

[00:43:35] you're single but it's you know

[00:43:36] going to probably be healthier to

[00:43:38] not be in a relationship than to

[00:43:40] be in a relationship that is

[00:43:41] causing you physical,

[00:43:42] psychological, financial,

[00:43:43] personal harm.

[00:43:45] So someone's listening and

[00:43:49] watching this they're in a

[00:43:50] relationship married not married

[00:43:51] doesn't matter but they're in a

[00:43:53] relationship and they're

[00:43:54] trying to establish what their

[00:43:57] next step will be.

[00:44:00] They're afraid of the stigmas,

[00:44:03] they're afraid of the

[00:44:04] implications, they've invested so

[00:44:06] much time into something and it

[00:44:08] would feel like a failure to

[00:44:10] finally say it's over.

[00:44:14] What options exist for people

[00:44:16] like that?

[00:44:17] If they're not ready to sort of

[00:44:19] say you know what this is over

[00:44:21] but they can't stay in the same

[00:44:23] state of living.

[00:44:25] Yeah so I'm not here to tell

[00:44:27] people to leave or break up

[00:44:29] because you're in an unhappy

[00:44:31] relationship but I think there

[00:44:33] are a couple things to know.

[00:44:34] One is that it's not going to get

[00:44:35] better on its own.

[00:44:37] You're pretty much guaranteed it's

[00:44:38] probably going to get worse and

[00:44:40] then I usually start with a few

[00:44:42] questions which is that why?

[00:44:44] Right like why do you care about

[00:44:45] this person?

[00:44:45] Why do you value the relationship

[00:44:47] and why do you want to repair it?

[00:44:49] And that helps me to understand

[00:44:51] okay so what are we working with

[00:44:52] here?

[00:44:53] Right and then also how because

[00:44:56] this goes back to feelings I always

[00:44:57] want people to start with

[00:44:58] feelings.

[00:44:58] How are you feeling in this

[00:44:59] relationship and how do you want

[00:45:01] to feel?

[00:45:02] Right so how are you feeling versus

[00:45:03] how do you want to feel?

[00:45:05] And can we make sure we

[00:45:06] differentiate between how you're

[00:45:08] feeling in life and how you're

[00:45:09] feeling in the relationship

[00:45:10] because oftentimes we'll

[00:45:11] experience negative emotions or

[00:45:13] negative experiences right?

[00:45:15] We say I'm unhappy.

[00:45:16] I feel unfulfilled.

[00:45:17] I feel dissatisfied.

[00:45:18] I feel distressed.

[00:45:19] And then we associate it with

[00:45:21] what is proximal.

[00:45:23] So we blame the relationship

[00:45:24] right when really it has to do

[00:45:27] with something else in our lives.

[00:45:28] So are you bringing other stuff

[00:45:30] into the relationship attributing

[00:45:32] this negative feeling experience

[00:45:33] or outcome to the relationship?

[00:45:34] When in fact it may be another

[00:45:36] source.

[00:45:37] So we go to the why and then

[00:45:38] finally the what right?

[00:45:40] So we already talked about you

[00:45:41] know how do you want to feel?

[00:45:42] But also what do you want?

[00:45:44] What is it you specifically want?

[00:45:46] And you can't just say I want a

[00:45:47] happy relationship.

[00:45:48] I mean yeah you can but we're

[00:45:49] going to have to go a bit deeper

[00:45:50] than that.

[00:45:51] It's a little broad.

[00:45:52] Yeah what is it you're looking

[00:45:52] for?

[00:45:53] And then my next question is

[00:45:54] always what are you going to do

[00:45:56] about it?

[00:45:57] Right because you can come to me

[00:45:58] with a list of what you want from

[00:46:00] your partner.

[00:46:01] But your partner again is only half

[00:46:03] of this relational relationship

[00:46:04] dynamic.

[00:46:05] Are there exceptions?

[00:46:06] Of course.

[00:46:07] And it's I shouldn't say that.

[00:46:08] It's not 50-50.

[00:46:09] I'm not saying that every

[00:46:10] relationship is 50-50 in terms of

[00:46:12] problems or in terms of positive

[00:46:14] outcomes.

[00:46:15] But we do want to start with what

[00:46:16] am I going to do about it?

[00:46:17] So I know how I want to feel.

[00:46:19] I know what I want.

[00:46:20] So what am I going to do about

[00:46:21] it?

[00:46:21] And what am I requesting of my

[00:46:23] partner?

[00:46:23] And I know that sounds kind of

[00:46:25] dumbed down or oversimplified but

[00:46:27] that's where I would start in

[00:46:28] terms of solution focused

[00:46:30] approaches to the relationship.

[00:46:32] I think another really important

[00:46:33] question to ask is are you going

[00:46:35] to be okay with the relationship

[00:46:37] being in the state that it is in

[00:46:39] in one year, in 10 years, in 15

[00:46:42] years?

[00:46:43] Because when I think about the

[00:46:44] cases that I'm seeing where people

[00:46:46] are together but really, really

[00:46:48] miserable, if they're able to look

[00:46:51] forward to the future, they know that

[00:46:54] they're probably going to break up

[00:46:55] or they need to fix this.

[00:46:57] And most relationships that I see,

[00:47:00] they can be repaired if both people

[00:47:03] are on board.

[00:47:04] Right?

[00:47:05] Humans, we can do really good things.

[00:47:07] Yeah, when we want to.

[00:47:08] Yeah, we can be better.

[00:47:10] And it can just feel so overwhelming.

[00:47:12] It's like when you have a pile of work

[00:47:14] to do, you can't even start.

[00:47:16] Yeah.

[00:47:16] And I think that's how folks feel in

[00:47:18] relationships because they're unhappy

[00:47:22] but there are so many reasons why

[00:47:24] they're unhappy.

[00:47:24] They're unhappy because of division

[00:47:26] of labor.

[00:47:26] They're unhappy because of specific

[00:47:28] incidents that occurred, maybe

[00:47:30] infidelity.

[00:47:31] They're unhappy because they aren't

[00:47:33] getting the love and validation

[00:47:34] that they need.

[00:47:35] But oftentimes, we say our partners

[00:47:37] aren't giving us something but we're

[00:47:39] not asking them for it.

[00:47:40] We don't even know what it is we

[00:47:41] want.

[00:47:41] So I want to feel loved.

[00:47:43] Okay.

[00:47:43] But what does that look like to me?

[00:47:46] For me, I like to hear it.

[00:47:48] I like physical closeness.

[00:47:50] I like when Brandon carves out quality

[00:47:52] time, right, and shows me that I'm

[00:47:54] a priority.

[00:47:55] And so I can name those things.

[00:47:57] But sometimes people will say, I just,

[00:47:59] I don't feel cared for but I'm unclear

[00:48:01] what it is they want and so I can't

[00:48:03] help them to ask for it if they can't

[00:48:05] verbalize it.

[00:48:06] And I think it's hard.

[00:48:08] You know, we don't have a lot of models

[00:48:09] in terms of what happy and healthy

[00:48:11] relationships look like, right?

[00:48:13] Most of us have only seen intimate

[00:48:15] relationships in two contexts.

[00:48:17] Once with our parents and once with

[00:48:19] ourselves.

[00:48:19] And we've, you know, we created this

[00:48:21] insular domestic sphere where nobody's

[00:48:24] supposed to interfere, right?

[00:48:26] In Western culture.

[00:48:27] Yeah.

[00:48:27] Right?

[00:48:28] Like, oh, don't interfere in other

[00:48:29] people's relationships.

[00:48:30] Actually, all relationships are

[00:48:32] interconnected, right?

[00:48:33] I'm not saying step in and tell

[00:48:34] somebody what they need.

[00:48:36] But in an ideal world, we have enough

[00:48:38] community that all of our relationships

[00:48:40] sort of overlap and we support each

[00:48:42] other.

[00:48:42] And, you know, I come from a culture

[00:48:44] where my generation would live with us,

[00:48:47] right?

[00:48:47] My dad lived with us for a very, very

[00:48:49] long time.

[00:48:49] And so people are intertwined in your

[00:48:52] relationship, the good, the bad, the

[00:48:53] ugly for better or worse.

[00:48:55] But there is some value in that, right?

[00:48:57] To have three, people have three

[00:48:58] generations living in a household.

[00:49:01] And that can be really valuable in

[00:49:03] terms of different sources of support

[00:49:04] and modeling relationships as well.

[00:49:06] Because maybe you had parents who didn't

[00:49:08] communicate very well, but you saw

[00:49:10] your grandparents communicate

[00:49:11] differently.

[00:49:12] I was talking, I had a client the

[00:49:13] other day and she was actually a

[00:49:15] Canadian, but we were overseas.

[00:49:16] She's moved overseas.

[00:49:17] And she was saying that her

[00:49:18] grandparents were the model of

[00:49:21] relationships for her.

[00:49:22] And she said, you know, my grandpa,

[00:49:24] my grandma told me that my grandpa

[00:49:26] made love to him every day into their

[00:49:29] eighties.

[00:49:29] And that doesn't mean sex in one

[00:49:31] specific way, but pleasure and

[00:49:34] physical, physical connection and

[00:49:35] intimacy.

[00:49:36] And she doesn't really want to settle

[00:49:39] for less.

[00:49:39] And it's helped her to build her

[00:49:40] relationships in a way that

[00:49:43] they're fulfilling over time.

[00:49:45] And she's not going to waste her time

[00:49:46] on relationships that aren't.

[00:49:48] I can completely agree with that

[00:49:50] notion of

[00:49:51] seeing a positive model

[00:49:53] for a relationship is

[00:49:57] so important.

[00:49:59] I know growing up, watching my parents

[00:50:01] interact with one another,

[00:50:02] I saw them argue and then I

[00:50:04] would see them make up.

[00:50:05] But I think the biggest thing that

[00:50:07] stuck with me was how they'd make

[00:50:09] each other laugh, like little

[00:50:11] things that they would say to each

[00:50:12] other.

[00:50:13] Or if we were having dinner and it's

[00:50:14] almost like they're having their own

[00:50:16] conversation and saying something to

[00:50:17] each other.

[00:50:18] And I was like, there's something there

[00:50:20] that I don't know about.

[00:50:22] And it's not that I want to know about

[00:50:23] it, but there's just something nice

[00:50:25] about seeing them that way.

[00:50:27] that now I'm, you know, I like that

[00:50:30] I have that with Mila, right?

[00:50:31] Like we could be at a table with

[00:50:33] friends and we can say, you know,

[00:50:36] there's an inside joke of some kind

[00:50:37] and we both start laughing or we just

[00:50:39] look at each other and we know what

[00:50:40] we're thinking type of thing.

[00:50:41] That little love.

[00:50:42] That's a whole other level of

[00:50:43] intimacy I find.

[00:50:45] And it sounds like they liked each

[00:50:46] other.

[00:50:46] Yes.

[00:50:47] Right.

[00:50:47] It wasn't just love.

[00:50:48] It wasn't just partnership.

[00:50:49] There's a like.

[00:50:50] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:50:51] And the like piece, I couldn't agree

[00:50:52] more.

[00:50:53] You really have to like the person.

[00:50:54] And I can remember times where I

[00:50:56] was in a relationship where I was in

[00:50:58] love with the idea of the person.

[00:51:00] But when I look back on them, I look

[00:51:03] back on the relationship rather.

[00:51:05] If I was sitting in front of that

[00:51:07] person today and they were still as

[00:51:08] they were, I would not like them.

[00:51:10] I would not want to have coffee, lunch.

[00:51:13] I would not want to engage in a

[00:51:14] conversation.

[00:51:15] They just weren't nice people.

[00:51:17] And as you were talking about, you

[00:51:19] know, looking at your surroundings,

[00:51:23] if you're in an unhappy relationship,

[00:51:25] it made me wonder if that's why

[00:51:26] there's been such a rise in these

[00:51:30] sort of social creators, like the

[00:51:34] perfect relationship online.

[00:51:35] Right.

[00:51:36] Because it's resonating with people.

[00:51:39] They're looking at that and going, I

[00:51:41] wish I could have that.

[00:51:44] Yeah, it's aspirational, as

[00:51:45] unrealistic as the models we're

[00:51:47] seeing may be because we're seeing

[00:51:49] them on average eight seconds

[00:51:51] online.

[00:51:52] It is aspirational because we do want

[00:51:54] happy relationships and it doesn't

[00:51:56] have to be with a partner.

[00:51:58] Right.

[00:51:58] It can be with friends.

[00:51:59] It could be with family.

[00:52:01] I think about cultures where our

[00:52:02] cousins are so important to us.

[00:52:04] We do know that happy relationships

[00:52:06] are the cornerstone of a happy life.

[00:52:09] Right.

[00:52:10] We've talked about, I'm sure, the

[00:52:11] Harvard study where the number one

[00:52:13] predictor of relational or of life

[00:52:15] satisfaction and well-being at age 80

[00:52:18] is the quality of our relationships, our

[00:52:19] social ties at age 50.

[00:52:21] So most of us have some time to work

[00:52:23] on that.

[00:52:23] But yeah, relationships are a big part

[00:52:26] of our lives.

[00:52:27] They are determining factors in our

[00:52:30] health, mental and physical, in our

[00:52:31] wealth, in our well-being, in our

[00:52:33] life satisfaction.

[00:52:34] We need happy relationships.

[00:52:35] I don't think that there's any asset

[00:52:39] that requires or is deserving of more

[00:52:42] investment than relationships.

[00:52:43] And I don't just mean romantic ones.

[00:52:45] I think about everything, you know, that

[00:52:48] we go through in life.

[00:52:49] And when you have social support and

[00:52:52] love and care and community, it's

[00:52:55] different than going through it alone.

[00:52:57] And that's kind of one of those

[00:52:58] phenomenons we're seeing in unhappy

[00:53:00] marriages or relationships where

[00:53:02] they're not alone, but they are

[00:53:03] lonely.

[00:53:04] They're experiencing the symptoms and

[00:53:07] the negative repercussions of

[00:53:09] loneliness.

[00:53:10] And I think we're afraid to go tell

[00:53:12] people that we're unhappy in our

[00:53:13] relationships or we do it in a

[00:53:15] in a joking way or we wait until it

[00:53:18] gets really, really bad.

[00:53:20] And we're willing to admit we don't

[00:53:22] even like our partner anymore, but we

[00:53:23] kind of accept it.

[00:53:24] And, you know, we talk about emotions

[00:53:26] being contagious and there's been some

[00:53:28] studies suggesting that divorce is

[00:53:29] contagious just in that folks tend to

[00:53:32] arrive at divorce at the same time in

[00:53:33] their social circles and their age

[00:53:35] groups.

[00:53:36] But certainly a comment on that.

[00:53:37] Yeah.

[00:53:37] I really do think that that's more of

[00:53:39] a speaking of permission.

[00:53:41] It's showing other people who may be

[00:53:43] in a similar situation that this is

[00:53:46] OK to go through the process.

[00:53:48] It's normal seeing someone else go

[00:53:50] through a divorce going, you know, I've

[00:53:52] been thinking about this for some

[00:53:54] time, but I've never really had the

[00:53:56] courage to pull the trigger because I

[00:53:57] don't know what's involved.

[00:53:58] I don't know.

[00:53:59] And suddenly you see someone within your

[00:54:00] social circle go through it and you

[00:54:01] go, it's bad.

[00:54:03] I mean, it's it's generally for the

[00:54:04] most part a bad experience.

[00:54:05] But seeing someone go through it

[00:54:08] and then seeing how they can come out

[00:54:10] the other side, you go, I do want

[00:54:12] that.

[00:54:13] And that's if you've, you know,

[00:54:14] obviously you've decided that's it for

[00:54:16] the relationship.

[00:54:17] And I think that's probably one of the

[00:54:19] biggest factors.

[00:54:20] I know in my last relationship, the,

[00:54:22] you know, the idea of, you know, what

[00:54:24] does that look like?

[00:54:26] You mean I have to go back 10 years

[00:54:30] and figure out all my finances and

[00:54:31] I don't know where this is.

[00:54:32] I don't know what that is.

[00:54:33] And it's a very daunting thing.

[00:54:35] And I can understand why people would

[00:54:37] be hesitant to break up because it's

[00:54:38] almost easier to stay in the

[00:54:40] relationship than to go through that

[00:54:42] really rough two, three years of

[00:54:44] divorce.

[00:54:46] So it was a negative.

[00:54:47] It wasn't a positive breakup because

[00:54:49] some breakups are positive.

[00:54:51] Absolutely.

[00:54:52] That's the other thing I'm seeing is

[00:54:53] people who have decided because we're

[00:54:56] seeing a rise in silver divorce.

[00:54:57] So divorce post 50, post 55.

[00:54:59] People have decided, like, I really

[00:55:01] like this person.

[00:55:02] I really care about this person.

[00:55:04] And this isn't really how I want to

[00:55:05] live my life.

[00:55:06] Yeah.

[00:55:07] Right.

[00:55:07] And so we're not making the best life

[00:55:09] partners.

[00:55:10] And maybe we will stay friends.

[00:55:12] And many of them do.

[00:55:13] I mean, there are rich friendships

[00:55:15] between exes.

[00:55:16] Yeah.

[00:55:17] You know, I can speak personally.

[00:55:19] You know, my dad requires some care

[00:55:21] and he's divorced from my mom and I

[00:55:23] have a stepdad.

[00:55:23] And my mom and my stepdad are

[00:55:26] supporting a lot.

[00:55:27] I won't say too much more.

[00:55:28] I don't want to, you know, be unfair

[00:55:29] to my dad.

[00:55:30] But they do so much.

[00:55:32] And the staff who are helping out

[00:55:34] are always not understanding that my

[00:55:37] mom is the ex.

[00:55:38] Right.

[00:55:38] They're like, but she's so she's always

[00:55:40] here.

[00:55:40] She's always doing all these things,

[00:55:41] but she just cares.

[00:55:42] She's a caring person and their

[00:55:44] relationship is different than it was

[00:55:46] 40, 50 years ago, however long ago.

[00:55:49] And there's still love there.

[00:55:50] There's still care.

[00:55:51] And I think that's a really for me,

[00:55:54] that's a really positive model.

[00:55:55] So my parents divorced when I was a

[00:55:56] teenager.

[00:55:57] I think I was in high school and I see

[00:55:58] it as a very positive outcome for

[00:56:00] for everybody.

[00:56:02] It's funny because as you talked about

[00:56:03] breakups, I think a lot of us,

[00:56:05] particularly guys in general, I know

[00:56:07] myself included, had struggled with

[00:56:09] how to break up.

[00:56:11] But we just don't know how to do it

[00:56:13] well.

[00:56:13] And so we do it in a very bad way,

[00:56:16] which tends to

[00:56:19] it tends to really

[00:56:21] what's the word I'm trying to hear

[00:56:22] color how the other person sees

[00:56:24] relationships going forward.

[00:56:26] I mean, I've had scenarios where I

[00:56:28] didn't know how to break up.

[00:56:29] So I just became an asshole until

[00:56:31] she broke up with me.

[00:56:33] And when I look back, I'm like, I was

[00:56:35] an idiot.

[00:56:35] Like, why would I do that to another

[00:56:37] human being?

[00:56:37] Like, I was so unkind.

[00:56:38] It's not that I intentionally did stuff

[00:56:40] it's just I stopped doing the things

[00:56:42] that I knew she liked because I'm like,

[00:56:44] I don't want to give her that message.

[00:56:46] But I didn't have the courage to

[00:56:47] simply say, let's break up.

[00:56:49] And I didn't even know how to say I

[00:56:51] want to break up.

[00:56:51] I was like fearful of, you know,

[00:56:54] causing harm.

[00:56:54] But in essence,

[00:56:57] I ultimately caused more harm by

[00:56:59] doing it that way.

[00:57:00] Yeah, I think you summed it up.

[00:57:01] None of us wants to hurt anybody else

[00:57:03] for the most part.

[00:57:05] And we have to recognize by being unclear,

[00:57:08] by creating space for a connection,

[00:57:10] by giving false hope,

[00:57:12] we're actually being more unkind

[00:57:14] than if we were straightforward.

[00:57:15] But yeah, of course, it's really hard

[00:57:17] to tell somebody,

[00:57:18] I no longer want this, right?

[00:57:21] Because inevitably,

[00:57:22] most people are going to hear that

[00:57:24] as rejection of self.

[00:57:25] I no longer want you.

[00:57:27] Right?

[00:57:28] Whereas if we can reframe

[00:57:29] and understand that not every relationship

[00:57:32] is going to be the perfect fit

[00:57:34] in every possible way.

[00:57:36] So for example,

[00:57:38] I may be able to be friends with someone,

[00:57:40] but I wouldn't want to be romantic partners.

[00:57:42] Or I can be romantic partners with someone,

[00:57:44] but they may not want to be in business with me

[00:57:45] because of the way I operate in business.

[00:57:48] Maybe that's Brandon.

[00:57:50] He'd be smart not to work with me.

[00:57:53] But you can't be everything to everybody.

[00:57:55] And yeah, it is really hard.

[00:57:56] When they talk about breaking up with compassion,

[00:57:59] one of the really important pieces

[00:58:00] is to be clear.

[00:58:02] And I know that I'm definitely guilty of this,

[00:58:04] not in breakups, but in work.

[00:58:07] Sometimes I'll create space for something

[00:58:09] just because I don't want to give a hard no.

[00:58:12] And so I'm dishonestly saying maybe in the future

[00:58:17] when really what I want to be saying is no.

[00:58:19] And that's one of the biggest mistakes

[00:58:21] we make in breakups.

[00:58:22] We create space for a potential reunification

[00:58:25] when it doesn't exist.

[00:58:26] And that, of course, causes more harm.

[00:58:29] Absolutely.

[00:58:29] Right?

[00:58:29] Hope is the, like you give someone hope.

[00:58:32] And I've had that.

[00:58:33] I've been on the receiving end of being broken up with

[00:58:35] and then told, you know, like maybe we can revisit this

[00:58:38] in, you know, a couple of weeks.

[00:58:40] And there I am like checking the calendar,

[00:58:42] like, all right, it's been a couple of weeks.

[00:58:43] Let's have this conversation.

[00:58:44] And then it's just kicking the can further

[00:58:46] and further down the road

[00:58:47] until eventually there's a no.

[00:58:49] And I look back on it and go,

[00:58:50] I was just dragged along the whole time.

[00:58:53] And it speaks to being clear

[00:58:55] and being able to just articulate and communicate that.

[00:58:58] Yeah.

[00:58:59] And that's not an easy thing to do.

[00:59:00] No, no.

[00:59:00] Nobody really wants to give bad news.

[00:59:02] Of course.

[00:59:03] And nobody wants to be the, you know, cause harm.

[00:59:05] And I think we have to maybe talk more about these things.

[00:59:09] I mean, you're creating these conversations

[00:59:10] where we can talk about rejection.

[00:59:12] Right?

[00:59:12] I know last time we talked about rejection,

[00:59:14] being able to manage rejection,

[00:59:16] being a life skill.

[00:59:17] And we can all get better at that.

[00:59:19] Yeah.

[00:59:20] Right?

[00:59:20] And I think that we also need to talk about breakups more

[00:59:24] because there is this, I think,

[00:59:28] drive to celebrate breakups

[00:59:30] and to be strong and to get back out there.

[00:59:32] When sometimes you just,

[00:59:33] you want to sit at home and you want to be upset

[00:59:35] and you want to be hurt.

[00:59:36] And we need to give ourselves space to be those things.

[00:59:38] Absolutely.

[00:59:39] To feel those things.

[00:59:40] Again, without analyzing every feeling.

[00:59:41] I do think we're moving toward overanalyzing feelings.

[00:59:44] And it has to do with, again,

[00:59:46] that I can control anything.

[00:59:48] No.

[00:59:48] Right?

[00:59:48] I can make any relationship work.

[00:59:50] I can make myself feel anything

[00:59:51] when it's just not realistic.

[00:59:53] Absolutely.

[00:59:54] I mean, that's a whole other conversation

[00:59:55] that we can have

[00:59:56] about how we overanalyze everything that we feel.

[00:59:58] And sometimes you just have to actually do the feeling.

[01:00:00] I heard someone talk about it

[01:00:01] from the lens of calling people self-development junkies.

[01:00:05] Yes.

[01:00:05] Where all they want to do is say the right things

[01:00:08] and do the right things,

[01:00:10] but they don't actually ever develop themselves.

[01:00:13] They're just pretending to do the things.

[01:00:17] But that's a whole other conversation.

[01:00:19] I think that takes us back to perfectionism, though.

[01:00:22] Yes.

[01:00:22] Right?

[01:00:22] We want to be the best partners,

[01:00:24] the greatest in business,

[01:00:25] the best friend.

[01:00:26] And you asked about social media,

[01:00:28] and I'm always kind of reticent to vilify social media

[01:00:31] because social media isn't its own entity.

[01:00:33] It's a human creation,

[01:00:34] and humans use it how we use it.

[01:00:36] But I do think that when everything is on broadcast,

[01:00:39] we do feel we need to perform everything.

[01:00:43] Yeah.

[01:00:43] Right?

[01:00:44] So everything is filmed,

[01:00:45] and everything is posted,

[01:00:46] and it's not just consumed by our inner or outer circle.

[01:00:50] A lot of people are hoping that it's consumed

[01:00:52] by the general public.

[01:00:53] And I think that drive can be a lot of pressure.

[01:00:56] And I'm seeing more Gen Z folks

[01:00:58] pulling back from social media.

[01:00:59] I don't have the data on that,

[01:01:00] but I'm meeting so many people

[01:01:01] who are saying I'm not on anymore.

[01:01:02] It's funny because I was just in Iceland,

[01:01:06] and intentionally didn't turn on my data.

[01:01:10] And it was so freeing.

[01:01:11] Just not being able to check,

[01:01:13] not getting the X number of notifications,

[01:01:17] not just from social media,

[01:01:18] but emails and all those things,

[01:01:20] just that constant dinging on the phone.

[01:01:23] And just this morning,

[01:01:25] I had a conversation with a social creator

[01:01:27] who talked about taking a step back from social media

[01:01:29] because it drains him,

[01:01:30] and he just finds himself unhappy doing it.

[01:01:32] He's like, I do this for what exactly?

[01:01:34] I do it for the small dopamine hits,

[01:01:36] and then what?

[01:01:38] He's like, I don't find any passion in this.

[01:01:39] I do it because it's the thing to do.

[01:01:42] And yes, I've got contracts,

[01:01:43] and I could do partnerships and all these things,

[01:01:45] but at the end of the day,

[01:01:46] it's like this doesn't give me any fulfillment.

[01:01:48] And it really is draining

[01:01:49] because that pressure to perform with specific metrics.

[01:01:53] Yes.

[01:01:53] Right?

[01:01:54] If you're a performer on stage,

[01:01:55] you get a rush from it.

[01:01:56] Of course, it's super exciting.

[01:01:58] You get energy from the crowd.

[01:01:59] And yes, okay, you might deal with reviews

[01:02:01] and stuff like that,

[01:02:02] but the way you dance on a given night,

[01:02:04] or I'm a speaker,

[01:02:05] the way I speak on a given night,

[01:02:07] yes, I do get feedback,

[01:02:08] but it's not in likes or comments.

[01:02:11] And I don't have to send it to a client after

[01:02:13] and say, look at the impressions.

[01:02:15] Yes.

[01:02:15] Look at the conversions.

[01:02:16] Look at your ROI.

[01:02:17] So it's a different type of performance

[01:02:19] than, say, a stage performance,

[01:02:20] and it's overwhelming.

[01:02:22] And we have the data showing that, right?

[01:02:24] Depression, anxiety, self-doubt, all of distress.

[01:02:28] I mean, many people,

[01:02:29] even people who don't do it for work,

[01:02:31] experience distress

[01:02:32] when they don't get the traction

[01:02:34] that they're looking for.

[01:02:35] Absolutely.

[01:02:36] So you had your data off

[01:02:37] and now you have it back on, obviously,

[01:02:39] because you're back in Toronto.

[01:02:40] But I think there's something

[01:02:41] really important there

[01:02:42] because when we think about technology

[01:02:44] in relationships

[01:02:45] and we talk about technoference,

[01:02:47] the role that technology plays

[01:02:48] in interfering with human connection,

[01:02:50] I'm often asking people

[01:02:52] to make small changes

[01:02:53] to the way technology enhances

[01:02:55] or detracts from their relationships.

[01:02:57] And the challenge is

[01:02:59] that most of us look at tech

[01:03:01] as an all or nothing approach.

[01:03:02] So if I ask, for example,

[01:03:04] would you be willing to not sleep

[01:03:06] with your phone in the bedroom?

[01:03:08] That's really scary for people.

[01:03:09] But I'm like, would you try one night?

[01:03:11] Everybody is willing to try one night.

[01:03:13] And then we try and work them up

[01:03:15] to two nights

[01:03:15] and then three nights.

[01:03:17] And maybe we don't get to seven nights.

[01:03:18] It doesn't,

[01:03:19] you don't never have your phone

[01:03:20] in the bedroom.

[01:03:21] But just to know that sometimes

[01:03:22] you can go to bed

[01:03:23] without scrolling on your phone

[01:03:26] is life-changing.

[01:03:27] So you went to Iceland.

[01:03:28] How long were you there?

[01:03:29] I was only there about

[01:03:30] three and a half, four days.

[01:03:31] You just got back, right?

[01:03:32] Like you just flew in right now.

[01:03:33] I literally like last night.

[01:03:34] And I'm still like on Icelandic time,

[01:03:37] which is not that bad.

[01:03:38] It's only four hours ahead.

[01:03:39] But it was an adventure.

[01:03:41] I did a lot

[01:03:42] in a very small window of time.

[01:03:44] And I'm like,

[01:03:45] I could use a nap.

[01:03:48] I bet.

[01:03:48] I bet.

[01:03:49] But I mean,

[01:03:50] now you have it back on.

[01:03:51] So you did it for a little bit

[01:03:52] and then you come back to it.

[01:03:53] And that's what I'm always trying

[01:03:54] to get clients to do with technology

[01:03:56] when technology is a source

[01:03:57] of conflict in relationships,

[01:03:58] which is pretty much

[01:03:59] every couple I ever work with

[01:04:00] is arguing about technology.

[01:04:02] Right.

[01:04:02] And like, you know,

[01:04:03] my partner's on their phone too much

[01:04:05] or my partner's playing

[01:04:06] these game too much

[01:04:07] or he doesn't pay attention to me

[01:04:08] because he's always checking his email

[01:04:10] or she's using it at the dinner table,

[01:04:12] whatever the case may be.

[01:04:14] And so I ask them

[01:04:15] to set small limits.

[01:04:16] That's one of the takeaways

[01:04:17] from almost every workshop I run.

[01:04:19] What one thing

[01:04:20] are you willing to do this week

[01:04:22] to reduce the interference

[01:04:23] of technology in your relationship?

[01:04:24] And we can all benefit from that.

[01:04:26] And I always need the reminder.

[01:04:28] Right.

[01:04:28] I'm not asking clients

[01:04:29] to do so many things.

[01:04:30] I obviously don't do all of them.

[01:04:31] Yeah.

[01:04:31] Right.

[01:04:31] Like I would be exhausted

[01:04:32] and it would be too much.

[01:04:34] But sometimes I need the reminder

[01:04:36] that I don't need to check my phone

[01:04:38] at this time of night.

[01:04:39] I don't need to leave my ringer on.

[01:04:41] There's there can always be an emergency

[01:04:42] and my life is full of emergencies

[01:04:44] right now with my family situation.

[01:04:45] But also I need to sleep

[01:04:47] and I can't help somebody

[01:04:48] if I'm completely empty,

[01:04:50] sleep deprived.

[01:04:51] Yeah.

[01:04:52] Running on empty.

[01:04:52] But that's a that's a big thing

[01:04:53] if folks can think about

[01:04:54] is there one thing you can do

[01:04:55] to change the way you use technology.

[01:04:57] I love that.

[01:04:58] I'm going to implement that actually.

[01:05:00] Are you going to not take your phone

[01:05:01] in the bedroom tonight?

[01:05:02] I'm going to try that.

[01:05:03] Yeah.

[01:05:03] Just tonight.

[01:05:03] And I'll text you afterwards

[01:05:04] and tell you how it goes.

[01:05:05] Great.

[01:05:05] Yeah.

[01:05:06] Jess, thank you so much.

[01:05:08] That flew by.

[01:05:09] It flies every single time.

[01:05:10] Nice to chat with you.

[01:05:11] And we could do a whole other hour

[01:05:12] if we wanted to.

[01:05:12] But this was great.

[01:05:15] Thank you so much.

[01:05:16] Pleasure.

[01:05:18] Enjoy the travels.

[01:05:20] Thank you.

[01:05:20] Yeah.

[01:05:20] I'm up to I'm off to Spain

[01:05:22] in a few days

[01:05:22] and then Singapore.

[01:05:24] Very nice.

[01:05:24] I've never been to Singapore.

[01:05:25] It's on my list.

[01:05:26] I'm looking for it.

[01:05:27] It's work.

[01:05:28] So I'm looking for it.

[01:05:30] Thank you so much for everything.

[01:05:31] Say hi to Brendan for me.

[01:05:32] I will.

[01:05:33] And best of luck with the family stuff.

[01:05:35] I hope it all goes well.

[01:05:36] Thank you.

[01:05:37] Thank you, Jess.

[01:05:38] Thanks, everyone.